Arca Bipod Mount (Screw vs. Lever)

[Kyle Kelly]

Before we dive into this, I am in no way knocking AREA 419 or the products they make. But I'm posting this here because they're still a company trying to sell products and be(IMO) slightly biased towards what they already make. (which I think is understandable because I would be too)
So I made a comment on their video about ARCALOCK asking about make a bipod mount similar to the RRS ARMS-LR but with the ARCALOCK technology and this was the response.
" It’s impossible to get the consistent clamping force with a lever that you can with our two-stage screw. Not interested in going backwards."

So can anyone back up this claim with facts or some kind of proof. again this is on no way calling anyone out just seeing if anyone had any insight on how the ball screw is better than the lever.

 

[Supersubes]

This probably isn't gonna go well. They dont want to do it, clearly. Probably best to move on, or ask another company to make your part.

 

[_Windrider_]

I’m gonna throw gas on this bitch. Hey @flyer1a you care to expand on this

 

[Ledzep]

6 dozen of one, 72 of the other...

The clamping force in a bolt comes from stretching it (usually elastically, but in some single-use applications just over the edge of plastically). How you get there; spinning threads or throwing a cam lever, doesn't really matter... ON THE SAME RAIL. The cam lever (properly executed) will produce basically the same stretch (clamping force) every time until linkages start wearing or you get localized plastic deformations.

However, when you start swapping from rail to rail, with real world manufacturing variations, you'll start finding trouble. You will either get inconsistent clamping force and/or will have to adjust the clamp for each rail individually every time you swap. This is evident enough in the various throw-lever picatinny optic mounts out there. Swap from one rifle to another and it's like Goldilocks and the 3 bears.

A hand screw bolt is as consistent as the hand that screws it on every rail.

 

[spife7980]

I replaced my lever stuff with nonlever stuff because levers suck dick.

 

[Kyle Kelly]

This probably isn't gonna go well. They dont want to do it, clearly. Probably best to move on, or ask another company to make your part.

I don’t have a problem with what they already make and don’t mind the screw mounts. It was just interesting to me.

 

[ma smith]

I thought the whole point of 419 arca lock rail is it works without using a lever lock clamp?

 

[Ledzep]

I meant to mention, too, that the reason the throw levers are inconsistent is because the clamping stretch in the bolt is likely much less than the manufacturing variation in rails. You'd have to start getting into silly production tolerances ($$$) to get consistency across the board.

If you only have 1 rail it's no big deal, but if you want to swap between two or more then you're playing the odds. Kinda like swapping dies that are in Hornady Lock N Load bushings from one press to another. It's quick and easy but won't size your cases the same Keep it all on one press and everything is kosher.

 

[THEIS]

This probably isn't gonna go well. They dont want to do it, clearly. Probably best to move on, or ask another company to make your part.

Hi,

Sorta like....lol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[KnowNothing256]

Odd that nobody has mentioned the design that combines both, a lever that is threaded onto the clamping shaft, and can be tensioned if needed by screwing the lever handle down tighter.

That’s far and away my preferred option.

 

[Ronin_64]

I replaced my lever stuff with nonlever stuff because levers suck dick.

Don’t hold back, I can handle it. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[rydah]

It’s not better, it’s just different.

Sound fundamentals and a practical trigger pull weight is however better than a 4oz trigger and slapping the shit out of it.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

If it works, don't "fix it".

 

[308pirate]

So I made a comment on their video about ARCALOCK asking about make a bipod mount similar to the RRS ARMS-LR but with the ARCALOCK technology and this was the response.
" It’s impossible to get the consistent clamping force with a lever that you can with our two-stage screw. Not interested in going backwards."

So can anyone back up this claim with facts or some kind of proof again this is on no way calling anyone out just seeing if anyone had any insight on how the ball screw is better than the lever. Because I don't think RRS would make a product that doesn't scream consistency.

Douche move

If you don't believe Area 419, prove them wrong by engineering and machining whatever it is you want the way you want it.

Well, can you?

 

[Superjet]

The thumbscrew allows you to absorb rail dimension variances without changing the design, a cam over lever lock does not.

 

[Kyle Kelly]

Douche move

If you don't believe Area 419, prove them wrong by engineering and machining whatever it is you want the way you want it.

Well, can you?

What? it was a question, I thought I made a pretty good disclaimer in the beginning, I also have multiple products from them and love running them. I was looking for more information outside of the manufacture, asking someone for proof or facts is what any consumer would do. I can’t do it to answer your question. Wasn’t looking to prove anyone wrong, just wanted to know the why.

 

[Stoweit]

I think Superjet answered it pretty well. I use it on a Manners TCS and works great. Thumb screw doesn’t need to be perfect, just move it and tighten thumb screw down. Boom done. If you want something different probably going to have to look elsewhere. Love RRS as well, but nothing is perfect with tolerances involved. YMMV, good luck.

 

[Kyle Kelly]

I think Superjet answered it pretty well. I use it on a Manners TCS and works great. Thumb screw doesn’t need to be perfect, just move it and tighten thumb screw down. Boom done. If you want something different probably going to have to look elsewhere. Love RRS as well, but nothing is perfect with tolerances involved. YMMV, good luck.

Absolutely agree. It was definitely the answer I was looking for and for the record to everyone I don’t mind the thumb screw either

 

[Supersubes]

What? it was a question, I thought I made a pretty good disclaimer in the beginning, I also have multiple products from them and love running them. I was looking for more information outside of the manufacture, asking someone for proof or facts is what any consumer would do. I can’t do it to answer your question. Wasn’t looking to prove anyone wrong, just wanted to know the why.

I saw your disclaimer. Also saw the title and the rest of your post which read as a slight against 419.

 

[Kyle Kelly]

I saw your disclaimer. Also saw the title and the rest of your post which read as a slight against 419.

Not the intention at all so if anyone was confused by that I apologize.

 

[flyer1a]

*cracks knuckles*

Ok, so our first design was a ratchet-style lever from Kipp. I still have it in my box-o-stuff in the garage. Worked, but was cumbersome with the ratcheting and we knew that customers would use that longer arm to break stuff. "If the torque spec is tight enough, I bet going way over is better" happens all the time among customers. All. The. Time.

Then there are levers. The best lever design on the market is the ADM pic clamps that many of us have had on our Atlas bipods. Their push-through nut for tensioning is really solid. That said, it still suffers the fate of all lever clamps - the levers cam over their most tight point, meaning that they are either never fully tight, of you have created deformation of the threads to get to a full-clamp state, which is a poor idea in the long run. Additional issue with lever clamps - we get other manufacturer rails in here from time to time. More than a few come in that are outside RRS spec, and even RRS spec has enough space in it for a lever clamp to not work well without regular adjustment when moving one rail to another.

Our solution features a dual-pitch thread and some simple elegance inside the screw. When there is no tension on the screw, the clamp opens/closes with a coarse thread, helping with speed. When under tension, it moves to a thread that is twice as fine, giving you much more leverage, increasing the torque you get on the knob and allowing you to get a grab on the rail at full strength.

Like I said in that comment, we aren't interested in going backwards.

 

[flyer1a]

Odd that nobody has mentioned the design that combines both, a lever that is threaded onto the clamping shaft, and can be tensioned if needed by screwing the lever handle down tighter.

That’s far and away my preferred option.

ADM is way ahead of you, with really solid IP protection: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7823316B2/en

 

[Kyle Kelly]

*cracks knuckles*

Ok, so our first design was a ratchet-style lever from Kipp. I still have it in my box-o-stuff in the garage. Worked, but was cumbersome with the ratcheting and we knew that customers would use that longer arm to break stuff. "If the torque spec is tight enough, I bet going way over is better" happens all the time among customers. All. The. Time.

Then there are levers. The best lever design on the market is the ADM pic clamps that many of us have had on our Atlas bipods. Their push-through nut for tensioning is really solid. That said, it still suffers the fate of all lever clamps - the levers cam over their most tight point, meaning that they are either never fully tight, of you have created deformation of the threads to get to a full-clamp state, which is a poor idea in the long run. Additional issue with lever clamps - we get other manufacturer rails in here from time to time. More than a few come in that are outside RRS spec, and even RRS spec has enough space in it for a lever clamp to not work well without regular adjustment when moving one rail to another.

Our solution features a dual-pitch thread and some simple elegance inside the screw. When there is no tension on the screw, the clamp opens/closes with a coarse thread, helping with speed. When under tension, it moves to a thread that is twice as fine, giving you much more leverage, increasing the torque you get on the knob and allowing you to get a grab on the rail at full strength.

Like I said in that comment, we aren't interested in going backwards.

Completely understand not wanting to go backwards and thank you for giving the why behind the reason. Looking forward to getting my Arcalock kit today and running the piss out of it.

 

[sheepdog697]

Levers are a pain in my experience. Especially with big boy rifles, that bring big boy recoil.