AR grip

[bornhunter04]

I shot my ar again yesterday and i still having trouble shooting consistent groups. I believe its the indian here. I had a stark industries grip but replaced it with a magpul moe grip. Out of 6 5shot groups i only had one that was worth a damn. So my question is, whats the best way to grip an ar for precision. Do you use a tight grip or loose, where do you place your thumb on the grip?

Below, is a target i shot last week with the old grip. The new magpul grip is much more comfortable to shoot from the prone position.

I didnt take a picture of my target from yeasterday it was so bad.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: AR grip

The best grip is the one that feels the best, grip the AR like a firm handshake, not too hard and don't limp fish it either.

Shooting the AR platform (any semi) takes some practice, you have to really focus on trigger control and follow thru, any bad or inconsistant habits will show up on target far more than with a bolt gun. Also consider that the AR has three recoil impulses vs one, all the more important to practice consistant follow through on your shots.

Practice.....

Kirk R

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

Your first mistake was removing the factory grip. It has a projection which assures your hand will index on the grip consistently. But, for what ever grip you perceive will get the job done, you will want a high firm handshake grip, not too hard, but one like you'd want to have shaking a child's hand. Such a grip should place the trigger finger perpendicular off the trigger. After you have shouldered the rifle, cognisant of the five factors of a steady position, and have properly aligned the sights without consideration for the target, then adjust NPA for the desired sight picture, and place finger on trigger allowing it to go as far across the trigger to where ever it is comfortable, not likely on the first pad. Once satisfied that the position is relaxed pull the trigger smoothly being sure to follow through, continuing to aim until recoil has ceased with trigger remaining depressed. You can measure trigger control progress by dry firing, calling your shots. Without recoil masking trigger control you should be able to discern movement related to disturbance of aim as a result of jerking the trigger. Remember that trigger control is one of two marksmanship principles. It is as important to good shooting as proper sight alignment. Also recognize a match trigger is not a substitute for smooth trigger control. Learn how to get good results with the rack grade AR trigger and you will be extraordinary with any trigger. I mention this since you have already begun it appears to replace parts on your AR for others which you perceive have a benefit; yet, you clearly do not know what benefit you will get from the "tactical" parts other than the "tacticool" look you've seen some monkeys get by placing such parts on their rifles.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: AR grip

I'm not blaming your bow, but I would ask for a lot more info than just your target.

What barrel length? Chrome moly, stainless, or chrome lined?
What kind of stock?
Iron sights or scope? If an optic, what magnification?
What trigger?
This WAS shot from prone?
If so, were you wearing a jacket, sling, glove or using a bipod?

Every group would hold the 10 ring on an MR31 target...

How does this rifle shoot the same loads from the bench?

There is a video floating around that shows the AR grip and discusses how everybody wants to grab it high like it's a handgun.

If everything related to holding the rifle is tight already and NPA is established, isn't the grip just where your hand goes to align your index finger straight to the trigger?

 

[DT1]

Re: AR grip

Excellent advice from SS on marksmanship fundamentals.

I agree with Mike, it could be a combination of Indian and arrow. It would help to clarify a few things:

Is your barrel free floated?

We're you shooting prone or off bench or other?

Does your rifle have a factory trigger (I refer to them as a "grunter" - usually 8-10lbs)? A good trigger that breaks cleanly and consistently can make a big difference in accuracy.

What type ammo are you using? 55gr blasting ammo shoots 2-3" groups out of my most accurate AR-15 on a good day. When I switch to good ammo such as 55gr V-Max or 69gr SMK loads, the groups shrink to 1/2". It looks like you're shooting a load with 75gr Hornady bullets (written on your target). What is your barrel twist? Might not be fast enough to stabilize that heavy bullet?

Many things could be causing the accuracy problem you're having.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

All,

It does not matter what ammunition, or sort of rifle has been brought to the firing line, we are not analyzing. And, since mastering the fundamentals is not dependant on "match grade" there is no need for match grade. No doubt that match grade can help a shooter get better results whether the shooter has mastered the fundamentals or not, at least at short range; but, match grade is not a prerequisite for marksmanship development; and thus, it is not necessary to know anything more than the OP has an interest in learning about about trigger control for an AR. We do not need to know about bullets, free float tubes, or anything else. Also, because the OP's target only tells us where the barrel was pointed for each bullet strike, we cannot recognize trigger control issues for sure. Yet, in regard to general marksmanship development, what any shooter wants with any equipment brought to the firing line is SMOOTH. If trigger control is smooth, aim is preserved and the shooter will need to look to other sources of error for any misplaced shots.

 

[bornhunter04]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent advice from SS on marksmanship fundamentals.

I agree with Mike, it could be a combination of Indian and arrow. It would help to clarify a few things:

Is your barrel free floated?

We're you shooting prone or off bench or other?

Does your rifle have a factory trigger (I refer to them as a "grunter" - usually 8-10lbs)? A good trigger that breaks cleanly and consistently can make a big difference in accuracy.

What type ammo are you using? 55gr blasting ammo shoots 2-3" groups out of my most accurate AR-15 on a good day. When I switch to good ammo such as 55gr V-Max or 69gr SMK loads, the groups shrink to 1/2". It looks like you're shooting a load with 75gr Hornady bullets (written on your target). What is your barrel twist? Might not be fast enough to stabilize that heavy bullet?

Many things could be causing the accuracy problem you're having.

</div></div>

sterling is right its me trying to learn how to drive the gun. the ammo is hand-loads the barrel is a stainless with a 1:7 twist. the trigger is a ssa-e. The barrel is free-floated. its def the indian not the bow. the gun will shoot that much is certain, I'm still learning how to shoot it. Ive been doing some dry fire trying to get used to doing a smooth trigger pull and working on grip, so hopefully I'll get those thing learned yet.

Here's the gun in question but it now wears a different grip: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3633073#Post3633073

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: AR grip

The rifle will teach you how it likes to be shot. Grip, weld, trigger pull, NRA, etc.; each will demonstrate preferred variations. Pay attention, keep notes, and put together the list of its preferences. Practice what actually works.

Greg

 

[2/1_Kiwi]

Re: AR grip

Absolutely fundementals, that 1.777 is either inconsistant stock placment in the shoulder so it slips up or down or getting your breathing under control.

Theres horizontal groups there too which point to trigger control.

Dry fire and consciously work through the marksmanship principles.

 

[303_enfield]

Re: AR grip

What range was it shot at? Have you tried a 62 or 69 grain pill? To many variables need to be answered. But the grip is a grip, find one you like. Now the stock being to long or to short causes all types of problems.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What range was it shot at? Have you tried a 62 or 69 grain pill? To many variables need to be answered. But the grip is a grip, find one you like. Now the stock being to long or to short causes all types of problems.</div></div>

In context to the question, what does knowledge of bullet choice or target distance gain? Furthermore, I don't think there are too many variables to be answered, after all, the question was about proper grip; and, although the comment is out of place in this thread, I can't see that there are "all types of problems" when the
AR stock appears to be too long or too short for the shooter.
I can see an issue when a child or relatively small adult shoulders a stock A2 but the one thing that is so fascinating about the M16 family of rifles is how easy they are to shoulder for most statures. I often remark that I am more comfortable behind my AR built for long range Service Rifle competition than I am behind my fully adjustable prone stocked long range match rifle. At any rate, the OP's question was about proper grip. Proper grip is one of five factors of a steady position. It supports smooth trigger control. We do not need to know about barrels, bullets, distance to target or anything else to appreciate its importance to good shooting. And, since all firing takes place at the firearm we are not likely, even with a mountain of information, to be able to say for certain what the OP is doing to produce the groups he has posted since we were not able to observe the OP"s relationship between gun and ground to discern obvious errors. He could have a multitude of problems. The only thing we know for sure from what the target and everything he can tell us is that the barrel was pointed in the direction of the bullet strikes. If the OP were properly coached the first question the coach would have for the OP would be," how did that shot look". A shooter on top of his practice would be able to call the shot; and, based on the call being off or on, the coach, as well as the shooter, would have a pretty good idea of where to troubleshoot for the source/s of errors. Analyzing bullets, barrels, butt stocks for this topic "AR Grip" is a distraction to learning.

 

[Graham]

Re: AR grip

OP, it has very little to do with your grip. It's hard to tell without watching you shoot, but what you are demonstrating is likely a cheek-weld issue.

 

[303_enfield]

Re: AR grip

Simple, target shows shooter is using a 75 grain pill. Some barrels have a problem with them. Also, if the target was shot with "irons" at 100m I see no problem except consistent sight picture. If it was shot with a 20X scope at 50M that is another problem. The grip (as in changing it out not position) has nothing to do with the spread I see on the target. As stated too many variables that are not listed.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What range was it shot at? Have you tried a 62 or 69 grain pill? To many variables need to be answered. But the grip is a grip, find one you like. Now the stock being to long or to short causes all types of problems.</div></div>

In context to the question, what does knowledge of bullet choice or target distance gain? Furthermore, I don't think there are too many variables to be answered, after all, the question was about proper grip; and, although the comment is out of place in this thread, I can't see that there are "all types of problems" when the
AR stock appears to be too long or too short for the shooter.
I can see an issue when a child or relatively small adult shoulders a stock A2 but the one thing that is so fascinating about the M16 family of rifles is how easy they are to shoulder for most statures. I often remark that I am more comfortable behind my AR built for long range Service Rifle competition than I am behind my fully adjustable prone stocked long range match rifle. At any rate, the OP's question was about proper grip. Proper grip is one of five factors of a steady position. It supports smooth trigger control. We do not need to know about barrels, bullets, distance to target or anything else to appreciate its importance to good shooting. And, since all firing takes place at the firearm we are not likely, even with a mountain of information, to be able to say for certain what the OP is doing to produce the groups he has posted since we were not able to observe the OP"s relationship between gun and ground to discern obvious errors. He could have a multitude of problems. The only thing we know for sure from what the target and everything he can tell us is that the barrel was pointed in the direction of the bullet strikes. If the OP were properly coached the first question the coach would have for the OP would be," how did that shot look". A shooter on top of his practice would be able to call the shot; and, based on the call being off or on, the coach, as well as the shooter, would have a pretty good idea of where to troubleshoot for the source/s of errors. Analyzing bullets, barrels, butt stocks for this topic "AR Grip" is a distraction to learning.

</div></div>

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

All,

Horizontal assessment of a group shows good elevation and poor trigger control. Possible causes of horizontal grouping are:

Failure to maintain proper sight alignment,
Change in sight picture,
High right shoulder ( shooting from right shoulder),
High vertical position,
Jerking the trigger,
Varying head pressure,
Movement of the right elbow, and
No stability in position causing wobble.

Again, information on bullet, distance or sight is moot to a discussion about AR grip specifically, or marksmanship principles or the elements and factors of a steady position in general.

303 Enfield,

Don't be ridiculous. There's no problem with the OP's bullet. It produces more recoil than some others; therefore, it makes consistent recoil resistance a concern, but not a concern for this topic. And, if you see no problem with the target other than sight picture if, as you said, the OP was shooting with irons, you do not understand much about the effects of position inconsistencies, some of which I listed above. Also, the grip has everything to do with trigger control. Your statement if taken to heart by a novice shooter would undermine the shooter's progress.

 

[Graham]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

Horizontal assessment of a group shows good elevation and poor trigger control. Possible causes of horizontal grouping are:
...
Varying head pressure,
</div></div>Have a look at the split groups.

...And it's not about the bullet.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

Horizontal assessment of a group shows good elevation and poor trigger control. Possible causes of horizontal grouping are:
...
Varying head pressure,
</div></div>Have a look at the split groups.

...And it's not about the bullet.</div></div>

My comments are germane to grip and trigger control, as well as the consequence for positional inconsistencies which complement trigger control. I am not attempting to analyze the shooter's target. I said the only thing anyone can know for sure about the OP's group is that the OP pointed his gun in the direction of the strikes. I have not attempted to analyze the target because I did not observe the shooter; and, without such observation, we can't discern what corrections are necessary. Addressing your comment, about multiple groups on a target (what you call a split group) indicates changing perspective of aim, which may have something to do with stock-weld inconsistency or too low a position. It can be failure to adjust NPA, or even parallax. It can also just indicate the shooter has not settled on what he perceives as balanced or centered sight alignment. Again, without watching and questioning the shooter about how the shot looked, who knows. It does not matter though because all the OP wanted to know about is how to properly grip an AR. We do not need to know anything more to answer his question.

All,

I could have just kept my mouth shut about the post where the poster wanted more information about bullets, and sights, and such. I mean, what the hell. This poster only wants to help the OP. But, this I think is a learning moment for others here in addition to the OP, those who have a mindset cast from nonsense rather than a strong understanding of basic marksmanship. I see this every day on the range, some one is having a problem and the next thing you know a guy is "helping" with an introduction to barrels, bipods, and bullets. Looking, as I do, at the barrel and bullet guy's groups down range has never surprised me, poor groups suggesting this is just another wannabee marksman without a clue regarding the shooter's role in the achievement of good results. If a highly qualified coach were asked for help the conversation would not start with barrels, twist, bullets or any equipment on the firing line unless it was obviously broken or defective. The discussion would start with the shooter dry firing and advising the coach how the shot looked. At any rate, it's a problem I think with forums in general, everybody has an opinion and the novice seeking advice does not know an informed opinion from baloney.

When I first got into High Power Rifle Competition I was a barrel and bullet guy. I thought, with a match grade this and that I'd get to the top as quick as I could pull cash from my wallet. I was wrong. I just became another guy on the firing line with good equipment who couldn't shoot. I was stubborn though, and recasting my mindset was not easy. For those here who know they don't know adjusting mindset should be easier, if not interrupted by bad information coming from those who don't know what they don't know, or from marketers preying upon the desires of the novice shooter.

 

[bornhunter04]

Re: AR grip

all, its not the gun or bullet tjat is broke. it is definitly me, thats why im here asking questions. I think, graham and sterling are coorect. when i shot that target i was doing other things between groups in an effort to mitigate heat build up in the gun. so my position was changing between groups. sterling was right in that my trigger control is lacking because im not getting into a proper position.

im going in the morning and will try and get some video of me shooting, so you guys can try and diagnose what im doing wrong and help me develop as a shooter. I will say this though, Im not as comfortable behind this gun as I am my bolt gun. So my issue is definitly my position behind the gun.

 

[bornhunter04]

Re: AR grip

Okay guys, got a couple groups on paper and video for you to diagnose. So if you don't mind look at my trigger control/grip and see what I need to work on.

I believe I was having trouble getting my parallax adjusted properly today.

Anyway, The first video is group 1 and then group 2. The target is marked accordingly:

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR grip

You appear not to have a good stockweld; and, it appears you have allowed the bipod and rear bag to dictate the height of your position. Also, from what I see, you could benefit from a lesson on building a steady position. That may be beyond the scope of this thread. But, for now, chuck the bipod and rear bag if you are using one, and use sandbags only for support under the forend. Shoulder the rifle bringing the comb of the stock to the head keeping the head vertical and erect. Then relax into the sandbags with the non-firing hand between forend and sandbags. Take it from there, adjusting NPA after you have discerned muscular relaxation. And then while maintaining sight alignment, pull trigger smoothly, remembering to follow through.

 

[bornhunter04]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You appear not to have a good stockweld; and, it appears you have allowed the bipod and rear bag to dictate the height of your position. Also, from what I see, you could benefit from a lesson on building a steady position. That may be beyond the scope of this thread. But, for now, chuck the bipod and rear bag if you are using one, and use sandbags only for support under the forend. Shoulder the rifle bringing the comb of the stock to the head keeping the head vertical and erect. Then relax into the sandbags with the non-firing hand between forend and sandbags. Take it from there, adjusting NPA after you have discerned muscular relaxation. And then while maintaining sight alignment, pull trigger smoothly, remembering to follow through. </div></div>

Okay, I think I see what your saying. I'm about 90% positive that I'm able to keep my head straight up and down with my bolt gun. Just something about getting behind the AR, that I'm not completely comfortable with. Am I too high on the gun, it feels like/looks like my chest is too high off the ground. Do you have any resources that would point me in the right direction of how to build a position properly? I plan on taking a class but it'll be awhile before I get to do it.

I also made a concerted effort to use a lower riding grip. I about certain that I was 'choking' up on the grip like a pistol trying to get my hand to fill in the gap at the top.

 

[HBAM1]

Re: AR grip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not blaming your bow, but I would ask for a lot more info than just your target.

What barrel length? Chrome moly, stainless, or chrome lined?
What kind of stock?
Iron sights or scope? If an optic, what magnification?
What trigger?
This WAS shot from prone?
If so, were you wearing a jacket, sling, glove or using a bipod?

Every group would hold the 10 ring on an MR31 target...

How does this rifle shoot the same loads from the bench?

There is a video floating around that shows the AR grip and discusses how everybody wants to grab it high like it's a handgun.

If everything related to holding the rifle is tight already and NPA is established, isn't the grip just where your hand goes to align your index finger straight to the trigger?

</div></div>

ditto

 

[sled_mack]

Re: AR grip

Have your camera guy walk around you getting a good view from one side, then behind, then the other side. From that picture, it doesn't look like you are straight behind the rifle. Your right shoulder looks too far forward.

Also, slow down on your trigger finger. If you are not breaking your position, don't take your finger off the trigger. Hold through recoil, reset, fire. You did better with the trigger on the first video than the second.