AR accuracy expectations

[tna9001]

Hello, All.

I've recently gotten into the AR game. Previously, I shot precision rifles so I have those fundamentals down (I'm a 1/2 MOA shooter at 100 yards and just over 1 MOA at 1,000). I've got a couple of mid-priced rifles DD V7 with a 16" barrel and an Armalite M15 Competition rifle with a 13.5" barrel, and I've got a great scope, a K16i. I spent a couple days shooting with a friend who has a Sig M400 Elite and my results are very similar with all three rifles. I shot a few 1 MOA 5 shot groups but most were between 2-3 MOA and that is consistent with a variety of ammo. So, assuming I've got the fundamentals down shooting a bolt gun, where do I start to improve with an AR? (I'm assuming from conversations I've had and what I've read that the three rifles above are 1 MOA platforms)

Thanks in Advance!

 

[Dirty8404]

First, don’t trust what you read.

Second, handloads are where it’s at.

Third, gas guns are harder to shoot well than bolts. Follow-through is god with a gas gun.

More magnification than 6x will be helpful for small group shooting as well. I use 10x but 15 would be better.

 

[combatgrunt84]

I have a DPMS GII Recon I routinely get 1.25 to 1.5in groups that’s honest for 3shots. I’m no expert with a bolt gun about the same size for me.

 

[supratt96]

For me, the primary differences in how I shoot an AR compared to a bolt gun are how I hold the rifle and trigger technique. With a bolt gun, you generally want to hold the rifle gently. With an AR, a firm hold is best. Pull the rifle into your shoulder with your support hand.

As for trigger technique, again use a firm grip with the first knuckle of your trigger finger as the contact point instead of the tip of your finger as you would with a bolt gun. Pull "through" the trigger and hold for a split second after the shot breaks. This will help you achieve full follow through which is much more important with an AR than with a bolt gun.

The rest is just practice, practice, practice.

 

[Dirty8404]

hold for a split second after the shot breaks.

I’m going to disagree here, or possibly you just didn’t state it clearly.

The reset should be after the complete recoil cycle is finished, a bystander should hear the ‘click’ of the reset after the shot.

 

[tna9001]

Thanks for the feedback. I can definitely pay more attention to follow through, my last rifle weighed almost 20lbs with scope and bipod so I feel like the AR's just jump all around. I'm cognizant of the limitations of the scope I'm using, it's got a 1 MOA floating dot so I've been using the top of the dot as an aimpoint to help.

 

[tna9001]

For me, the primary differences in how I shoot an AR compared to a bolt gun are how I hold the rifle and trigger technique. With a bolt gun, you generally want to hold the rifle gently. With an AR, a firm hold is best. Pull the rifle into your shoulder with your support hand.

As for trigger technique, again use a firm grip with the first knuckle of your trigger finger as the contact point instead of the tip of your finger as you would with a bolt gun. Pull "through" the trigger and hold for a split second after the shot breaks. This will help you achieve full follow through which is much more important with an AR than with a bolt gun.

The rest is just practice, practice, practice.

This is interesting, I'll give it a shot, I've been using the pad of my finger.

 

[flyer]

Most factory built ARs are designed to be a bullet hose, not a match rifle.

When you want an accurate AR it's probably going to have a barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber and be neither chrome lined nor hammer forged.

You'd know if that's what you've got.

It isn't necessarily an expensive barrel, I've heard of some Wilson Arms barrels that do very well but some of the more expensive stuff is guaranteed.

I learned to shoot with semis so it seems funny when people say they are tougher to shoot accurately, I think they are only difficult to shoot accurately when the potential of the ammo, barrel and iron sights/scope fall below your expectations.

 

[Precision Underground]

Hello, All.

I've recently gotten into the AR game. Previously, I shot precision rifles so I have those fundamentals down (I'm a 1/2 MOA shooter at 100 yards and just over 1 MOA at 1,000). I've got a couple of mid-priced rifles DD V7 with a 16" barrel and an Armalite M15 Competition rifle with a 13.5" barrel, and I've got a great scope, a K16i. I spent a couple days shooting with a friend who has a Sig M400 Elite and my results are very similar with all three rifles. I shot a few 1 MOA 5 shot groups but most were between 2-3 MOA and that is consistent with a variety of ammo. So, assuming I've got the fundamentals down shooting a bolt gun, where do I start to improve with an AR? (I'm assuming from conversations I've had and what I've read that the three rifles above are 1 MOA platforms)

Thanks in Advance!

What ammo have you tried?

 

[tna9001]

Today's AR platform rifle can rival an equivalent quality bolt action in the accuracy department. With that said, they are harder to shoot well than a bolt action for a few reasons. AR's are hammer fired and bolt actions are striker fired. Because of this, AR's have a longer lock time. An AR has 3 recoil pulses. First, when the round goes bang, second when the bolt carrier reaches the end of its rearward travel, and third when it slams home loading the next round.
Because of these and more things, a lot of the stuff we can get away with with a bolt gun won't cut it with a semi auto.

I put a Geissele SSA-E trigger in the DD. Do you think a trigger with a faster lock time would make a noticeable difference?

 

[Precision Underground]

I put a Geissele SSA-E trigger in the DD. Do you think a trigger with a faster lock time would make a noticeable difference?

Doubtful that you would see any difference from the lock time itself, maybe from a mechanically better trigger. Shooting small groups with an AR can be a finicky thing. How are you set up? Bench? Prone? Bags? Bipod?

 

[tna9001]

What ammo have you tried?

Hornady:

Black 75g BTHP
Frontier 55g
Super performance Match 75g BTHP
Super performance Match 73g ELD
Critical Defense 73g FTX

Federal:

American eagle 55g
TRU 55g

 

[tna9001]

Doubtful that you would see any difference from the lock time itself, maybe from a mechanically better trigger. Shooting small groups with an AR can be a finicky thing. How are you set up? Bench? Prone? Bags? Bipod?

On a bench using a bipod and rear bag. I'm really just looking for a load (factory) that the DD V7 likes but at 2-3 MOA it seems to be a picky eater, or perhaps I just suck for now.

 

[flyer]

If you can't make an AR shoot after you do a 15 minute trigger job, it's probably not going to shoot with a fancy trigger.

 

[Precision Underground]

Hornady:

Black 75g BTHP
Frontier 55g
Super performance Match 75g BTHP
Super performance Match 73g ELD
Critical Defense 73g FTX

Federal:

American eagle 55g
TRU 55g

Step one, try some federal gold medal 77gr smk ammo. My brother has a DD and it is well under MOA with FGMM. I don't shoot much factory ammo but from what I have shot I have never seen hornady stuff shoot great out of an AR.

 

[tna9001]

Step one, try some federal gold medal 77gr smk ammo. My brother has a DD and it is well under MOA with FGMM. I don't shoot much factory ammo but from what I have shot I have never seen hornady stuff shoot great out of an AR.

Will do, thank you!

 

[Potss]

DDs are not precision firearms (at least not the one you have). All but a few purpose built ones are generally 1.5-3moa guns, even with good ammo. The problem you are having OP is that you are trying to squeeze precision out of a mass produced CHF barrel with a large chamber that has had no care taken to ensure it is accurate. A nicer trigger will help a bit, but nothing will address the barrel, chamber, bolt & BCG fit, and so on.

If you want consistent sub-moa performance (5x5 minimum measure) out of your AR, you will need to build or buy an AR that at a minimum has a good barrel (great relatively inexpensive option is a Rock Creek from Craddock Precision for $285).

 

[Precision Underground]

DDs are not precision firearms (at least not the one you have). All but a few purpose built ones are generally 1.5-3moa guns, even with good ammo. The problem you are having OP is that you are trying to squeeze precision out of a mass produced CHF barrel with a large chamber that has had no care taken to ensure it is accurate. A nicer trigger will help a bit, but nothing will address the barrel, chamber, bolt & BCG fit, and so on.

If you want consistent sub-moa performance (5x5 minimum measure) out of your AR, you will need to build or buy an AR that at a minimum has a good barrel (great relatively inexpensive option is a Rock Creek from Craddock Precision for $285).

Nothing wrong with hammer forged, they can be just as accurate as anything. I agree that OPs gun isnt exactly built for accuracy though. My brother's rifle is under DDs hunting line and I think has the nicer barrel in it and maybe was a little more geared toward accuracy. It is a laser with handloads. Still, I would throw some FGMM into OPs gun just to see what it would do. My brothers gun shot the 60g Vmax pretty good but it did not like the heavier hornady stuff. It loves 77 smks.

 

[tna9001]

Maybe my expectations (1 MOA) are unrealistic. My next step, if I can't find a load that produces acceptable accuracy is to replace the barrel with a Compass Lake Engineering barrel from a Bartlin blank. (This is what I really want to do anyway as I'm sure you all can understand). My intent was to find the configuration with the least compromises but a rifle that won't shoot 1 MOA consistently just isn't interesting to me.

I now have some FGMM 77g on the way as well as some Black Hills with the same bullet.

 

[Precision Underground]

Will do, thank you!

And there is nothing better to check your technique than to mix snap caps or dud rounds into the mag so you have no idea where they are and fire a few strings. When it goes "click" rather than bang you will know real quick if you are moving or not. You can be very surprised at how much you are moving in anticipation of the shot. It is a natural thing for your body to tense or move in anticipation of the explosion that you know is about to happen right next your face. You have to train away your instinct to tense up and avoid the "danger". Until you can pull the trigger and hear the click without budging, physically or mentally, you still have work to do.

I have a shooting buddy and when he's having a bad day I can take his mag and I don't even have to actually put the dud rounds in. If he thinks they are there his groups instantly shrink because his focus is to move the trigger only and not physically OR MENTALLY anticipate the sound or recoil.

 

[tna9001]

And there is nothing better to check your technique than to mix snap caps or dud rounds into the mag so you have no idea where they are and fire a few strings. When it goes "click" rather than bang you will know real quick if you are moving or not. You can be very surprised at how much you are moving in anticipation of the shot. It is a natural thing for your body to tense or move in anticipation of the explosion that you know is about to happen right next your face. You have to train away your instinct to tense up and avoid the "danger". Until you can pull the trigger and hear the click without budging, physically or mentally, you still have work to do.

I have a shooting buddy and when he's having a bad day I can take his mag and I don't even have to actually put the dud rounds in. If he thinks they are there his groups instantly shrink because his focus is to move the trigger only and not physically OR MENTALLY anticipate the sound or recoil.

I think you are on to something. I think you can get away with more with a heavy precision rifle than you can a 7lb AR, It takes little to disrupt the AR.

 

[bigjake83]

Maybe my expectations (1 MOA) are unrealistic. My next step, if I can't find a load that produces acceptable accuracy is to replace the barrel with a Compass Lake Engineering barrel from a Bartlin blank. (This is what I really want to do anyway as I'm sure you all can understand). My intent was to find the configuration with the least compromises but a rifle that won't shoot 1 MOA consistently just isn't interesting to me.

Your expectations are extremely realistic. 1 MOA is pretty easy to achieve, the rifle below is a 7lb rifle without Optics.

 

[bigjake83]

 

[Potss]

Yes, CHF can produce very accurate barrels, but DD's aren't using their machines that way on their mass produced barrels/rifles. Bigjake, love how that rifle looks FYI.

 

[Tims]

View attachment 6939658View attachment 6939659

bigjake, who's stock is that?

 

[bigjake83]

bigjake, who's stock is that?

It's a Luth MBA1

 

[bigjake83]

The KAC has the Luth MBA3

 

[Precision Underground]

MBA 3 is the best AR stock out there IMO. My home brew wears one, I ditched the monopod though. Shoots pretty straight for an AR!

 

[Soulezoo]

Your expectations are extremely realistic. 1 MOA is pretty easy to achieve, the rifle below is a 7lb rifle without Optics.



View attachment 6939654

Agree with this. I have 4 AR's that are all under 1 moa for 5 shot groups. A BCM with stainless barrel, Noveske, Wilson and one I built with Noveske 3rd gen upper/lower with a F1 barrel. Use quality parts and ammo and you'll see the results.

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

I've had much better luck out of every ar I've had with magtech 77gr or the fc262 stuff. 5x criterion barrels I've had have all been sub .75 moa with those loads.

 

[bigjake83]

MBA 3 is the best AR stock out there IMO. My home brew wears one, I ditched the monopod though. Shoots pretty straight for an AR!
View attachment 6940216
View attachment 6940217

That's pretty good shooting.

 

[Precision Underground]

That's pretty good shooting.

Thank you sir! That’s about as good as I can do with an AR.

 

[Triple D]

Thank you sir! That’s about as good as I can do with an AR.

What barrel is that? Hand guard?

 

[Precision Underground]

What barrel is that? Hand guard?

It's a Larue barrel and Mega MKM upper/handguard. I ran a full length YHM riser between the back up sights because it looks cool lol. I won't be able to resist turning it into one for much longer. Too tempting when all it takes is a barrel, bolt, and mag. I'll prob sell the Larue with the Specwar brake if you are interested. Has about 700 rounds on it.

Edit, just realized @Bulldog Firearms is in the thread. Thanks for the good deal on the MKM bro!

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Rock River Arms claims 1 MOA accuracy is the norm. I consistency get MOA if not sub MOA accuracy out of my 16" barreled AR at 100 yards. At longer distances it opens up but generally I get 1 MOA out of it. No floating barrel - no fancy stuff except some extra optics. It's role is a "Street Broom" and in it's intended role I am highly accurate out to 300+ yards.

But I don't expect much more than 1 MOA out to 300 yards nor do I need it. If I need precision then I go to my bolt action. I have seen guys locally shooting handloaded 5.56 out to 600 yards with sub MOA performance and kudos to them. My AR is a Street Broom and 1 MOA at up to 300 yards is plenty good for me. Then again I'm not trying to win or rack up trophies .

VooDoo



100 yard

 

[Precision Underground]

Rock River Arms claims 1 MOA accuracy is the norm. I consistency get MOA if not sub MOA accuracy out of my 16" barreled AR at 100 yards. At longer distances it opens up but generally I get 1 MOA out of it. No floating barrel - no fancy stuff except some extra optics. It's role is a "Street Broom" and in it's intended role I am highly accurate out to 300+ yards.

View attachment 6940330

But I don't expect much more than 1 MOA out to 300 yards nor do I need it. If I need precision then I go to my bolt action. I have seen guys locally shooting handloaded 5.56 out to 600 yards with sub MOA performance and kudos to them. My AR is a Street Broom and 1 MOA at up to 300 yards is plenty good for me. Then again I'm not trying to win or rack up trophies .

VooDoo



100 yard

That's a good looking AR sir. I don't usually like set ups like that but that thing looks bad ass. I have a street broom as well. It's light, has a reflex, and loves to dump mags.

 

[rybe390]

I'd put money into a trigger first and foremost, that and the barrel are the two biggest components of AR accuracy from what I've seen. I'd expect 1" 5 shot groups out of an AR with a decent trigger and barrel, once you find the ammo that it likes. In your DD, I'd get a mix of 75-77 grain ammo and shoot a bunch of groups. My gun LOVES hornady frontier 75gr, shot it out to 900 yards a few weeks ago.

I have a DDm4v5 with a geissele SSA-E that shoots MOA or better 5 shots consistently, and a DIY 6.5 grendel with an aero precision barrel that shoots 1" 10 shot groups consistently with handloads, and sub MOA 5 shots with federal berger match. Neither rifle is particularly special, but they have decent barrels and good triggers.

Hopefully you can drop in a solid trigger and try some heavier ammo, and shrink those average groups closer to 1"!

Grendel:
DD:
Targets n things: http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/1528514349251_target_image.jpg

 

[tna9001]

I’ve got the same trigger in my DD. I’ve got some Black Hills and Federal gold medal on the way. I’m hoping one of those loads will do the trick.

 

[chasedeer]

Guess I’m late to the party you all said it all barrel and trigger for masses production would mostly get 1- 3 Moa and Op did good coming from a bolt action

 

[elfster1234]

Cant expect a semi auto to be as accurate as a bolt gun. I’ve seen it over and over. Got to reload and learn to drive a semi auto to get performance. I get amazing performance out of my $1k rock river AR rifles

 

[Mike_Honcho]

If you want accuracy you have to reload. The more precise you are, the smaller those groups will be too.

Weigh and sort
Anneal
Size
Flash holes
Pockets
Trim
Powder off press
Make it as straight as possible

 

[flyer]

I'd put money into a trigger first and foremost, that and the barrel are the two biggest components of AR accuracy from what I've seen. I'd expect 1" 5 shot groups out of an AR with a decent trigger and barrel, once you find the ammo that it likes. In your DD, I'd get a mix of 75-77 grain ammo and shoot a bunch of groups. My gun LOVES hornady frontier 75gr, shot it out to 900 yards a few weeks ago.

I have a DDm4v5 with a geissele SSA-E that shoots MOA or better 5 shots consistently, and a DIY 6.5 grendel with an aero precision barrel that shoots 1" 10 shot groups consistently with handloads, and sub MOA 5 shots with federal berger match. Neither rifle is particularly special, but they have decent barrels and good triggers.

Hopefully you can drop in a solid trigger and try some heavier ammo, and shrink those average groups closer to 1"!

Grendel:
DD:
Targets n things: http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/1528514349251_target_image.jpg

I have to disagree a bit. Put money in to your BCG first, that's a reliability issue, the difference between a bottom of the barrel $60 BCG and an $80-100 high quality BCG will keep you running probably 1-2,000 rounds longer and is less likely to have issues when new. Spend money on the barrel next, this is where you get accuracy. You can spend money on a trigger if you want but a 15 minute trigger job will get you a trigger clean enough to shoot accurately if you do your job.

I do like drop in match triggers but they are not top priority, especially if it eats in to your barrel budget and you should never fail to make sure you have a quality BCG.

 

[bigjake83]

Cant expect a semi auto to be as accurate as a bolt gun. I’ve seen it over and over. Got to reload and learn to drive a semi auto to get performance. I get amazing performance out of my $1k rock river AR rifles

I taught him everything I know...lol?

 

[MTRecon]

My first AR 15 purchased in 1984 is a Colt Sporter II...A2 features except they were using the last the A1 upper receiver and rear sights.

Didn't have high accuracy expectations but with a bipod, wedge to reduce the receiver movement and loaded with handloaded IMI 55 FMJBT and BLC2 it shoots 1" five shot groups at 100 yards using the peep sights. If the handle was removable I'd probably put a high power scope on it.

Not bad for a $475 milspec battle rifle.

 

[rybe390]

I have to disagree a bit. Put money in to your BCG first, that's a reliability issue, the difference between a bottom of the barrel $60 BCG and an $80-100 high quality BCG will keep you running probably 1-2,000 rounds longer and is less likely to have issues when new. Spend money on the barrel next, this is where you get accuracy. You can spend money on a trigger if you want but a 15 minute trigger job will get you a trigger clean enough to shoot accurately if you do your job.

I do like drop in match triggers but they are not top priority, especially if it eats in to your barrel budget and you should never fail to make sure you have a quality BCG.

I guess I assumed that he has a quality BCG, OP said he has a DD and Armalite rifle so I glanced over that. Obviously you don't ever want to go bottom of the barrel , but I'd think that any quality BCG will get you the accuracy you seek. The accuracy difference between bottom of barrel and high end BCG is significantly smaller than the accuracy difference between bottom of barrel and high end barrels, where the real effect on accuracy comes from. So, reliability, sure, but not accuracy. Literally just for the sake of conversation, I'm 0% invested in this opinion haha. I'd still say barrel first, trigger second, if you're talking accuracy.

And while yes, a trigger jobbed trigger can get you where you need to go(and I've gone there too with gritty as hell mil spec), it's a much more enjoyable experience with a good trigger, and you'll be able to focus on other fundamentals. Not saying it's the easy button, it's just less required of you on that specific task, so well worth the money spent.

 

[flyer]

My point was the difference in cost between a shitty BCG and more than good enough is only a few bucks so never skimp there.

As for the trigger, you can get rid of the grit and reduce the pull in to the 5-6lb area with a clean break for essentially $0. That will make you work a little harder but adding $80+ to your barrel budget will probably increase your accuracy potential more, especially if it's going between a basic $150 barrel and a $230 barrel.

If it's shooting so good that you feel the trigger is letting you down after that, it will be pretty easy to justify an $80 Rise trigger or $89 Larue.

If you think you need a $200 competition style trigger to increase your accuracy while you're shooting fast, you probably need a good muzzle brake too.

The worst thing would be a guy who buys a $200 trigger, buys a budget barrel and a garbage bolt.

 

[rybe390]

My point was the difference in cost between a shitty BCG and more than good enough is only a few bucks so never skimp there.

As for the trigger, you can get rid of the grit and reduce the pull in to the 5-6lb area with a clean break for essentially $0. That will make you work a little harder but adding $80+ to your barrel budget will probably increase your accuracy potential more, especially if it's going between a basic $150 barrel and a $230 barrel.

If it's shooting so good that you feel the trigger is letting you down after that, it will be pretty easy to justify an $80 Rise trigger or $89 Larue.

If you think you need a $200 competition style trigger to increase your accuracy while you're shooting fast, you probably need a good muzzle brake too.

The worst thing would be a guy who buys a $200 trigger, buys a budget barrel and a garbage bolt.

Solid point on bcg cost dif, pretty much a no brainer!

If it’s a fixed budget for everything, hell yeah, barrel first. If you’re held back by the trigger, upgrade.

And 100% agreed, the trigger helps you get the accuracy potential of the barrel, can’t help a trash barrel though

 

[JWG]

With your setup, you should expect 1-1.5moa 10-shot groups. This is what I typically average when using a chrome-lined government type profile AR with a LPVO. This is off a front bag at 100 yards, seated, shouldering the rifle. Some ammo doesn't do well though for some guns. For example, I average close to 1moa using 75gr Gold Dot, while 77gr TMK in the same gun never shot below 2.5moa (1/7 twist, and shot fine with MK262). You may have to look around a bit before you find the round your guns like. Gold Dot is actually a great place to start, as I have YET to find a gun that won't eat it with amazingly boring results.

 

[tna9001]

With your setup, you should expect 1-1.5moa 10-shot groups. This is what I typically average when using a chrome-lined government type profile AR with a LPVO. This is off a front bag at 100 yards, seated, shouldering the rifle. Some ammo doesn't do well though for some guns. For example, I average close to 1moa using 75gr Gold Dot, while 77gr TMK in the same gun never shot below 2.5moa (1/7 twist, and shot fine with MK262). You may have to look around a bit before you find the round your guns like. Gold Dot is actually a great place to start, as I have YET to find a gun that won't eat it with amazingly boring results.

I’ve got some Federal gold dot and Black hills, I’ll report back.

 

[tna9001]

I got out to the range today, I was rushed but the results are promising. Since the last outing, I changed the hand grip, stock, and buffer tube, the ergonomics are much better now, the rifle fits me. I was using a bipod and rear bag on a bench. I really like the VLTOR stock with the A5 buffer tube, I didn't shoot the OEM set up back to back but it seems like the rifle is moving around less under recoil. I feel pretty good with this data as a starting point for a factory AR with a 16" barrel especially considering my scope has a 1 MOA center dot. There is more accuracy in the rifle, I've just got to get accustomed to the platform.

Thank you all for the input!

100 yard 5 shot groups:

Federal Gold Medal 77g
.77"

Black Hills 69g
1.0"

Black Hills 77g
.86"

Frontier 55g
1.78"