Rifle Scopes AR10 Scope Help

[Trudnik]

Hey everyone.

I have spent at least 30 - 40 hours over the past month deciding which scope to get for my 18" AR10 and I had spent half of that time here on Snipershide.

This rifle is suppose to be an "all-purpose" rifle. So basically, it should be able to do everything, (but nothing properly). From few metres out to 1K metres. Rifle will have an offset red dot, so that covers the closest of distances. However I would still like to be able to use the scope at the shortest distances possible. Thus, ideal lower end would be 2 - 3x. For these reasons I would also prefer a very forgiving eyebox and a nice field of view. Vortex Razor Gen III 1-10x24 would be almost perfect, but I would still like a little bit more on the higher end. (I have one on my AR15 and it's simply stunning piece of hardware).

Initially I have decided on Minox ZP5 3-15x50. However, those have been out of production for something around 2 years now. Still, I have managed to get one, but its illumination wasn't working, so I had to send it back. There was an option to get it fixed, but even though I have no prior dealing with Minox support, I have a suspicion that it might not be the best. None of the emails they have on their website or facebook are working and they still have a discontinued model on their site.

Then I have managed to get my hands on TT315M. Little did I know, that you can't import "optical devices" into EU without official import license. My fault, should have checked, but I simply didn't expect that. So no TT for me.

Scopes that I am currently considering and that I can get in EU are:

Minox ZP5 3-15x50 - I should still be able to get a working one somewhere within EU, though I am not really liking the support and not sure how well it would perform on AR10 gasser.
Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 - The reviews I have read here weren't too convincing, plus it's 3.5 on lower end.
ZCO 4-20x50 FFP - If only it weren't 4x on the lower end. 3-15x or 2-14/16 and I would be jumping with joy.
Steiner M7Xi 2.9-20x50 - Not much info on this one. I believe that @koshkin has a review coming, so waiting for that. The one review that was posted here wasn't completely positive. I believe it mentioned that the scope is impossible to get behind at 15x or more.
VORTEX Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50 - I would immediately get one, if only it weren't heavier than me after a Christmas dinner.

I have ruled out S&B, considering that I do not have a good experience with their scopes.

The most important factors are mainly field of view and the eyebox. Budget is not an issue.

Thank you very much for your time.

 

[Denys]

How about a March 1.5-15X42?

 

[JDB55]

March 3-24x42 illuminated would seem to be perfect for the distances your talking about. Lightweight, low end of 3, I think you would be happy with it on an Ar10.

 

[Dogtown]

Plenty of good options on your list. I’ve been a big fan of the Ultra Short line, but got a really good deal on a Steiner 2.9x20x MSR2 and it turns out it’s pretty comparable. I run n gun with the canted Aimpoint, but the low end of the scope is easy at close ranges. The available elevation is a bonus (I’ve shot it unnecessarily far).

 

[Glassaholic]

Hey everyone.

I have spent at least 30 - 40 hours over the past month deciding which scope to get for my 18" AR10 and I had spent half of that time here on Snipershide.

This rifle is suppose to be an "all-purpose" rifle. So basically, it should be able to do everything, (but nothing properly). From few metres out to 1K metres. Rifle will have an offset red dot, so that covers the closest of distances. However I would still like to be able to use the scope at the shortest distances possible. Thus, ideal lower end would be 2 - 3x. For these reasons I would also prefer a very forgiving eyebox and a nice field of view. Vortex Razor Gen III 1-10x24 would be almost perfect, but I would still like a little bit more on the higher end. (I have one on my AR15 and it's simply stunning piece of hardware).

Initially I have decided on Minox ZP5 3-15x50. However, those have been out of production for something around 2 years now. Still, I have managed to get one, but its illumination wasn't working, so I had to send it back. There was an option to get it fixed, but even though I have no prior dealing with Minox support, I have a suspicion that it might not be the best. None of the emails they have on their website or facebook are working and they still have a discontinued model on their site.

While out of production, they are still amazing scopes with excellent FOV.

Then I have managed to get my hands on TT315M. Little did I know, that you can't import "optical devices" into EU without official import license. My fault, should have checked, but I simply didn't expect that. So no TT for me.

That's too bad, there is nothing that comes close to these little wonders of optical and mechanical art.

Scopes that I am currently considering and that I can get in EU are:

Minox ZP5 3-15x50 - I should still be able to get a working one somewhere within EU, though I am not really liking the support and not sure how well it would perform on AR10 gasser.

If you live in EU then it shouldn't be too bad, Minox is still supporting the ZP5 scopes.

Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 - The reviews I have read here weren't too convincing, plus it's 3.5 on lower end.

Had one, loved it, but has narrow FOV (ZCO 4-20 has more FOV at 4x than Kahles does at 3.5x)

ZCO 4-20x50 FFP - If only it weren't 4x on the lower end. 3-15x or 2-14/16 and I would be jumping with joy.

See above, better FOV than Kahles, this is still the crowned king of ultra shorts.

Steiner M7Xi 2.9-20x50 - Not much info on this one. I believe that @koshkin has a review coming, so waiting for that. The one review that was posted here wasn't completely positive. I believe it mentioned that the scope is impossible to get behind at 15x or more.

Early reports aren't too promising

VORTEX Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50 - I would immediately get one, if only it weren't heavier than me after a Christmas dinner.

Now that's funny!

I have ruled out S&B, considering that I do not have a good experience with their scopes.

Strange, most people have very good experience with Schmidt, but I get it, if you've been jaded it's hard to go back.

The most important factors are mainly field of view and the eyebox. Budget is not an issue.

Minox and ZCO are going to be the ones to focus on then (I'd say Schmidt too but we've already ruled that out). Personally, I'd pick a ZCO 4-20 over the Minox 3-15 but if you feel you must have the FOV of the Minox then by all means go that route. Are you able to get Burris scopes where you're at, or Nightforce? The Burris XTR IIIi 3.3-18 might be something to look into and the NF 2.5-20x50 may be another viable option (I'm currently doing a refresher review of the NF NX8 2.5-20, the Schmidt 3-27 and the March 3-24 and I must admit I am really liking the NF this go around, not sure if mine was an early adopter anomaly that NF has since fixed or what, but this new NX8 is much, much better).

 

[UpSideDown]

The best thing about offset red dots is that you can immediately rule out LPVO's. LPVO's have downsides that are best remedied by not using an LPVO, but by using a red dot and a real scope. There's no way I would run an LPVO if I was already planning on a red dot in addition, because LPVO's have a tiny objective lense (poor low light performance), no parallax, and they have tighter eye boxes than could be had.

Once you have a red dot you've got close range covered. Don't stress out about duplicating your close in performance with the scope. 3-4x bottom end is great, and a 4x with good FOV is about the same as a 3x with average FOV anyways. 12-18x top end is nice.

You're talking about super high dollar scopes that are out of my experience so I won't discuss specific scopes, but I think generally my points above were worth making.

 

[Trudnik]

Thank you very much for such detailed answers.

How about a March 1.5-15X42?

March 3-24x42 illuminated would seem to be perfect for the distances your talking about. Lightweight, low end of 3, I think you would be happy with it on an Ar10.

I basically ruled out March straight at the beginning. It's like visiting a restaurant where you can pick from 100 courses. Wide selection, great, but you can almost certainly be sure that none of those courses will be exactly spectacular. I have similar feelings with March. Their selection is just too massive. But considering the recommendations, I will look into them further. How are eyeboxes at those 3-24x42?

While out of production, they are still amazing scopes with excellent FOV.

That's too bad, there is nothing that comes close to these little wonders of optical and mechanical art.

If you live in EU then it shouldn't be too bad, Minox is still supporting the ZP5 scopes.

Had one, loved it, but has narrow FOV (ZCO 4-20 has more FOV at 4x than Kahles does at 3.5x)

See above, better FOV than Kahles, this is still the crowned king of ultra shorts.

Early reports aren't too promising

Now that's funny!

Strange, most people have very good experience with Schmidt, but I get it, if you've been jaded it's hard to go back.

Minox and ZCO are going to be the ones to focus on then (I'd say Schmidt too but we've already ruled that out). Personally, I'd pick a ZCO 4-20 over the Minox 3-15 but if you feel you must have the FOV of the Minox then by all means go that route. Are you able to get Burris scopes where you're at, or Nightforce? The Burris XTR IIIi 3.3-18 might be something to look into and the NF 2.5-20x50 may be another viable option (I'm currently doing a refresher review of the NF NX8 2.5-20, the Schmidt 3-27 and the March 3-24 and I must admit I am really liking the NF this go around, not sure if mine was an early adopter anomaly that NF has since fixed or what, but this new NX8 is much, much better).

Awesome info! Thank you very much.

I was hoping for good news with the Steiner M7Xi. That's the one I've been eyeing the most. But oh well... was there anything in particular that Koshkin mentioned?

Alas, Burris would be very painful to get here, if at all possible. NF aren't an issue, they are fairly common in EU, but I have read quite woeful reviews on pretty much the entire NX8 line and the ATACR line starts at 4x on lower end. So if I were to go the 4x way, I would rather stick with ZCO.

I had one bad exprience with S&B, nothing too tragic, but to me they seem to be just way too overpriced and slightly outdated for what they offer. You just have to draw a line somewhere.

Thank you again. This way I have narrowed it down to:

Minox ZP5 3-15x50
ZCO 4-20x50 FFP
VORTEX Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50
Possibly March scopes that I need to look into.
(Removed Kahles and Steiner)

In the end it might fall down into how forgiving the eyeboxes are on these.

The best thing about offset red dots is that you can immediately rule out LPVO's. LPVO's have downsides that are best remedied by not using an LPVO, but by using a red dot and a real scope. There's no way I would run an LPVO if I was already planning on a red dot in addition, because LPVO's have a tiny objective lense (poor low light performance), no parallax, and they have tighter eye boxes than could be had.

Once you have a red dot you've got close range covered. Don't stress out about duplicating your close in performance with the scope. 3-4x bottom end is great, and a 4x with good FOV is about the same as a 3x with average FOV anyways. 12-18x top end is nice.

You're talking about super high dollar scopes that are out of my experience so I won't discuss specific scopes, but I think generally my points above were worth making.

I completely agree here. I have LPVOs on my AR15s and they are beyond perfect there. Especially with my astigmatism. Razor gen III 1-10x is a fluke in Matrix, honestly.

View attachment 7827251
Plenty of good options on your list. I’ve been a big fan of the Ultra Short line, but got a really good deal on a Steiner 2.9x20x MSR2 and it turns out it’s pretty comparable. I run n gun with the canted Aimpoint, but the low end of the scope is easy at close ranges. The available elevation is a bonus (I’ve shot it unnecessarily far).

Very nice build. I might keep that Steiner in contention after all.

 

[Thorbeast]

If you are set on not using the minox (I would have minox fix it and try that first, there is a reason you picked it, give it a try), I think it comes down to budget...

Under $2k I'd pick a 4-16 ATACR or 3.6-18 mark 5. The mark 5 is quite a bit lighter than anything else on your list, if that's important. I have the 4-16 ATACR and it's a great scope. It's not impressive on the spec sheet, but it works really, really well in use. One of the few scopes I've owned that I have no interest in selling/trading (except for maybe a different reticle).

Above 2k I'd look at the 4-20 ATACR.

If $$$ is no concern, I think the easy answer is the ZCO 4-20. I'd really like a ZCO, but I can't justify spending the money.

However, I'd let minox fix that ZP5 and run that for a while. If you need more mag just jump up to a 4-20, ATACR or ZCO.

I do agree about not needing to worry about the difference between 3-4x if you are using a red dot.

 

[Trudnik]

Alright then. Decided on ZCO420 with MPCT3 reticle.

Thank you everyone! I really mean it.

 

[Glassaholic]

OP, you keep coming back to eyebox, this seems to be your #1 criteria.

Thank you again. This way I have narrowed it down to:

Minox ZP5 3-15x50
ZCO 4-20x50 FFP
VORTEX Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50
Possibly March scopes that I need to look into.
(Removed Kahles and Steiner)

In the end it might fall down into how forgiving the eyeboxes are on these.

The Minox ZP5 and ZCO are going to have the best eyebox experience, the Razor is supposed to be really good as well. The only March I've had that has a "forgiving" eyebox is the 4.5-28x52 (again, don't let the 4.5x fool you, it has more FOV than ZCO at 4x) however, I'm still going to give the nod to ZCO and Minox ZP5 for best eyebox. The March 3-24x52 has an okay eyebox, but this is an 8x short body design and these tend to be a bit more finicky than others, same situation with the NX8 so if eyebox is your criteria then stay away from NX8. ATACR 4-16 is a stellar choice in this category, but I'd give the edge to the ZCO again.

Here's a review I did a couple years ago on the Ultra Shorts (including the ZP5 3-15), you might find it beneficial, not much has happened in the few years since to change my mind.

Rifle Scopes - ZCO ZC420 v Kahles K318i v Schmidt Ultra Shorts v Minox ZP5

Three scopes walk into a bar, the first is a ZCO, the second a Kahles and the third a Schmidt… and so the joke goes, but in reality, it was 6 scopes, and Minox joined the party as well and the punchline of the joke is… well read on and we’ll get there. Right before SHOT 2018 I was thrilled to...

www.snipershide.com

PS - fair enough on Schmidt; however, even though they are "older" designs, both the Schmidt Ultra Shorts are still very viable in this market, depends on how much you can get them for. If they are within $500 of ZCO I would say get the ZCO, if they are more than $500 below ZCO then it'd be worth giving a try if you like the reticle.

 

[Glassaholic]

Alright then. Decided on ZCO420 with MPCT3 reticle.

Thank you everyone! I really mean it.

Excellent choice, you will not be disappointed!

 

[Trudnik]

OP, you keep coming back to eyebox, this seems to be your #1 criteria.

The Minox ZP5 and ZCO are going to have the best eyebox experience, the Razor is supposed to be really good as well. The only March I've had that has a "forgiving" eyebox is the 4.5-28x52 (again, don't let the 4.5x fool you, it has more FOV than ZCO at 4x) however, I'm still going to give the nod to ZCO and Minox ZP5 for best eyebox. The March 3-24x52 has an okay eyebox, but this is an 8x short body design and these tend to be a bit more finicky than others, same situation with the NX8 so if eyebox is your criteria then stay away from NX8. ATACR 4-16 is a stellar choice in this category, but I'd give the edge to the ZCO again.

Here's a review I did a couple years ago on the Ultra Shorts (including the ZP5 3-15), you might find it beneficial, not much has happened in the few years since to change my mind.

Rifle Scopes - ZCO ZC420 v Kahles K318i v Schmidt Ultra Shorts v Minox ZP5

Three scopes walk into a bar, the first is a ZCO, the second a Kahles and the third a Schmidt… and so the joke goes, but in reality, it was 6 scopes, and Minox joined the party as well and the punchline of the joke is… well read on and we’ll get there. Right before SHOT 2018 I was thrilled to...

www.snipershide.com

PS - fair enough on Schmidt; however, even though they are "older" designs, both the Schmidt Ultra Shorts are still very viable in this market, depends on how much you can get them for. If they are within $500 of ZCO I would say get the ZCO, if they are more than $500 below ZCO then it'd be worth giving a try if you like the reticle.

I read that review of yours probably a dozen times in the past month. I know it by heart at this point. ))

Funny thing is, that brand new ZCOs here are on par, or sometimes even cheaper than S&B (some fluke).

And thank you for the blessing!