I'm entertaining the idea of a possible future build here. The idea is to get 44mag perfomance out of a pistol caliber AR without stepping up to the 458 socom/50 Beowolf or the large frame 45-70 equivalents, etc. What I want to know is if a .429 Desert Eagle round will fit in a 10mm glock mag. FWIW, this would be mainly carried when taking fishing/rock hounding trips out in bear/mountain lion country.
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AR based pcc question
- Thread starter papershredder
- Start date
The 429DE case is longer than the 10mm OAL
Good luck with that.
Have you looked at 10mm ballistic out of 16” barrel?
Even 9mm has some interesting ballistics out of that barrel length.
I’d be happy with either for mountain kitty’s.
Wishful thinking I know. I am/was hoping the 429 would still fit even with the extra 1/4" length. What about bear though. 10mm is barely adequate for them out of a pistol. From what I've heard it could take a few rounds of 10 to stop one at full pissed off charging speed. I haven't looked into 10mm ballistics out of longer barrels. I was hoping to have a shorter set up with an 8"-10" barrel. With all that said, I'll probably end up going 10mm on the build just for convenience.
If you’re in a place where you truly have to worry about bear then definitely don’t skimp on firearms for protection.
In BC and Alaska shotguns and 45/70’s work and work well.
For kitties n black bear 10mm is certainly adequate.
In BC and Alaska shotguns and 45/70’s work and work well.
For kitties n black bear 10mm is certainly adequate.
Why not just get a Sig Rattler in 300 blk? 110 tac tx is 1900 fps out of it's 5.5" barrel. Minimum expansion threshold is 1350. You're getting expansion past 200 yards.
Brown bears will need to be in the equation too. Due to the hiking and other equipment that I will be carrying, I'd rather not pack around a long gun. Rock hammer, shovel and pick get heavy enough, even in a back pack. Fly rod competes for space with a rifle on a sling.
I just started looking into pistol caliber AR's. Judging from the looks of the gas key (or lack thereof), looks like they are recoil operated. I was looking at barrels too and noticed they didn't have gas block journals or had a gas port drilled. I'll let someone else confirm if AR pistols are indeed recoil operated. But that would be what I would go with since I ain't dropping $3k for a Desert Eagle handgun. Revolver is the other option. But for right now, just gaging the feasability of a magnum handgun calibered AR pistol build.
We're talking about defense against large bear and cats. 300blk may be suitable for cats, but is it capable of handling worst case scenario of stopping a charging fully grown grizzly? I do go fishing in Montana, so there is a remote possibility of that scenario happening.
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Revolver option is on the table. I just have far more trigger time behind long guns and carbines than handguns. The limit is space/weight conservation of a pcc over rifle due to other equipment I'll be carrying.
You're going to have to be more concise with terminology to keep this thread on track. PCC's in both rifle and pistol format are typically blowback, with the exception of MPX's and CMMG's RDB system and now JP's MP5 based system. Just saying AR pistol opens this up to rifle caliber pistols and confuses the conversation. Getting a barrel made in something like 44 Mag might not be the hard part, but again, it'll probably not work in an unlocked breech system and you'll be on your own for getting a bolt with the right face dimensions and then creating a gas system and troubleshooting it into a functional firearm. Sounds a lot like reinventing the wheel.
PCC is about the closest term I can think of to describe a handgun chambered semi-auto rifle irregardless of how it actually cycles. I've been trying to emphasize "pistol caliber" in this thread so it doesn't get steared towards the rifle rounds like 458, 50 beowolf, etc. If someone is still confused whether or not we're talking about rifle caliber or handgun caliber chambered AR's, then that's on them. Their posts will get ignored. Let's get on the same page with some other terminology. I'd rather not use the term blowback and use either gas operated (DI or piston) or recoil operated (like auto handguns) and leave roller delayed like MP5/JP5 out of the discussion for right now. Good catch on the breach locking as IIRC the Desert eagle locks it's bolt (the Desert Eagle is also a gas operated pistol as well). As far as the bolt itself goes, it looks like both the .458 socom and the .429 Desert Eagle use the same parent case; 50 AE. So I may have to use a BCG made for the .458 and possibly configure a gas system to use for a magnum handgun type round. I'll look into that some more, if lucky, maybe pistol or carbine length gas system will work. Any extra fabrication, machining, modification of parts involved in a build like this is not that much of a concern, I have many options available there. Which brings us to the magazines. Since 10mm mags probably won't work with the .429, stanag mags will most likely have to be modified.
So you want a pistol caliber in a larger more bulky package. Why not just get a pistol of that caliber put it in a chest rig and go?
Or do a semi in 45cal like a kriss vector.
If your set on AR platform go 300BLK with like a 9 inch barrel and 10/15rd mags. Law tactical folder if you want it even smaller.
Or do a semi in 45cal like a kriss vector.
If your set on AR platform go 300BLK with like a 9 inch barrel and 10/15rd mags. Law tactical folder if you want it even smaller.
Shotgun with slugs is a really common "oh shit" camp gun if you go to Canada, Alaska etc.
People have taken big black bears with 300 blk but I'm sure it's not ideal for large brown bears. 110 tac tx, 120 sig, 115 tui all get like 20" of penetration in gel. But a 30 round mag in a reliable weapon system against a charging grizzly I'd put my money on the 300 blk. Hell people have killed Grizzlies with 9mm and 357.
Trying to get a custom AR style pcc to function reliably with a high powered round will be difficult. As has already been pointed almost all are blow back. I'd imagine you'd need a stupid heavy buffer and I'm not sure how the bolt would do. I wish you the best of luck if you try to go down that road.
I know you don't want it steered towards rifle rounds but that's what I would do personally. 375 raptor or 458 socom if you don't mind a slightly larger gun and 300 blk in a rattler if you want something very compact.
A CMMG 10mm with an extreme penetrator or 190-220gr hard cast with a 30 round mag wouldn't leave me feeling too under powered. People have taken bears with glock 20's.
One could argue that all automatic firearms (semi and full) save for revolvers and mini guns could be called blowback just because the pressure generated by the gases pushes the bolt back in some way. Blowback is just too generic of a term. Especially on a build like this one would be, since it hasn't been done by anyone to my knowledge yet. Every option is on the table in regards to operation be it roller, piston driven, DI etc..
Magazine capacity and faster reloading convenience over 44 mag revolvers and ammo reloading cost savings over the 458 socom. Also, I'm expecting there to be less recoil with the 429 DE over the 458. I agree with you on weight, it's more about having a compact set up than a full length rifle with a round similar to what's used in hunting revolvers.
I'm half serious about this build. While I'll eventually be looking for a bear caliber, consider this more of a thought excersize. Dirty Harry wants an AR! No reason a 44 magnum/429 DE AR shouldn't exist. .429 Desert Eagle packs just as much of a punch as the .44 magnum which is adequate for bear encounter scenario. Add a slightly longer barrel for added velocity for extra insurance that the animal will be stopped. I'll attempt a build if I think it can be done without too much hassle. Right now the issues I'm seeing is cartridge fitment in the magazine, buffer weight and gas port size will need to be determined, and possibly having to shorten the bolt carrier if using a 5.56 lower or modifying the bolt and magazine well in a dedicated AR pistol to work with the longer round. The latter would still require finding or making suitable magazines while 5.56 mags would need some modification.
It would be more along the lines of something I don't want to use unless absolutely needed. It would also be cheaper than 458 ammo-wise when reloading.
Keep in mind the scenario in the first post. Extra capacity for one and caliber choice has to punch as hard or harder than 10mm. to ensure the kill is as humane as possible.
That is literally the actual name of the action operation. It's a blowback operation.
Blowback like the cz scorpion and most AR 9's.
Roller delayed blowback like the mp5
Radially delayed blowback from cmmg
DI or piston is not a blowback operation
So it sounds like you're going to try to come up with a new prototype piston or di gun in 429 de. Custom gas system, bcg, buffer length, etc.
If I had to guess the 429 is too powerful for blowback(straight, radial, roller), you'd probably need a stupid heavy bcg and buffer.
Best of luck.
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Hard to take this thread seriously.
You really think its a good idea to bet your life on the dependability of some experimental franken AR when a friggen grizzly is charging. Oh and im sure he'll wait while you unpack it from your backpack.
Get a 44 Mag
Get a Glock 21 with the right ammo
Or just get a 300BLK pistol from a reputable manufacturer.
You really think its a good idea to bet your life on the dependability of some experimental franken AR when a friggen grizzly is charging. Oh and im sure he'll wait while you unpack it from your backpack.
Get a 44 Mag
Get a Glock 21 with the right ammo
Or just get a 300BLK pistol from a reputable manufacturer.
Ruger GP 100, .454 Casull in a chest holster. there, your problem is solved. Yes it's a revolver, yes it only carries 6, get a speedloader if you feel you need faster reloads.
Bonus: you can learn to use it properly by using .45LC, or get the cylinder machined for moon clips and use .45ACP
why a revolver? simple, reliable, and the GP100s are built like tanks. it will work when you need it most.
Bonus: you can learn to use it properly by using .45LC, or get the cylinder machined for moon clips and use .45ACP
why a revolver? simple, reliable, and the GP100s are built like tanks. it will work when you need it most.
Couldn't you do .460 Rowland in a 45acp PCC? Would just be cutting the barrel chamber different, I think 
. But I know it seems to be a common swap in some handguns when it comes to hunting.
My boss bought a 5.25" XD in 10mm for black bear encounters. I figure that would work nice. He has a PCC in 10mm also. A guys gotta have choices.
A short(er) revolver, chambered in 460S&W, would surely end that fight. And you could shoot 45LC and 454 Casull from it.
. But I know it seems to be a common swap in some handguns when it comes to hunting. My boss bought a 5.25" XD in 10mm for black bear encounters. I figure that would work nice. He has a PCC in 10mm also. A guys gotta have choices.
A short(er) revolver, chambered in 460S&W, would surely end that fight. And you could shoot 45LC and 454 Casull from it.
Quite the opposite, just trying to see if it can be done with off the shelf components and as little modification as possible. And your second point is exactly why Magnum Research designed the Desert Eagle the way they did. The difference between a Desert Eagle and an AR; The AR, even in pistol configuration has much more room for gas to expand and heavier BCG mass to move, just may be enough volume and mass that it would cycle just fine with no more issues than what any other AR encounters.
I never said anything about keeping it in the backpack. That's were all the other gear belongs. Besides, what's here to take seriously? The main purpose of this thread is nothing more than to stimulate a little thought, and see what hurdles that need cleared to open up the AR platform to magnum pistol calibers. I know it maybe difficult for some people to understand because they get hung up on semantics, or just unable to think outside of the box and would rather shut down any potentially innovative discussion that doesn't fit a molded narrative. I'm not looking for recommendations on what to carry for dangerous North American Game. I'm just looking to see what the options are for magnum caliber handgun rounds in the AR platform. That last sentence of my first post was just an afterthought when I typed it out. Wasn't meant to be the focus here.
Thank you guys for keeping this thread somewhat on track. Regarding longer cases, my initial thought is to install a spacer in the mag and shorten the follower so factory ammo can still be used. But, I do like like the thought of necking up to .45, definitely makes for some convenience. and something to consider. Now, the .460 Rowland never crossed my radar, I'll look into that one for sure.Couldn't you do .460 Rowland in a 45acp PCC? Would just be cutting the barrel chamber different, I think
My boss bought a 5.25" XD in 10mm for black bear encounters. I figure that would work nice. He has a PCC in 10mm also. A guys gotta have choices.
A short(er) revolver, chambered in 460S&W, would surely end that fight. And you could shoot 45LC and 454 Casull from it.
The problem with 44 mag is rimmed, as you probably know. the reason 429 DE hasn't done much in ARs is because it's too close to other established calibers, so there is no real incentive for a manufacturer to bring anything to market.
the closest thing you will find to what you're actually asking for is the 45 Raptor, which takes a large-frame AR action and uses a standard .308 bolt head, and a .308 parent case to approximate .460 S&W mag.
this requires only a difference in chamber, as you can still use a standard bolt, and uses .460SW dies with a .308 shellholder for loading. Brass is easily created by trimming down .308 cases.
the only non-standard item required is a new magazine follower and an insert because of the short length, but the capacity remains the same as the original mag (so 20 in a standard LR/SR pmag)
more information here: https://www.45raptor.com/
Bullshit dude, you are the one who mentioned bears and or lions in almost every post as the reason for needing this experimental frankenAR.
And fyi, 300BLK delivers well over 1000 ft.lbs. of energy at 100yds. How many pistol rounds do that?
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Really? You're going to cherry pick words and spin the context of the thread. How disingenuous of you. Once again this thread is about building magnum handgun calibered AR's. The bear scenario is just a fucking example. Here, let me cherry pick two of my sentences in a post you just quoted to help you gain some perspective :
While you're at it , look up the definition of the word hypothetical and go back and read my first post again. It's pretty sad that I have to sit here and spell it out for you and nobody else who has posted in this thread. But hey, I guess some people just get hyper-focused on what they want to see and believe and ignore everything else in a vain attempt to win an argument on the internet.
While you're at it , look up the definition of the word hypothetical and go back and read my first post again. It's pretty sad that I have to sit here and spell it out for you and nobody else who has posted in this thread. But hey, I guess some people just get hyper-focused on what they want to see and believe and ignore everything else in a vain attempt to win an argument on the internet.
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Jeeesus age.... this is like dealing with the wife when on those special days when she talks but not looking for practical advice and an actual solution to her problems she just wants me to listen and offer emotional support.
I like that you mentioned the 45raptor, because I have a large frame build going right now that I am thinking about building an extra upper for in 375 raptor. But, I agree that both raptor rounds, the 458 socom, 50 beowolf, and a few others that pretty much fill the same roll. But I like the thought of getting similar performance out of a shorter barrel, ammo that takes up less space and is cheaper to reload.
by the time you've gone through all of the custom parts required to make an AR that doesn't suck, you could have bought the deagle for a basically equivalent cost.
I at least understand the thought experiment, but economically you just aren't going to really reach the goal of making a thing that shoots the same bullet reliably for less.
At least the deagle also has the advantage of being compact and style points
Well I don't want a hug, but do you listen to your wife? Now, the problem here in this thread is not bears. The problem is what will it take to utilize the largest handgun calibers in an AR platform and keep the AR as small and light as possible. Solutions are being offered, anything you want to add?
That's the unfortunate side of this whole thought experiment should I decide to take it to the next step. Since I'm looking at building an AR in calibers that hasn't been done before, it will essentially be a prototype. Prototypes are never cheap or easy. Deagle looks cool, but I've already scratched that one off my list of future purchases.by the time you've gone through all of the custom parts required to make an AR that doesn't suck, you could have bought the deagle for a basically equivalent cost.
I at least understand the thought experiment, but economically you just aren't going to really reach the goal of making a thing that shoots the same bullet reliably for less.
At least the deagle also has the advantage of being compact and style points
you're essentially reinventing the wheel in the worst way possible. if someone came to me and asked me to give them energy equivalence to a magnum handgun cartridge in as small and light a package as possible, without it being a deagle, my response is basically to point them at a 300Blk MPX / BRN180S or a 10mm MP5.
why those? no buffer tube required, so you can create a package that is considerably more compact than a standard AR, and both calibers work well with short barrels (7-9").
I found the gun youre dreaming of. Its called a Draco and comes in mini and micro
why are we swimming upstream?
Just build a 458socom
Unless these cats are wearing armor, yeah a friggin 22Lr would probably work lol
Outside of brown bear country, I’ve never felt under armed with 9mm HSTs
Just build a 458socom
Unless these cats are wearing armor, yeah a friggin 22Lr would probably work lol
Outside of brown bear country, I’ve never felt under armed with 9mm HSTs
- Nov 3, 2010
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Iffin your gonna go nuts and build a coolio new toy. Build something that shoots 44 automag………or just buy a pistol already designed to shoot automag if you want semi auto
Both chamber pressure and BC of the projectile. Discussion of one will inevitably lead to the other. But I guess first It would be a good idea to select what cartridges to use. So a list of commercially available rimless calibers will need to be made for starters as well.
Only if absolutely necessary. But that would be about the point I scrap this idea.
I don't see it as reinventing the wheel. Just making the wheel wider. But those are suggestions I will listen to. I chose the AR platform for this thread just because of it's massive aftermarket options, but I'm not necessarily dead set on that platform. An MP5 with collaspable brace (or stock) & 6-8" barrel is very close to the idea here. I haven't been paying attention to HK for a while, didn't realize they made the MP5/SP5 in 10mm. The MPX has been mentioned above. I have no interest in 300 Black out though.
wow,
. Rivets and reciprocation mass don't work well together.Smaller, no. Lighter, barely. Which one has lighter recoil and would be quicker with follow up shots out of a 5-6# carbine with an 8" barrel. 458 socom or the 44 auto that Rooster mentions?
I'll buy a revolver over the survivor pistol. I'd rather go nuts. The 44 automag round is an option though.
Given the opportunity to fire a warning shot, which is more effective at scaring predators: the sound of a .22 or the sound of a .44?
wow,
Mikhail Kalashnikov, rebels and several large standing armies might disagree.
nearly 30 years is a long time to not be paying attention. the 10mm upper was originally made at the FBI's request, and you can either find an older FBI upper, or build one from a flat, or get one built from a flat.
Follow up shots? Are you planning to miss?Both chamber pressure and BC of the projectile. Discussion of one will inevitably lead to the other. But I guess first It would be a good idea to select what cartridges to use. So a list of commercially available rimless calibers will need to be made for starters as well.
Only if absolutely necessary. But that would be about the point I scrap this idea.
I don't see it as reinventing the wheel. Just making the wheel wider. But those are suggestions I will listen to. I chose the AR platform for this thread just because of it's massive aftermarket options, but I'm not necessarily dead set on that platform. An MP5 with collaspable brace (or stock) & 6-8" barrel is very close to the idea here. I haven't been paying attention to HK for a while, didn't realize they made the MP5/SP5 in 10mm. The MPX has been mentioned above. I have no interest in 300 Black out though.
wow,
Smaller, no. Lighter, barely. Which one has lighter recoil and would be quicker with follow up shots out of a 5-6# carbine with an 8" barrel. 458 socom or the 44 auto that Rooster mentions?
I'll buy a revolver over the survivor pistol. I'd rather go nuts. The 44 automag round is an option though.
Given the opportunity to fire a warning shot, which is more effective at scaring predators: the sound of a .22 or the sound of a .44?
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