has anyone ever used the Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer for a ar? Pro's vs con's? Likes, dislikes? I am considering putting one into my DPMS 308. Any constructive input would be helpful and appreciated.
Thanks
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AR-10 buffer
- Thread starter grmroper001
- Start date
Re: AR-10 buffer
They work, but as far as a perceived difference in recoil is concerned...it is pretty subjective. I really can't tell you that they are worth the $90 (give or take) that they cost.
As for the proper size...they make them specifically for the LR-308 DPMS depending on the stock setup you are running.
If you have a collapsible stock installed on an AR-15 buffer tube, you'll need the short model. Otherwise, if you have a proper AR-10 collapsible stock buffer tube (about 3/4" longer than the AR-15 tube), then you need the standard length collapsible stock buffer for the AR-10 is needed.
They work, but as far as a perceived difference in recoil is concerned...it is pretty subjective. I really can't tell you that they are worth the $90 (give or take) that they cost.
As for the proper size...they make them specifically for the LR-308 DPMS depending on the stock setup you are running.
If you have a collapsible stock installed on an AR-15 buffer tube, you'll need the short model. Otherwise, if you have a proper AR-10 collapsible stock buffer tube (about 3/4" longer than the AR-15 tube), then you need the standard length collapsible stock buffer for the AR-10 is needed.
Re: AR-10 buffer
I have heard some anectdotes of these buffers leaking and causing problems. Do a quick Google search, as I do not remember the specific. The consensus as I understand it is that the benefits are not worth the cost.
I have heard some anectdotes of these buffers leaking and causing problems. Do a quick Google search, as I do not remember the specific. The consensus as I understand it is that the benefits are not worth the cost.
Re: AR-10 buffer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has anyone ever used the Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer for a ar? Pro's vs con's? Likes, dislikes? I am considering putting one into my DPMS 308. Any constructive input would be helpful and appreciated.</div></div>
Generally unless there is a problem you are attempting to solve, it's not a good idea.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has anyone ever used the Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer for a ar? Pro's vs con's? Likes, dislikes? I am considering putting one into my DPMS 308. Any constructive input would be helpful and appreciated.</div></div>
Generally unless there is a problem you are attempting to solve, it's not a good idea.
Re: AR-10 buffer
i would be more inclined....no actually RUN OUT AND GET, a tubb flat chrome silicate spring to see advantage and see some satifying results......ALL my AR's got 'em
i would be more inclined....no actually RUN OUT AND GET, a tubb flat chrome silicate spring to see advantage and see some satifying results......ALL my AR's got 'em
Re: AR-10 buffer
I agree with Boltripper and install Mr. Tubb's Carrier Weight System in the AR10's while you're at it.
okie
I agree with Boltripper and install Mr. Tubb's Carrier Weight System in the AR10's while you're at it.
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
Great input, thanks gents.
The tubb cws says it works with both ar-15 and ar-10's Is the hole in the carrier where the carrier weight holder slides into the same size on ar-10's as it is in ar-15's?
Great input, thanks gents.
The tubb cws says it works with both ar-15 and ar-10's Is the hole in the carrier where the carrier weight holder slides into the same size on ar-10's as it is in ar-15's?
Re: AR-10 buffer
Think the hole size is the same but parts will be different I'm pretty sure. Just order for the rifle you are needing it for and all will be well. Put his spring and CWS in my AR10T, been running it for several years and am completely satisfied. Cycle has been tamed considerably and the rifle is much easier on brass. Its a very good setup and well worth the $ IMO. Mr. Tubbs tends to make things that work.
okie
Think the hole size is the same but parts will be different I'm pretty sure. Just order for the rifle you are needing it for and all will be well. Put his spring and CWS in my AR10T, been running it for several years and am completely satisfied. Cycle has been tamed considerably and the rifle is much easier on brass. Its a very good setup and well worth the $ IMO. Mr. Tubbs tends to make things that work.
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
I'm assuming your question is to the OP? If to me....I have no problem, not relating to this topic anyway
.
okie
I'm assuming your question is to the OP? If to me....I have no problem, not relating to this topic anyway
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info.
Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info.
Re: AR-10 buffer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> CWS™ fits all AR15 bolt carriers, and also those for the AR-10 and SR-25.</div></div>
Very start of the description for them. Looks like it just sticks a weight in the end of the bolt carrier to slow it down a bit. Really simple and cool idea. As far as reducing muzzle climb/jump etc maybe a muzzle brake if you don't have one already? JP rifle brakes are my favorite.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> CWS™ fits all AR15 bolt carriers, and also those for the AR-10 and SR-25.</div></div>
Very start of the description for them. Looks like it just sticks a weight in the end of the bolt carrier to slow it down a bit. Really simple and cool idea. As far as reducing muzzle climb/jump etc maybe a muzzle brake if you don't have one already? JP rifle brakes are my favorite.
Re: AR-10 buffer
Okie, It was to the OP.
The CWS adds mass to the BCG which will slow down the BCG, this is usually used when a rifle is overgassed, which most are. It is a poor bandaid. The added weight also adds to, and lengthens, the triple recoil impulse (1-upon firing, 2-BCG impact on rear of Buffer tube, 3- when BCG slams home), which is what makes these guns hard to shoot well (and seems to be what you are trying to tame, ie, staying on target).
An adjustable gas block is the better solution (but also a bandaid for a too large gas port), as it allows you to effectively make the gas port smaller, allowing you to adjust the amount of gas used to cycle the BCG. BUT, if you shoot a lot of different loads and bullet weights, you may have to adjust it once in a while.
A really good muzzlebrake has no downside (except blast), and if you start there, it may help with some of the recoil and staying on target issues you have.
A good muzzle brake and an Adjustable Gas Block will make it seem like a different gun and the AGB will help with the brass damage issues as well.
A lighter bullet (155 gr.if .308) will also help.
Tubb makes the best buffer spring on the market, and it will last forever, but won't make any difference in the issues you mentioned.
BTW: If this is a SHTF combat gun, I recco NONE OF THE ABOVE, if it works well, leave it alone, as all these mods MAY reduce reliability at some point.
Okie, It was to the OP.
The CWS adds mass to the BCG which will slow down the BCG, this is usually used when a rifle is overgassed, which most are. It is a poor bandaid. The added weight also adds to, and lengthens, the triple recoil impulse (1-upon firing, 2-BCG impact on rear of Buffer tube, 3- when BCG slams home), which is what makes these guns hard to shoot well (and seems to be what you are trying to tame, ie, staying on target).
An adjustable gas block is the better solution (but also a bandaid for a too large gas port), as it allows you to effectively make the gas port smaller, allowing you to adjust the amount of gas used to cycle the BCG. BUT, if you shoot a lot of different loads and bullet weights, you may have to adjust it once in a while.
A really good muzzlebrake has no downside (except blast), and if you start there, it may help with some of the recoil and staying on target issues you have.
A good muzzle brake and an Adjustable Gas Block will make it seem like a different gun and the AGB will help with the brass damage issues as well.
A lighter bullet (155 gr.if .308) will also help.
Tubb makes the best buffer spring on the market, and it will last forever, but won't make any difference in the issues you mentioned.
BTW: If this is a SHTF combat gun, I recco NONE OF THE ABOVE, if it works well, leave it alone, as all these mods MAY reduce reliability at some point.
Re: AR-10 buffer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The CWS adds mass to the BCG which will slow down the BCG, this is usually used when a rifle is overgassed, which most are. It is a poor bandaid. The added weight also adds to, and lengthens, the triple recoil impulse (1-upon firing, 2-BCG impact on rear of Buffer tube, 3- when BCG slams home), which is what makes these guns hard to shoot well (and seems to be what you are trying to tame, ie, staying on target). </div></div>
Well, that all sounds good but fact is the results are just about the opposite. The impulse, impact and "slamming home" is all decreased, not increased because of the reduction of speed on the carrier group. And its done on any load or bullet weight. Its the violent cycle rate of these rifles that causes the problems and slowing down the carrier does a lot to solve them, its not just a bandaid fix. Its permanant and works beutifully. I agree the adj. gas block is a good addition also but the first thing I would do just from a reliability stand point is change out the buffer spring with the Tubbs. I'd do this wether the rifle is reliable now or not just to head off problems that may come 5K rounds down the road. This is my opinion from quite a bit of trigger time with these rifles and not just reading online. Not saying thats where you got yours just letting you know I'm not just talking out my ass. To each his own but the CWS and the spring go in my AR10's and I have no doubt it is a very good improvement. Good shootin.
okie
PS. Muzzle brakes do diddly for reliability and even less for any brass issues.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The CWS adds mass to the BCG which will slow down the BCG, this is usually used when a rifle is overgassed, which most are. It is a poor bandaid. The added weight also adds to, and lengthens, the triple recoil impulse (1-upon firing, 2-BCG impact on rear of Buffer tube, 3- when BCG slams home), which is what makes these guns hard to shoot well (and seems to be what you are trying to tame, ie, staying on target). </div></div>
Well, that all sounds good but fact is the results are just about the opposite. The impulse, impact and "slamming home" is all decreased, not increased because of the reduction of speed on the carrier group. And its done on any load or bullet weight. Its the violent cycle rate of these rifles that causes the problems and slowing down the carrier does a lot to solve them, its not just a bandaid fix. Its permanant and works beutifully. I agree the adj. gas block is a good addition also but the first thing I would do just from a reliability stand point is change out the buffer spring with the Tubbs. I'd do this wether the rifle is reliable now or not just to head off problems that may come 5K rounds down the road. This is my opinion from quite a bit of trigger time with these rifles and not just reading online. Not saying thats where you got yours just letting you know I'm not just talking out my ass. To each his own but the CWS and the spring go in my AR10's and I have no doubt it is a very good improvement. Good shootin.
okie
PS. Muzzle brakes do diddly for reliability and even less for any brass issues.
Re: AR-10 buffer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info. </div></div>
Superior Shooting Systems (where the link leads) is Tubbs's deal and that's where I made my order, been a long time ago. I made a call to them, I remember they are very knowledgable and helpful with any questions.
okie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components. I could find no info on the AR-10 specific carier weight system. The one I see offered from Tubb was for AR-15, perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Okie, if you can see your way to pass along which components you ordered and from where it would be appreciated.
Thanks all for the info. </div></div>
Superior Shooting Systems (where the link leads) is Tubbs's deal and that's where I made my order, been a long time ago. I made a call to them, I remember they are very knowledgable and helpful with any questions.
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
Okie,
Here's what the OP wanted to fix....
"Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components."
Muzzle jump and less abusive to brass and rifle.
That's why I recco'd a good muzzle brake, an AGB, and lighter bullets, as it will improve his problems.
If he had a reliability problem my answer would have been much different.
I have had, used, and made many Tubb style weights. I, personally, hate all the weight moving around when I shoot.
My knowledge didn't come from the internet, I've been repairing and building AR's since I bought my first SP1 in 1981 for $249. I was also a USAR Ordnance Officer for 8 years, so I might have been schooled and worked on a few.
I had one of the first production guns when Armalite brought out the AR10, I had to make my own mags from M14 mags, as they were very hard to get at the time.
Anyway.....
Did the CWS help your problem? I'm sure it did.
Would it help the OP? Maybe, maybe not, recoil feel is very subjective.......Brass, probably..... Gun wear, unknown.
Will my 3 recco's help the OP? Yes...Unquestionably.
Okie,
Here's what the OP wanted to fix....
"Not a specific problem per se just to tame muzzle jump a bit to watch hits as well as to be a bit less abusive to brass as well as rifle components."
Muzzle jump and less abusive to brass and rifle.
That's why I recco'd a good muzzle brake, an AGB, and lighter bullets, as it will improve his problems.
If he had a reliability problem my answer would have been much different.
I have had, used, and made many Tubb style weights. I, personally, hate all the weight moving around when I shoot.
My knowledge didn't come from the internet, I've been repairing and building AR's since I bought my first SP1 in 1981 for $249. I was also a USAR Ordnance Officer for 8 years, so I might have been schooled and worked on a few.
I had one of the first production guns when Armalite brought out the AR10, I had to make my own mags from M14 mags, as they were very hard to get at the time.
Anyway.....
Did the CWS help your problem? I'm sure it did.
Would it help the OP? Maybe, maybe not, recoil feel is very subjective.......Brass, probably..... Gun wear, unknown.
Will my 3 recco's help the OP? Yes...Unquestionably.
Re: AR-10 buffer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has anyone ever used the Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer for a ar? Pro's vs con's? Likes, dislikes? I am considering putting one into my DPMS 308. Any constructive input would be helpful and appreciated.
Thanks </div></div>
THIS was the OP...... These buffers in question are made to tame recoil, as is the CWS. And BTW, reducing reciol, reduces muzzle jump also. Like I said, I was NOT saying you had no experience and I made that very clear. Thanks for listing your credentials anyway. I was just letting you know that I am not an online sniper (or a sniper of any kind for that matter) and have some actual experience with this system and these modifications. If you hate all the weight in these systems, why dont you try removing some of it? I promise you, you wont like those results in these big AR's either. My point about reliability was made for the future, thus, my 5K round quote and I still say the Tubb spring would be my first mod.
I agree felt recoil is very subjective. I've fired AR10's side by side with and without the CWS, thats how I came to my opinion. I just cant see that there is anyway that taming that reciol wont help with wear and tear on the carrier group, how can that be an unknown?
BTW, what the hell is "recco's" and "recco'd"? Is that "recommended"? Sorry, I'm just not up on this stuff I guess. If thats what it is then, sorry brother, but your opinion, like mine, is ALWAYS questionable.....especially in a sport like this.
okie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grmroper001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has anyone ever used the Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer for a ar? Pro's vs con's? Likes, dislikes? I am considering putting one into my DPMS 308. Any constructive input would be helpful and appreciated.
Thanks </div></div>
THIS was the OP...... These buffers in question are made to tame recoil, as is the CWS. And BTW, reducing reciol, reduces muzzle jump also. Like I said, I was NOT saying you had no experience and I made that very clear. Thanks for listing your credentials anyway. I was just letting you know that I am not an online sniper (or a sniper of any kind for that matter) and have some actual experience with this system and these modifications. If you hate all the weight in these systems, why dont you try removing some of it? I promise you, you wont like those results in these big AR's either. My point about reliability was made for the future, thus, my 5K round quote and I still say the Tubb spring would be my first mod.
I agree felt recoil is very subjective. I've fired AR10's side by side with and without the CWS, thats how I came to my opinion. I just cant see that there is anyway that taming that reciol wont help with wear and tear on the carrier group, how can that be an unknown?
BTW, what the hell is "recco's" and "recco'd"? Is that "recommended"? Sorry, I'm just not up on this stuff I guess. If thats what it is then, sorry brother, but your opinion, like mine, is ALWAYS questionable.....especially in a sport like this.
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
Okie,
After sleeping on it, and rereading it again this morning, I apologize, as my tone in the last post seemed to be saying you were absolutely WRONG, and you are not, as MANY people like what the CWS does. It definitely does CHANGE and LENGTHEN the recoil impulse.
We cannot change physics, when we shoot a gun, the same amount of recoil happens if we are shooting the same load (and the gun weight stays the same), all we can do is CHANGE the way the recoil feels and move the pulse around.
You have to be careful when you start changing things in a semi-auto, as the gun uses these forces to function, everything changes something.
I always recco (MEND....
....sorry) a good muzzle break first, as it is the closest to a "free" (ie, little change to system function) recoil reduction change we can get, and a good one makes a large difference. The brake works by using the expelled gas and unburnt powder ejecta to pull the gun forward BEFORE the recoil impulse has completed it's rearward movement.
What the Tubb weight does is help compensate for an overgassed gun by slowing down the speed of the BCG by adding mass (as you know), but this makes the entire gun "move" over a lot longer time frame.
First impressions are "WOW, it kicks less" (which, as we know from our physics lesson, is impossible).....BUT.....if you are trying to spot your hits, it makes it more difficult, as the gun is moving around over a longer time frame, and you are trying to control this longer lasting impulse.
That's why a bolt gun is easier to shoot, and spot hits with.
The QUICKER the impulse is over, the easier it is to shoot & spot hits.
Look at all the 3 gun shooters, they try to MAXIMIZE their muzzle brake effectiveness (with light, fast bullets) and MINIMIZE the moving mass of their firearms (lightened slides and BCG's)..... They do this to GET THEIR SIGHTS BACK ON TARGET as quickly as possible.
Our sport (or sniping comps, anyway) is moving in the same direction (ie. note the winning guns in all the comps shoot light, fast bullets) The reason AR's don't win in our sport isn't the accuracy, it's the recoil movement that makes all the fundamentals harder to execute consistently.
And here's a post of mine where I'm doing what you asked, we'll see how it works in a few weeks when my bbl gets here....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...362#Post1659362
To the OP, I hope we haven't totally trashed your thread, if so, I apologize. And to make it clear, I would (and have) used the Tubb weights before I would use one of the Hydraulic buffers!
And Okie, I think we can agree to disagree, and hope we get to shoot together sometime and we can compare guns (and recoil)!
Okie,
After sleeping on it, and rereading it again this morning, I apologize, as my tone in the last post seemed to be saying you were absolutely WRONG, and you are not, as MANY people like what the CWS does. It definitely does CHANGE and LENGTHEN the recoil impulse.
We cannot change physics, when we shoot a gun, the same amount of recoil happens if we are shooting the same load (and the gun weight stays the same), all we can do is CHANGE the way the recoil feels and move the pulse around.
You have to be careful when you start changing things in a semi-auto, as the gun uses these forces to function, everything changes something.
I always recco (MEND....
....sorry) a good muzzle break first, as it is the closest to a "free" (ie, little change to system function) recoil reduction change we can get, and a good one makes a large difference. The brake works by using the expelled gas and unburnt powder ejecta to pull the gun forward BEFORE the recoil impulse has completed it's rearward movement.What the Tubb weight does is help compensate for an overgassed gun by slowing down the speed of the BCG by adding mass (as you know), but this makes the entire gun "move" over a lot longer time frame.
First impressions are "WOW, it kicks less" (which, as we know from our physics lesson, is impossible).....BUT.....if you are trying to spot your hits, it makes it more difficult, as the gun is moving around over a longer time frame, and you are trying to control this longer lasting impulse.
That's why a bolt gun is easier to shoot, and spot hits with.
The QUICKER the impulse is over, the easier it is to shoot & spot hits.
Look at all the 3 gun shooters, they try to MAXIMIZE their muzzle brake effectiveness (with light, fast bullets) and MINIMIZE the moving mass of their firearms (lightened slides and BCG's)..... They do this to GET THEIR SIGHTS BACK ON TARGET as quickly as possible.
Our sport (or sniping comps, anyway) is moving in the same direction (ie. note the winning guns in all the comps shoot light, fast bullets) The reason AR's don't win in our sport isn't the accuracy, it's the recoil movement that makes all the fundamentals harder to execute consistently.
And here's a post of mine where I'm doing what you asked, we'll see how it works in a few weeks when my bbl gets here....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...362#Post1659362
To the OP, I hope we haven't totally trashed your thread, if so, I apologize. And to make it clear, I would (and have) used the Tubb weights before I would use one of the Hydraulic buffers!
And Okie, I think we can agree to disagree, and hope we get to shoot together sometime and we can compare guns (and recoil)!
Re: AR-10 buffer
Hey, its all good Hellbender and I enjoyed the conversation. I promise I will take time to reconsider my thoughts on the subject, like I said, I'm no pro such as yourself and am always learning so, who knows.. I hope the OP got some info he can use from our discussion. Shoot well and be safe.
okie
Hey, its all good Hellbender and I enjoyed the conversation. I promise I will take time to reconsider my thoughts on the subject, like I said, I'm no pro such as yourself and am always learning so, who knows.. I hope the OP got some info he can use from our discussion. Shoot well and be safe.
okie
Re: AR-10 buffer
Alot of info to process, thanks guys. Previous to this I was just a little puzzled, I now realized that I am truly lost.
Alot of info to process, thanks guys. Previous to this I was just a little puzzled, I now realized that I am truly lost.
