AR gas piston retrofit

cj1026

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 12, 2008
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Repulik of Commieforniastan
Ok so I'm thinking about switching to a piston setup on my AR. I have 2 questions though.
Does anyone have or used the Bushmaster setup? Any problems?
And second
The AR I want to install this on has a MI low profile gas block and MI 10" FF railed handgurds. Will this setup work with my gas block and will it fit under my handguards?
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

I can only help with the second question. The piston retrofits that I've seen usually require a new handguard. I found that out when I realized my current rail system wouldn't accomodate the Adams Arms system I wanted. Ah well, a new rail system to match the new piston system. It's just money, right?
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so I'm thinking about switching to a piston setup on my AR. </div></div>


Why?

 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so I'm thinking about switching to a piston setup on my AR. </div></div>


Why?

</div></div>

+1

 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

Ok guys not try to be a dick but I thought with the piston system you would 1. stay cleaner and 2. stay cooler.
Both of which translate to better performace and longer life of the weapon. Am I wrong?
Please feel free to school me on this. The worst thats going to happen is I'm going to learn something and save $400+.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

I'm not trying to be a dick at all. Just wondering why you feel the need to throw money away on a replacement system for a system that isn't broken in the first place? Being a dick would to ask you why you didn't just simply Google "AR gas piston system" in the first place, where 50 pages of pro's and con's would have shown up...

Stay cleaner?
Yes. Not that cleaning an AR is an agonizing chore in the first place.

Run cooler?
Yes. The BCG will be substantially cooler and the handguards marginally so, but that's no real selling point. It will never get so hot you can't hold it anyway.

Better performance than a direct gas-impingement system?
No. All my AR's are gas and I have never had a problem with any of them. A few buds of mine have piston guns and have <span style="text-decoration: underline">yet</span> to have a single problem-free range setting.

Longer life?
I wouldn't bet on that. I'll bet the piston parts will wear out far faster than the gas parts on a regular AR. <span style="text-decoration: underline">IF</span> you can find a piston system that isn't "broken" in the first place, lol.

If it ain't broke...
The gas piston is cure to a problem that doesn't exist. Or only exists on the shittiest and most neglected of AR's.


Save the cash, cj. You need a gas piston conversion like I need a tanning booth.




Jack


 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

Bolt camming issues from the single point contact of the piston to the carrier and the lack of guide rails is causing some problems.

Piston pluses and minuses
+ easy clean (big deal)
+ should be a little better with suppresors
+ cooler bolt operation(maybe and argument for auto guns semis it's a non issue at best)
- more recoil impulse ( more moving mass)
- above bolt camming issues
- non standard parts

DI pluses and minuses
+ simple and accurate
+ standard inexpensive replacement parts
+ original design not a modification
+ semi by a US civilian will unlikely ever be exposed to an enviorement the platform cannot handle
- Piston gun pluses

The only AR's that I have seen issues with are out of spec lower tier guns which unfortunatly there are alot.Colts,LMT and the like rarely have problems outside of normal wear.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok guys not try to be a dick but I thought with the piston system you would 1. stay cleaner and 2. stay cooler.
Both of which translate to better performace and longer life of the weapon. Am I wrong?
Please feel free to school me on this. The worst thats going to happen is I'm going to learn something and save $400+. </div></div>

Ideally, you are not wrong. The 416 that I have runs cleaner and cooler and is one of the finest AR's I have every laid hands on. But I still have the standard spare parts just like any AR. That being said,

Everyone and their dog is trying to cash in on the piston craze created by the HK 416. Not to take anything away from the 416, which is a great piece of gear, but no civilian or LEO needs a 416.

Too many people think the piston on their AR will mean little or no maintenance and increased reliability. This is a very dangerous assumption. In fact, you are are removing 1 tube installed to factory specs, and adding other small, drop-in springs and moving parts. This just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. And like I said earlier, I have seen range reports where the piston units affect accuracy.

I have run DI AR's in patrol rifle courses in wet, dirty, hot, cold, dusty, windy, icy conditions. As long as you have a forward assist, dust cover, good mags, and a PROPERLY maintained gun, a DI AR is good enough for any condition here in the states.

Again, I'm assuming you will be shooting in a controlled manner with a semi-auto AR. If you are serious about using it as the tool it is meant to be, an old school DI AR is just the thing for 99% of us. My test for any AR I have used or built is to run a full chest rig/RR bag, which is 8 total mags, all w/ 30 rounds in controlled groups of 2-3 rounds with occasional 5-8 rounds of hammer drill. I have yet to see a Tier 1 AR accomplish this.



Your $400 would be better spent on something like an LMT or Colt bolt, spare parts, and good mags. And don't skimp on the cleaning supplies either.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

Guys thanks for all the good input. Didn't even think about the extra moving parts which translates to more things to break or go wrong.
Since I have a ton of spare parts already maybe I will spend the money on the 3x Eotech magnifier instead.
Thanks guys!
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys thanks for all the good input. Didn't even think about the extra moving parts which translates to more things to break or go wrong.
Since I have a ton of spare parts already maybe I will spend the money on the 3x Eotech magnifier instead.
Thanks guys! </div></div>

I have a POF upper, and I understand the extra moving parts comments, but torture tests reveal that the DI system fails sooner than the piston system. One reason I chose the POF system is that it uses the recoil spring in the buttstock to return the piston system to the resting state as opposed to having an extra spring in the gas system. There are very few things to break. The piston rod is only receiving compression forces, and steel notoriously strong under these forces.

I have never looked back from my POF upper. I love everything about it. The only knock I have against it is that it is slightly heavier, but it is easier to clean and is incredibly reliable. Even when I shoot a ton of wolf ammo through it there are no problems. After 5-10 clips in a DI system you will get an occasional misfeed because of all the junk from the ammo. POF test fires the gun with that crap just to prove how reliable the system is. That should tell you something.

My two cents.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bernard Wolff</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys thanks for all the good input. Didn't even think about the extra moving parts which translates to more things to break or go wrong.
Since I have a ton of spare parts already maybe I will spend the money on the 3x Eotech magnifier instead.
Thanks guys! </div></div>

I have a POF upper, and I understand the extra moving parts comments, but torture tests reveal that the DI system fails sooner than the piston system. One reason I chose the POF system is that it uses the recoil spring in the buttstock to return the piston system to the resting state as opposed to having an extra spring in the gas system. There are very few things to break. The piston rod is only receiving compression forces, and steel notoriously strong under these forces.

I have never looked back from my POF upper. I love everything about it. The only knock I have against it is that it is slightly heavier, but it is easier to clean and is incredibly reliable. Even when I shoot a ton of wolf ammo through it there are no problems. After 5-10 clips in a DI system you will get an occasional misfeed because of all the junk from the ammo. POF test fires the gun with that crap just to prove how reliable the system is. That should tell you something.

My two cents. </div></div>


Torture tests are something meant for prototypes in Yuma. Knowing your guns limitations is a good thing, but pushing it to the breaking point is just plain silly.

Not sure why anyone would be concerned with reliability when feeding Wolf to their rifle.....


Sorry Bernie, but I have no love for the Wolf ammo. Other than in a beater AK, it has no place in a firearm. Plus you said the "c" word.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

I would like to put together a pistol "play" gun.

However for work, I will stick with my DI M4.

Does it run dirty? You bet. When we got done with a day last week the guys asked me what I had on my face. The suppressor had been blowing carbon out the back and it left a nice line on my face. HOWEVER the weapon ran 100% with not a single hiccup. I squirt some CLP in there once in awhile between sessions and roll with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I have no experience with the 416, but with the prices they are commanding I don't think I need to have any experience with it.
 
Re: AR gas piston retrofit

I just had a piston rifle built. It's not a retrofit kit, but a piston conversion. The system is from Primary Weapon Systems and it different then a retrofit. I'm not sure what everyone else's piston kits look like, but this one is impressive.

The key on the carries has a fixed op rod that is supported the full length of it's travel to prevent carrier tilt and such.

I haven't had it for long, but I ran 250 rds through it at the range this weekend with no issues. I got it because I wanted a piston AR. I haven't had any major problems with my 4 other DI ARs, having 1 failure in the 4k combined rounds I've put through them.

It is definitely cleaner, when I cleaned it Sunday, it looked like I shot 5 rounds through a DI gun vs the 250 rds I actually fired.


Upper:
- Rainier Arms Professional series
- Rainier ultra match barrel, 16" 1/8 middy from a Shilen blank
- PWS piston system
- LMT bolt carrier group
- DD 12.0 lite rail with FSB cut
- PWS 556
- tac latch
-LaRue FUG on backorder

Lower:
- RRA receiver
- RRA lpk
- RRA 2-stage trigger
- Magpul MIAD
- Magpul CTR
- Magpul ASAP sling plate

Optics:
- TA31A ACOG in LaRue mount
- LaRue logo Troy buis

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