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Re: AR Pistol?
You can build if the stripped lower is logged out from the manufacturer as a pistol.
You can build if the stripped lower is logged out from the manufacturer as a pistol.
Re: AR Pistol?
Yes you can build a pistol from a stripped lower.
My understanding is that the lower must be logged as a pistol from the manufacurer, and marked accordingly.
Others have said that as long as you list it as a pistol on the 4473 when you buy it that it will be considered a pistol. I have NOT found this in writing and would stongly urge you to before proceeding this direction.
Yes you can build a pistol from a stripped lower.
My understanding is that the lower must be logged as a pistol from the manufacurer, and marked accordingly.
Others have said that as long as you list it as a pistol on the 4473 when you buy it that it will be considered a pistol. I have NOT found this in writing and would stongly urge you to before proceeding this direction.
Re: AR Pistol?
I'm not sure on your specific state laws but if the stripped lower is bought as a pistol on 4473, yes.
The new 4473 would clause it as a receiver and mandate all purchasers be 21 years of age or greater, regardless of intent (rifle or pistol). Ok to build into a pistol observing other state and fed restrictions.
This new form adds more questions on if the undefined original intend of RCVR, once made into a rifle config, must stay a rifle per definition. I think it does. Previous review only exempted the Thompson Contendor.
I'm not sure on your specific state laws but if the stripped lower is bought as a pistol on 4473, yes.
The new 4473 would clause it as a receiver and mandate all purchasers be 21 years of age or greater, regardless of intent (rifle or pistol). Ok to build into a pistol observing other state and fed restrictions.
This new form adds more questions on if the undefined original intend of RCVR, once made into a rifle config, must stay a rifle per definition. I think it does. Previous review only exempted the Thompson Contendor.
Re: AR Pistol?
Doesn't need to be marked from mfr as pistol, but it definately needs to be logged out from the mfr as such. It definately helps when the mfr marks them as such.
Phil, the answer is NO to building one off any old stripped lower bought new. Call around to some folks that sell lowers locally, they will know if their brands send any out logged out as pistol lowers, shouldn't be too hard to find one.
Doesn't need to be marked from mfr as pistol, but it definately needs to be logged out from the mfr as such. It definately helps when the mfr marks them as such.
Phil, the answer is NO to building one off any old stripped lower bought new. Call around to some folks that sell lowers locally, they will know if their brands send any out logged out as pistol lowers, shouldn't be too hard to find one.
Re: AR Pistol?
Sobrbiker,
It is a DPMS lower, and not designated specifically as a pistol.
What exactly do you mean "logged out" from the manufacturere? Pre designated?
Would it just be easier to buy an AR pistol sold from the company as such?
Don't want to get into drama with Doritos, Beer, and Muskets.
Thanks for the intel.
Sobrbiker,
It is a DPMS lower, and not designated specifically as a pistol.
What exactly do you mean "logged out" from the manufacturere? Pre designated?
Would it just be easier to buy an AR pistol sold from the company as such?
Don't want to get into drama with Doritos, Beer, and Muskets.
Thanks for the intel.
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What exactly do you mean "logged out" from the manufacturere? Pre designated? </div></div>
Yes. If you call DPMS and give them the serial number they should be able to tell you that the lower was designed to be a pistol when it left their factory.
If you have doubts, then contact the BATF and ask them. They will have the final say over what is leagal and what isn't. GET IT IN WRITING.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What exactly do you mean "logged out" from the manufacturere? Pre designated? </div></div>
Yes. If you call DPMS and give them the serial number they should be able to tell you that the lower was designed to be a pistol when it left their factory.
If you have doubts, then contact the BATF and ask them. They will have the final say over what is leagal and what isn't. GET IT IN WRITING.
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there REALLY any difference in a rifle lower, vs a pistol lower?
I have always been under the impression they were both semi-auto, and the pistol could'nt have a butt stock attached.
Am I missing something?
</div></div>
No, there is no difference in the lower itself. It has to do with the serial number and how it is saved at the factory.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there REALLY any difference in a rifle lower, vs a pistol lower?
I have always been under the impression they were both semi-auto, and the pistol could'nt have a butt stock attached.
Am I missing something?
</div></div>
No, there is no difference in the lower itself. It has to do with the serial number and how it is saved at the factory.
Re: AR Pistol?
guys I hate to say this but there is NO difference between a pistol lower and a rifle lower. A lower is a lower is a lower. On the new 4473's the only option is "reciever" in the past they could be listed on the 4473 as either a pistol or a rifle. Now its just listed as a reciever. It can be built into ANYTHING you want to make it, thats why an 18 year old can no longer purchase a stripped lower, because it COULD be built into a pistol. An 18yr old can buy a complete lower because its already built, but if you are smart and 18 you go buy a complete lower that has never had the stock put on the buffer tube .... can still build that into a pistol. A buffer tube is a needed part of the weapons system and it alone does not make a rifle.
As long as the lower left the factory as a stripped lower you can build ANYTHING out of it rifle or pistol it doesnt matter. If it left the factory as a complete rifle then its always got to be a rifle.
guys I hate to say this but there is NO difference between a pistol lower and a rifle lower. A lower is a lower is a lower. On the new 4473's the only option is "reciever" in the past they could be listed on the 4473 as either a pistol or a rifle. Now its just listed as a reciever. It can be built into ANYTHING you want to make it, thats why an 18 year old can no longer purchase a stripped lower, because it COULD be built into a pistol. An 18yr old can buy a complete lower because its already built, but if you are smart and 18 you go buy a complete lower that has never had the stock put on the buffer tube .... can still build that into a pistol. A buffer tube is a needed part of the weapons system and it alone does not make a rifle.
As long as the lower left the factory as a stripped lower you can build ANYTHING out of it rifle or pistol it doesnt matter. If it left the factory as a complete rifle then its always got to be a rifle.
Re: AR Pistol?
Marking a lower (or the markings on it) mean(s) nothing. "LE use only", "Starfleet use only", 9mm, 7.62, 20mm vulcan,... whatever. Unless your the MFG on a Form-1 and need to mark it.
Outsydlooknin75's post is correct. No legal precedence exsists for the BATFE chasing pistol builds off stripped AR receivers. There is some truth in the discussion...rifle to pistol is a no-no. However, the MFG isn't going to "log" or "report" a stripped RCVR as a rifle.
The BATFE was aware of this, and hense the modified 4473 to keep <21year olds from being able to obtain a pistol: since a stripped receiver could be legally purchased by a 18year old and built as either. The illegal nature was only in the <21year old age of the assembler.
Marking a lower (or the markings on it) mean(s) nothing. "LE use only", "Starfleet use only", 9mm, 7.62, 20mm vulcan,... whatever. Unless your the MFG on a Form-1 and need to mark it.
Outsydlooknin75's post is correct. No legal precedence exsists for the BATFE chasing pistol builds off stripped AR receivers. There is some truth in the discussion...rifle to pistol is a no-no. However, the MFG isn't going to "log" or "report" a stripped RCVR as a rifle.
The BATFE was aware of this, and hense the modified 4473 to keep <21year olds from being able to obtain a pistol: since a stripped receiver could be legally purchased by a 18year old and built as either. The illegal nature was only in the <21year old age of the assembler.
Re: AR Pistol?
Listen you guys are making a big deal out of nothing, when you buy a lower, tell the FFL dude to transfer it as a pistol, all six that I have bought were done this way, and like I said a pistol can always become a rifle with no paperwork, but not vice versa, the proof in that is the Glock/1911 to rifle conversions you see, really its this simple.
Listen you guys are making a big deal out of nothing, when you buy a lower, tell the FFL dude to transfer it as a pistol, all six that I have bought were done this way, and like I said a pistol can always become a rifle with no paperwork, but not vice versa, the proof in that is the Glock/1911 to rifle conversions you see, really its this simple.
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Listen you guys are making a big deal out of nothing, when you buy a lower, tell the FFL dude to transfer it as a pistol, all six that I have bought were done this way, and like I said a pistol can always become a rifle with no paperwork, but not vice versa, the proof in that is the Glock/1911 to rifle conversions you see, really its this simple. </div></div>
There is NO SUCH A WAY to do that on the latest revisions of the 4473. it is a reciever, and a reciever only now. On the OLD 4473's it was possible to have them mark it as a pistol lower, now they do not. Its a reciever, and a reciever only.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Listen you guys are making a big deal out of nothing, when you buy a lower, tell the FFL dude to transfer it as a pistol, all six that I have bought were done this way, and like I said a pistol can always become a rifle with no paperwork, but not vice versa, the proof in that is the Glock/1911 to rifle conversions you see, really its this simple. </div></div>
There is NO SUCH A WAY to do that on the latest revisions of the 4473. it is a reciever, and a reciever only now. On the OLD 4473's it was possible to have them mark it as a pistol lower, now they do not. Its a reciever, and a reciever only.
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Forgive me for being cautious but the ATF is not known for their reasonability in these matters. </div></div>
Prudence at its best.
The manufacturer can and does log out pistol lowers as such (At least Sun Devil does). Yes you can buy a stripped lower from your FFL and have him put "pistol" on the 4473 and it will show your intent. However, if the ATF is that far up your ass about it, you have other problems and unless it is sent out from the Mfr as a pistol you could be screwed.
Like I said, if it comes down to the diff between what the mfr sent it out as and what the 4473 says you are already in a position where you have multiple issues with the ATF and your little semi pistol may be the least of your worries.
To have your bases covered completely its not hard to find ones that leave the factory as a "pistol" receiver on paper. Then there isn't the question if it were built into a rifle prior to being built into a pistol (a step that can be done with a stripped rifle lower which negates its pistol-ability). Unlike the Glock and 1911 kits and AR receiver doesn't leave the factory as a pistol receiver under most circumstances.
The 4473 modification closes an age verification loophole, but not the "which came first the chicken or the egg" question. Most stripped lowers sitting on dealer shelves leave the mfr with rifle on their papers somewhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Forgive me for being cautious but the ATF is not known for their reasonability in these matters. </div></div>
Prudence at its best.
The manufacturer can and does log out pistol lowers as such (At least Sun Devil does). Yes you can buy a stripped lower from your FFL and have him put "pistol" on the 4473 and it will show your intent. However, if the ATF is that far up your ass about it, you have other problems and unless it is sent out from the Mfr as a pistol you could be screwed.
Like I said, if it comes down to the diff between what the mfr sent it out as and what the 4473 says you are already in a position where you have multiple issues with the ATF and your little semi pistol may be the least of your worries.
To have your bases covered completely its not hard to find ones that leave the factory as a "pistol" receiver on paper. Then there isn't the question if it were built into a rifle prior to being built into a pistol (a step that can be done with a stripped rifle lower which negates its pistol-ability). Unlike the Glock and 1911 kits and AR receiver doesn't leave the factory as a pistol receiver under most circumstances.
The 4473 modification closes an age verification loophole, but not the "which came first the chicken or the egg" question. Most stripped lowers sitting on dealer shelves leave the mfr with rifle on their papers somewhere.
Re: AR Pistol?
Thanks.
As I said before, I have heard it both ways but have not seen anything in writing about listing it on a 4473.
I am aware that the markings on the side don't have any signifigance other than when it left Rock River they considered it a pistol. Ultimately the paper trail will lead back to it being a pistol from the begining.
As was said, if the ATF is looking at you, this is probably the least of your worries.
Thanks.
As I said before, I have heard it both ways but have not seen anything in writing about listing it on a 4473.
I am aware that the markings on the side don't have any signifigance other than when it left Rock River they considered it a pistol. Ultimately the paper trail will lead back to it being a pistol from the begining.
As was said, if the ATF is looking at you, this is probably the least of your worries.
Re: AR Pistol?
As a note for those considering pistol builds, your buffer tube must not be capable of having a stock attached. You need a smooth one like RADcustom's or they sell ones like the regular CAR buffer that don't have the notches for stock adjustment milled into them........
As a note for those considering pistol builds, your buffer tube must not be capable of having a stock attached. You need a smooth one like RADcustom's or they sell ones like the regular CAR buffer that don't have the notches for stock adjustment milled into them........
Re: AR Pistol?
One of the issues has to do with taking an 'AR Pistol' and adding a stock to it, making it an illegal SBR (provided your barrel is under 16"). You wouldnt have to register as a SBR if it was a pistol, but by converting it to a rifle you need to ask 'mother may i' and pay the $200.
There is also the one-time conversion thing...if you make a rifle into a pistol it can not be made into a rifle again...something to that extent. I don't own any AR pistols so don't take my word on it, best to get it in writing from the feds, or ask your local class 3 dealer.
One of the issues has to do with taking an 'AR Pistol' and adding a stock to it, making it an illegal SBR (provided your barrel is under 16"). You wouldnt have to register as a SBR if it was a pistol, but by converting it to a rifle you need to ask 'mother may i' and pay the $200.
There is also the one-time conversion thing...if you make a rifle into a pistol it can not be made into a rifle again...something to that extent. I don't own any AR pistols so don't take my word on it, best to get it in writing from the feds, or ask your local class 3 dealer.
Re: AR Pistol?
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Rifle cannot be made into a pistol, but an AR that started out as arifle</span> <span style="text-decoration: line-through">pistol can go back and forth.......</span>
I defer to Russ's research
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Rifle cannot be made into a pistol, but an AR that started out as a
I defer to Russ's research
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle cannot be made into a pistol, but an AR that started out as a <span style="text-decoration: line-through">rifle</span> pistol can go back and forth....... </div></div>
This is an untrue statement. A rifle cannot be made into a pistol without proper channels. A pistol CAN be made into a rifle, but must remain a rifle from that point on out. This is not something you can LEGALLY keep switching. I have researched, with the BATFE this very thing extensively. To the point that it may be changed to accomodate owners of weapons like the TC Encore.
AS it stands now, THE LAW reads that once you change that pistol into a rifle, you may never return it to its original form or you have made an illega SBR.
This is all on your honor system, but must be mentioned.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle cannot be made into a pistol, but an AR that started out as a <span style="text-decoration: line-through">rifle</span> pistol can go back and forth....... </div></div>
This is an untrue statement. A rifle cannot be made into a pistol without proper channels. A pistol CAN be made into a rifle, but must remain a rifle from that point on out. This is not something you can LEGALLY keep switching. I have researched, with the BATFE this very thing extensively. To the point that it may be changed to accomodate owners of weapons like the TC Encore.
AS it stands now, THE LAW reads that once you change that pistol into a rifle, you may never return it to its original form or you have made an illega SBR.
This is all on your honor system, but must be mentioned.
Re: AR Pistol?
As a fine point not mentioned. The receiver must be logged into the "Dealer" as a pistol and sold as such to you. According to my local dealer when they get an order of receivers they are not designated, as they log them into the store they designate them at that point.
It might be wise to pre-inform your local dealer and have them logged in as pistols if you have any desire to make one. Most shops worth their salt will call you when they get a shipment and ask you if you still want one as a pistol.
As noted you can make a rifle with a pistol but can't go back to the pistol there after. So ensure you know which receiver is which while your swapping parts around.
Cheers,
Doc
As a fine point not mentioned. The receiver must be logged into the "Dealer" as a pistol and sold as such to you. According to my local dealer when they get an order of receivers they are not designated, as they log them into the store they designate them at that point.
It might be wise to pre-inform your local dealer and have them logged in as pistols if you have any desire to make one. Most shops worth their salt will call you when they get a shipment and ask you if you still want one as a pistol.
As noted you can make a rifle with a pistol but can't go back to the pistol there after. So ensure you know which receiver is which while your swapping parts around.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem is I bought a bunch of DPMS stripped lowers in 06, and they are already registered from the gun dealer.
Too late to specify anything, so now it is find the hoop to jump through I guess.. </div></div>
Find someone in the market for an AR build. Have them buy the pistol lower and then trade FTF. Might be a shade of Grey with the definition of a straw purchase but worthy of investigation at the least.
Cheers,
Doc
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shibumi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem is I bought a bunch of DPMS stripped lowers in 06, and they are already registered from the gun dealer.
Too late to specify anything, so now it is find the hoop to jump through I guess.. </div></div>
Find someone in the market for an AR build. Have them buy the pistol lower and then trade FTF. Might be a shade of Grey with the definition of a straw purchase but worthy of investigation at the least.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: AR Pistol?
OK, I have a seekins lower sitting at my FFL as we speak.... when I go pick it up I will take a pic with my phone showing all teh nay sayers that it isn't treated as a pistol or a rifle. It's just a reciever.
Thats how they are all treated these days. It's actually black and yellow, not black and white, but on the federal paperwork none the less.
OK, I have a seekins lower sitting at my FFL as we speak.... when I go pick it up I will take a pic with my phone showing all teh nay sayers that it isn't treated as a pistol or a rifle. It's just a reciever.
Thats how they are all treated these days. It's actually black and yellow, not black and white, but on the federal paperwork none the less.
Re: AR Pistol?
A frame or receiver is NOT a pistol, nor a rifle. It is accounted for as a frame or receiver.
It cannot be sold to anyone not able to buy a pistol, though.
See ATF open letter:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
A frame or receiver is NOT a pistol, nor a rifle. It is accounted for as a frame or receiver.
It cannot be sold to anyone not able to buy a pistol, though.
See ATF open letter:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I have a seekins lower sitting at my FFL as we speak.... when I go pick it up I will take a pic with my phone showing all teh nay sayers that it isn't treated as a pistol or a rifle. It's just a reciever.
Thats how they are all treated these days. It's actually black and yellow, not black and white, but on the federal paperwork none the less. </div></div>
Russ, you cant tell people anything that dont want to listen and actually learn what the law reads.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I have a seekins lower sitting at my FFL as we speak.... when I go pick it up I will take a pic with my phone showing all teh nay sayers that it isn't treated as a pistol or a rifle. It's just a reciever.
Thats how they are all treated these days. It's actually black and yellow, not black and white, but on the federal paperwork none the less. </div></div>
Russ, you cant tell people anything that dont want to listen and actually learn what the law reads.
Re: AR Pistol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you have doubts, then contact the BATF and ask them. They will have the final say over what is leagal and what isn't. GET IT IN WRITING. </div></div>
And they will deliver in PERSON too! Just think of the Customer Service you will receive!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you have doubts, then contact the BATF and ask them. They will have the final say over what is leagal and what isn't. GET IT IN WRITING. </div></div>
And they will deliver in PERSON too! Just think of the Customer Service you will receive!
