AR15 16" maximum effective range

BasraBoy

BasraBoy

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Mar 29, 2008
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#1
Looking at a new build....here's the problem:

Most of my shooting is at 100yd, 300yds, 500yds, 600yds. Occasionally I shoot out to 900 and 1000yds.

I've got bolt guns that are good to go at any of the above BUT but I "need" an AR style 5.56/.233 rifle (you know how it goes...).

My smith is saying that with a 16" barrel I'm pretty much limited to less than 400yds. If I want decent (MOA) accuracy out to 600yds I need a 20" barrel.

I'm looking at 77gr Lapua Scenars or local made HPS 77Gr SMK's thru 1 in 8 twist for paper punching.

I'm cool with the idea of a 500yds (or less) rifle....and a carbine length rifle would make a nice change from the 24"/26" barrel bolt guns.

What barrel lengths are you guys using on your AR's and what results are you getting at 300/400/500/600 yds?

Thanks in advance.
 
#2
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

In the Marine Corp we were utilizing M16A2 w/ 20"bbl and we qualified w/ them out to 500 yards all day long. These were service grade M16's. I am sure you could squeze more performance out of them if they were built w/ better barrels....just my experience.
 
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#3
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

I had a DPMS sweet 16 with a burris 2-7x fullfield with ballistic plex on it. After upgrading the trigger in that to a RRA NM 2-stage I was able to consistantly make hits at 500 yards where I aimed. I'm a decent shot, but that rifle setup was outstanding.
 
#4
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

A 16" AR can get you to 1K with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel with the 75+ grain bullets (maybe 68 grain BTHP). I shoot 2- 16" AR's for competition, and they work fine to 600. One shoot we went to 800, but my slow load with a 60 grain V-max was key holing at 800. A 20" will get you a little more velocity, but 1K is still doable with a 16" barrel. For 600 and in, I'd go 16" all the way.
 
#5
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

chadtrg42...music to my ears man! I really want a carbine length rifle and was dreading having to go to a longer barrel.

What kind of groups are you pulling on those 16"?
 
#6
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

You're welcome. My main one right now is the Snipershide Tactics LLC group buy rifle from a year or so ago, and the best load did 7 shot 1 1/2" groups at 200 yards. It's a decent 3/4 MOA to MOA rifle. I just got a new custom 16" AR last week from Scott, and sighted it in. I'll be doing load work up on it this weekend and it already looks very promising with my basic plinking loads. It shot right at an inch on 4x at 100 yards just shooting rapid fire. So, I'll ring out all the accuracy this weekend.
 
#8
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

I routinely shoot a 16" barreled AR-15 with a 1:7 twist Krieger and 77gr SMKs out to 600 yards with excellent results in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics.

Past 600 yards, my match 77gr loads drop like crazy but are still accurate. They go subsonic around 750-775yds.
 
#9
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 16" AR can get you to 1K with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel with the 75+ grain bullets (maybe 68 grain BTHP). (snip) </div></div>

Only if it's like 100 degrees outside with 100% humidity and you are at 7,000 feet of elevation. It's worse with the 69gr SMK.
 
#10
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at a new build....here's the problem:

Most of my shooting is at 100yd, 300yds, 500yds, 600yds. Occasionally I shoot out to 900 and 1000yds.

My smith is saying that with a 16" barrel I'm pretty much limited to less than 400yds. If I want decent (MOA) accuracy out to 600yds I need a 20" barrel.

What barrel lengths are you guys using on your AR's and what results are you getting at 300/400/500/600 yds?
</div></div>

Firstly, what comes to practical target/sniper shooting -16" works better than most think IMO. Terminal efficiency is what it is in longer ranges, but hitting is possible.


My current AR is 16" hbar, shoots solid 1-1,25MOA at 100meter groups with EOtech and Fed XM193 55gr FMJ factory load.
Last time I was really stretching bushy´s legs, range was 530meters (580 yds) and target torso-size aluminium plate. Actually there was plenty of targets, but it was closest and only one visible w/iron sights thanks to weather.

Sitting in tower, using railing as an support, I was able to knock reactive target down with 60-70% hit rate. 15-20 hits all together. It was raining properly, and wind was pretty nasty, from 4-5 o´clock. Wind hold was at edge of front sight.
Did shooting with Matech BUIS, had to wipe eotech lens in every three shots or so to see target or sight thru it. It was that rainy/windy.

Also friend tried it, he was able to hit with exactly every second shot- about ten times in row! It was hes first time with AR15.

Im not saying 556 nato shooted from carbine is proper long/mid range caliber -but it is possible to hit constantly for sure.

If I remember correctly, with my MV:s 55gr bullet goes subsonic around 540-550meters- meaning it starts to be absolute max distance for such a light bullet.
With same ammo, I wasnt able to shoot much further even with scope and 20" barrel when I had one.
 
#11
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

JL thanks for the detailed answer.

Maybe I'm asking too much of the 16" but occasional hits are not what I am looking for - that is simply frustrating in any gun to me.

I'm looking for something that (weather aside) can reliably hit targets within 1 MOA at shorter range (to 300yds) and sub 2 MOA out to 500 or 600yds.

Rifle will have a scope (most probably a USO x6, although still considering a Triji ACOG x6 or a Nightforce Compact). I don't tend to use iron sights much beyond 300yds as my eyes aren't as good as they used to be.
 
#12
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Well, now that you have tempered your expectations with a 16 inch AR-15 in .223, I think you should be able to reach your goals.

Long range shooting with the .223 (and just about any other caliber for that matter,) is a question of bullets and velocity, with the added caveat that your rifle system can shoot accurately enough to hit the target.

With all due respect to our Finnish friend, the 55gr FMJ is what is known as a "piss-poor" long range performer. Its BC is such that it sheds it velocity quickly and goes subsonic early on.

I am not familiar with the 77gr Scenar or the other locally made bullet you were talking about, but suffice it to say that if they are loaded to magazine length, their BC will not be high enough to take you anywhere near 1K supersonically, irrespective of barrel length. However as 600 yard loads they should do very well, in calm conditions. When the wind starts blowing, these bullets will dance around after 3-400 yards; there is nothing you can do about it, it's the nature of the bullet.

In order to go further accurately, you need higher BC bullets and higher velocity (with either sane or insane loads.) By using a 16 inch barrel, you are going in the wrong direction, velocity-wise. You will be able to do quite well to 4 and maybe 500 yards. You will also get hits at 600 and longer, but the term "group" will more likely be supplanted by the term "pattern" or "chance meetings."

As JL stated earlier, even with a longer barrel, he could not get the 55gr to do much of anything past a certain range, and that's where the BC of a bullet comes into play. You can push a low-BC bullet as fast as you want, it will only shed its forward velocity faster and still not get you any further.

The 77gr bullets will go further even if they start more slowly, because they will not shed their velocity as quickly. This also means that the velocity difference between a 16 inch barrel and a longer one actually translates into longer range with these bullets.

If you really wanted to go to 1k, you would need a longer barrel and still-higher BC bullets. My .223 1K AR-15 rifle sports a 26 inch barrel and spits out 80gr JLKs at 2850FPS. It is by no means a carbine and it is not what you are looking for but that's what it takes to get to 1K with a .223 safely and sanely and still be able to use the brass and not require a complete support structure to keep your rifle running. This rifle has put several thousands bullets downrange and I haven't so much as changed a spring since I assembled it some years back.

That being said, with a 16 inch barrel you should be able to achieve what your stated goals are above.
 
#13
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Maybe I suck, but with my service rifle (20" HBAR Krieger, all the other bells and whistles) I had a pretty hard time getting to expert. This was mostly because of the wind at 600, single loading the long-loaded 80 SMK's. Master is going to be at least another barrel away.

I just can't imagine scoring well w/ a 16" and mag-length ammo at 600, let alone 1000. But, that's me. There's a lot of people here who aparently can shoot circles around my redneck ass...

If you give it a whirl, I'm curious how it goes.

-Slice
 
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#14
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Thanks Sig685.

It was never my intention to make this rifle a 1K capable tool - I have other rifles for that - sorry if my original post wasn't clear on this. Max range I'd be shooting with this would be 6ooyds - more often 100, 300 and 500.

I'd only really consider the 77gr SMK or Scenar for the exact reasons you state. That is why the 1 in 8 twist - which as far as I understand effectively rules out lighter bullets.

 
#15
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Sig685.

It was never my intention to make this rifle a 1K capable tool - I have other rifles for that - sorry if my original post wasn't clear on this. Max range I'd be shooting with this would be 6ooyds - more often 100, 300 and 500.

I'd only really consider the 77gr SMK or Scenar for the exact reasons you state. That is why the 1 in 8 twist - which as far as I understand effectively rules out lighter bullets.

</div></div>

Actually, it does not. I have shot 52gr SMKs out of my 1:8 twisted ARs and they are like laser beams. You should have no problem shooting any bullet you want with a 1:8 with the exception of the 90gr JLK or SMK; these will need a 1:6.5 twist but I do know of a few people who have been able to shoot them in 1:7 twist but at close to insane loads. In my book, the 1:8 or 1:7.75 is the very best twist for .223; you can shoot everything that a 1:7 can shoot, without the faster spin.
 
#17
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Thanks again guys for all your input - really appreciated.

I'm a lot more comfortable that the 16" will do the job than I was a couple of days ago.

Sig685, thanks for the heads-up on the twist rate. I'd thought that 1 in 8 would make the lighter bullets unstable.
 
#18
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeSlice</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I suck, but with my service rifle (20" HBAR Krieger, all the other bells and whistles) I had a pretty hard time getting to expert. This was mostly because of the wind at 600, single loading the long-loaded 80 SMK's. Master is going to be at least another barrel away.

I just can't imagine scoring well w/ a 16" and mag-length ammo at 600, let alone 1000. But, that's me. There's a lot of people here who aparently can shoot circles around my redneck ass...

If you give it a whirl, I'm curious how it goes.

-Slice </div></div>
I absolutely love you post, it is very refreshing and hits the nail on the head. I have reached F-class Master status in MR with my AR-15, with one full match in HM territory. I definitely do not use mag-length bullets at even 300 yards, they are all 80gr bullets assembled with great care with the finest components.

Your game is one of 2-MOA 10-ring with iron sights at all distances, mine is F-T/R, a game of 1MOA 10-ring with scopes at all ranges. When people talk of 1MOA groups they usually mean 3 shot groups or 5 shot groups, they are not talking about the 20 shot groups to which we are accustomed. This is why I dismiss out of hand any claims of accuracy with words like "moa", "sub-moa" or "1/4 MOA" especially when the words "if I do my part" or "all day long" are also in the same sentence.

I truly believe that BasraBoy will be able to string 3 or 5 shots together at 4-500 yards maybe even 6, once in a while when the wind isn't blowing, with his scoped AR. Stringing 20 shots together will be a different story, but that is not his game.

So, I don't think you suck at all, competition is difficult and getting the classifications is an achievement. I am now working on Expert in F-T/R Long Range myself, and I have one match in already (but it's not with an AR-15 in .223 anymore).

(I'm surprised Greg or Sterling have not jumped in yet.)
 
#19
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As JL stated earlier, even with a longer barrel, he could not get the 55gr to do much of anything past a certain range, and that's where the BC of a bullet comes into play. You can push a low-BC bullet as fast as you want, it will only shed its forward velocity faster and still not get you any further.
</div></div>

exactly.
98% of my triggertime with AR is under 100yds -therefore I use same ammo in all shooting. As said, 55grainer is basically the worst choice for longer range shooting.
what I wroted about hitting plate with carbine didnt help with original question considering shooting tight groups far, apologies, - but I just couldnt help myself. This "unreliable, underpowered and obsolete" rifle just keeps surprising me...
smile.gif


If I can shoot like that with standard carbine/irons in a bad weather, what could purpose-built carbine, experiencered AR -shooter and proper bullets do?
That was my point between lines.
 
#20
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 16" AR can get you to 1K with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel with the 75+ grain bullets (maybe 68 grain BTHP). (snip) </div></div>

Only if it's like 100 degrees outside with 100% humidity and you are at 7,000 feet of elevation. It's worse with the 69gr SMK. </div></div>
Correct! A 16" wouldn't be my choice for 1K, but pushing it hard with the right bullet can get you there. 600-700 would be about realistic max, and 800 yards for an occasion plinking session.
 
#21
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

I have been using a 16 inch, old Colt M4, with a 2.5-10x32 nxs. I am consistently hitting at 610 yards with 55 fmj reloads. I have a ton of 69 and 77 grain Match king Fiocchi ammo, that I will be trying out. I don't know what I could effectivly kill at that range, but I promiss they won't be happy.
 
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#22
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

I've shot a 16" 1-9 chrome lined a2 carbine out to 600 yards on several occasions with surprising results.
I am pushing a 69 SMK to just under 2800 ft/sec.
1.44 moa per click on my carbine's elevation.

Range - clicks

200 = 0
300 = 2
400 = 5
500 = 8
600 = 12
700 = 16

This load is reliably supersonic out past 700 yards.
The rifle shoots about 1.5 moa and I swear that is seems to tighten up at distance.
Wind will have it's way with you for sure but it is no different than what wind does to ANY bullet pushed to it's accuracy limit.

I'll shoot .22 rimfire out to 300 yards and without the wind you'd think it was a cake walk.
Add in some wind and it becomes an exercise in experience and calculated gambling.

Get a 16" 1-8 twist stainless Wilson barrel.
(Excellent barrel for the money BTW)
Load up some 68-77 grain bullets, and push them as hard as you dare.
You're expectations will be met or exceeded.
 
#23
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Thanks rovieairto.

The HPS (UK ammo) is 77gr with an MV of 2,600fps so should be supersonic well past 600yds.

Originally intended a 1 in 8 twist but interested in sig658's recommendation of a 1 in 7.75". I'm trying to get a Border custom stainless barrel for this rifle...waiting on a guide price! Bull diameter behind gas block coming down to .750" at the gasblock to muzzle.
 
#24
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Depending on the BC of the UK 77gr bullet, as well as the atmospheric conditions, it should go subsonic at between 775 and 800yds with an initial MV of 2,600fps.
 
#27
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Too bad you can't fit the Hornady 75gr. A-Max in there.

For that combo I'd keep it to about 400 yards, the wind will be the deciding factor in all of it. I use some 68gr Match as well with similar BC and at 500 yards the wind can change slightly and throw it off by 2 feet...and I'm pushing like 2,900 with them.
 
#28
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

exactly.
98% of my triggertime with AR is under 100yds -therefore I use same ammo in all shooting. As said, 55grainer is basically the worst choice for longer range shooting.
what I wroted about hitting plate with carbine didnt help with original question considering shooting tight groups far, apologies, - but I just couldnt help myself. This "unreliable, underpowered and obsolete" rifle just keeps surprising me...
smile.gif


If I can shoot like that with standard carbine/irons in a bad weather, what could purpose-built carbine, experiencered AR -shooter and proper bullets do?
That was my point between lines. </div></div>

As you have probably gathered by now, I am not one who thinks the AR-15 is "unreliable, underpowered and obsolete." In fact I have stretched further than virutally anybody else anywhere. So I also know its real limitations.

Yes, one can shoot the AR-15 with 55gr FMJs at long distances, if there is little or no wind, just as one can shoot a .22LR at 300 and 400 yards, again with no wind. It's just a matter of knowing the come-ups. Been there, done that. It's a lot of fun.

However, for reliably hitting a target, on demand time and again at long distances, you AR had better have a loner barrel than 16 or 20 inches and you had better be shooting high-BC bullets and at very high velocities.

To the OP, unless you plan on using 80gr bullets, the long VLDs, there is really no need to look for a 1:7.75, just go for a 1:8. The 1:7.75 seems to be a Krieger standard for the match ARs. You will be well served by a 1:8 and 77gr SMKs. Now, you need to learn to load well and read the wind. This is your next challenge.
 
#29
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

I've shot M4s to 500 using a Leupold 1.5-5X with M855, Hornady 75s, and Sierra 77s. I was able to keep 10 in the head on an E-type, but it was slow, deliberate shooting (and I was aiming center of mass).

The Marines shot 77s at 1,000 from their M16s at an Interservice Championships and Camp Perry. They were at a distinct disadvantage against everyone else shooting 80s.
 
#30
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip)
The Marines shot 77s at 1,000 from their M16s at an Interservice Championships and Camp Perry. They were at a distinct disadvantage against everyone else shooting 80s. </div></div>

That's quite the understatement.
 
#31
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

While not a 16" barrel, I was shooting my Noveske 18" intermediate gas system barrel on Labor Day out to 700 yards using 77 SMKs over 24 grains of Varget. Muzzle velocity of about 2740. No problem at all hitting my ActionTarget Hostage steel target (about 13 x 18 inch body). Dope was about 5.5 mils. Had to hold a little over a mil of wind. Tons of fun.
 
#32
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to my data, with a BC of 0.362 and a MV of 2,600, you'll be subsonic at 790yds (give or take).
wink.gif
</div></div>

That's more than I need - I'm not planing on using this one beyond 600.
 
#33
Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range

Have you considered an 18" barrel like an SPR-type set-up? Maybe 18" is longer than you were hoping for, but it seems to be a good compromise for the SF guys shooting a 77gr SMK.
 
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