Rifle Scopes are optics companies missing it??

[Guest]

its seems like there is a big divide in what the public wants and what is being offered in scopes these days. for one thing every tactical scope or scope with a turret needs to have a freakin zero stop, but a company like leupold doesn't even offer it. there are only a few companies that have it. next is reticle design, the mil dot is old and out of date, there are so many better options MOA based reticles are my preferred choice.

the other thing is adjustment in one turn of the turret, I think most guys would like to see at least 20 MOA in one turn, but optics companies continue with 10 or 15 MOA.

I think there is a disconnect on what technology is out there and what the average guy wants. for instance I always use a lazer RF, I don't need or care to range with my reticle. my ideal optic would have a

-capped covered windage turret/adjustment, set it and forget it bascially.
-a bubble level in the scope like USO
-a clean reticle with MOA hold offs on the horizontal crosshair, dial for distance hold for wind. I don't want or need all the other markings, the wind hold offs could double as a ranging setup in a pinch.
-25 MOA in one turn
-zero stop
- price under 1k
-utter reliable tracking mechanically.

some of the features are out there by different scope companies but none are built into one scope.
maybe I should start my own optics company.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Your list could easily be built by US Optics, except for your price tag.

You get what you pay for.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">maybe I should start my own optics company. </div></div>

When you can make all that scope for under 1K post a link for purchase. You are living a pipe dream.

Josh

 

[deadly0311]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Features cost money....you find anyone that makes your scope for under 1K you are doing good.

Let me ask you some questions....
-Why is a zero stop necassary, if you have a 2 revolution scope, why is the stop needed?
-The latest and greatest whizbang reticle wont help you shoot any better.....i've never felt under equipped with a mildot reticle. Its the indian not the arrow.
-When you start throwing alot of elevation on a single turn, it has downfalls....such as clicks being really close, possibly missing your mark due to them being close.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Also, you note that the optics world is not taking notice of what the masses want. I heartily disagree. Companies like S&B, USO, Nightforce, Hensoldt, Premier, Vortex, etc have taken the most wanted items into account. Unless you do each scope custom like USO you will not get everything you want. There are more than a couple things on your list with which the vast majority of the precision rifle community would disagree.

Josh

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

it would be nice, but its an unrealistic price for the options you want. Expect to pay $2k-$3k for the scope you have described.

 

[Kalman]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

features are freeeeee! It's a neat world you live in.

Although I really wish the Viper PST was offered without an illuminated reticle for a little less cash. Not sure how much cash it would save though.

 

[ORD]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

The options you want to have on "your perfect scope" are more than do-able (like someone said...USO will take GOOD care of you). That said...you are living in a delusional state if you think you are going to get anywhere close to what you want for the money you are willing to spend!!

Features cost money. Quality costs money. RELIABILITY costs money. Wishing for all those features on the cheap is great...but like the man said: "Wish in one hand and $#!T in the other and see which one fills up first!"

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

I don't see how the stuff I am asking for really adds that much cost, perhaps the internal bubble level is an added expense, owe one other requirement the scope would need a weigh less than 24 oz.

USO S&B premiere are all pushing 3 grand, the other thing is they are not in enough stores for me to even ever see one, I am not going to spend 3 grand on a scope any scope for that matter.

the vortex PST comes close to the features I want. but I am still waiting for more feedback particularly in the mechanical tracking department. honestly I would pay a couple hundred more for a PST scope that is utterly reliable in the tracking and mechanical department. if it tracked like a nightforce I would buy one and not think twice, because it would still meet my under 1k requirment.

 

[Magstang1]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

You have also neglected the ever important rule:

They can charge that much. Because they have it, and you want it.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Some people don't understand and can never be pleased.

 

[JRose]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see how the stuff I am asking for really adds that much cost </div></div>

Of course you don't. It's clear you have no real understanding of what it takes to build a quality optic.

I agree that $2500-3000 scopes are hard to pay for, but you need to lower the bar on your expectations a bit. There are lots of offerings out there in your price range, you just can't have a Ferrari for a Chevy price. Go figure...

Also, why do you need a zero stop so badly if it has a one turn knob?

 

[azimutha]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Hey, it's a free country. I, however, will take a scope spec'd almost the opposite. I will never buy a scope without turrets I can't turn any time I want. There's nothing wrong with a well-designed mil-dot reticle, such as Premier's Gen II and I certainly prefer to range in a decimal-based system if I can't use my LRF. As for turns, both my NF and my Premier are more than adequate, the former providing over 17 MOA per turn and the latter over 51 (and that's on a DT turret, which has better spacing than a single-turn IMO).

 

[Chiller]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

may I introduce you to a concept

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RV-p51fvYLc"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RV-p51fvYLc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

is not going to happen.

 

[groovinpickle]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see how the stuff I am asking for really adds that much cost</div></div>
That's because you're neglecting the R&D costs, tooling costs, QC costs, etc. involved in adding those features.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not going to spend 3 grand on a scope any scope for that matter.</div></div>

On a side note, I always knew LL was a dog person...

Josh

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Im not sure who makes it but may be worth looking into.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Your description of the perfect scope is like saying: "I want a car that can go 200 mph, carry 7 people, tow a boat, and get 40 miles per gallon for under $20k." Ain't going to happen.

Both Vortex and Weaver came out with optics with 95% of the features of what tactical shooters want in a scope for under $1000. The fact that they did it and didn't skimp on the glass is pretty remarkable to me.

Also I find that I disagree with half the requirements you want. I believe a majority of tactical shooters will as well. Not to mention the fact that tactical long range shooters are just a small fraction of the optics market.

 

[ORD]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Im not sure who makes it but may be worth looking into. </div></div>

I think that is the smaller objective model scope from the Birdman Weapons System lineup. The larger objective model uses the famous "dual funnel" eyepiece and objective lens set...excellent all the way around and available for 99.5% of the shooters on a tight budget (the other 0.5% will always want something for NOTHING).

 

[JFComfort]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Call USO they will build it! It will cost you more than $1k.

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

man you guys aught to listen to yourselves, snobish is the word that comes to mind.

 

[Johnny Lately]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">man you guys aught to listen to yourselves, snobish is the word that comes to mind. </div></div>

And idiot is the word that comes to mind when thinking of you and your view.

Like was said earlier, tooling cost money, R&D cost money, QC cost money. Remember also that they are selling to a niche market, if they were to sell a million of these scopes, then the price would really come down.

 

[sharac]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Snobish or no snobish fact is that building quality optics aint easy and business entering costs are big enough to prevent "homebrew" to compete with the big boys. Downside is the price and as someone said they have it, you want it, you pay - or don't. I think Vortex did a great job with their PST i also like Hawke for 300$ it WILL do anything a scope must (provide consistent aim point and visible target). What your original question was is more in the line of a custom need and for that YOU WILL pay or you WON'T have everything exactly the way you want it - word compromise sounds familiar?

I agree that some stuff is overvalued and overpriced however as long as they are making profits and people buying who am i to argue with their price policy or business decisions. It always comes down to individual choice and how much is one willing to pay and for what (features, wow factor, bragging rights, warm fuzzy feeling, whatever...).

 

[Kevlars]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

It all comes down to quality. If we are to say that quality is repeatability, then we all agree because that is where the tru cost is. Of course you have the cost for the quality raw material, but putting it together the same way each time that is the trick. Also where the cost is in QA...quality staff costs money. Not to mention the machines that make and test optics, not including the service contracts as they have to be calibrated on a schedule.

What I am tried of hearing is people belly ache about the lack of jobs, and in the same breath say that items cost too much. Look American made quality stuff costs money. If you don't want quality there is alway counter sniper.

The optics community can alway use another manufacturer, and if you can deliver the quality optic for the price point...I will stand in line to get it.

But I don't think anyone here is arrogant. They just know what they want and they know what it costs.

Cheers

 

[Kevlars]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

And I am done feeding the trolls.

 

[Chiller]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">man you guys aught to listen to yourselves, snobish is the word that comes to mind. </div></div>

Are you an Optics Engineer?

A Machinist?

Tool and die manufacturer?

A Capitalist?

To me your initial comment is born of ignorance.

Next time I am up North we can go out and I can introduce you to why your desires have associated costs.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

This was a really timely rant something like 6 years ago.

 

[Yasherka]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

"ought" and "snobbish"

And no, they are not. Quality costs money. Put high quality glass with repeatable mechanics into a package that will consistently function regardless of abuse, and you are going to have a scope that is a wallet drainer.

This is before you factor in, as others have pointed out, R&D costs, employee salaries, insurance, business taxes and profit. Oh yes, that evil motivator profit that makes things like USO, S&B, and Premier possible. They charge more because they can...i.e. people perceive them as being worth it. It's the market. If it was Maser producing Counter Sniper knockoffs in his garage, I'm thinking he couldn't command that premium.

Don't forget the old adage: that credibility is gained in inches and lost in yards. The above mentioned companies have LOTS of credibility, and that is one issue that causes slow adoption for new entries to the market (reading posts here shows there are a number of people waiting to see how the Vortex PST line shakes out before purchasing one).

Go ahead, start your own company and produce that dream scope. If you produce your wish list in a fieldworthy package at somewhere close to your target price I'll buy one, hell I may buy several. But I think you're in for a rude shock though.

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnny Lately</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">man you guys aught to listen to yourselves, snobish is the word that comes to mind. </div></div>

And idiot is the word that comes to mind when thinking of you and your view.

Like was said earlier, tooling cost money, R&D cost money, QC cost money. Remember also that they are selling to a niche market, if they were to sell a million of these scopes, then the price would really come down. </div></div>

thanks for the nice comments, sorry your having a bad day. I just wanted to have a simple discussion about what I would like to see in a scope and what features that you guys would like to see in a scope. clearly there had been some features not available at a certain price point, because of the hype with the PST, if everyone had it there wouldn't be much excitement over the scope.

lets face it 3 grand is alot of money for an optic. I can buy zeiss or leica RF binoculars for nearly 1/3 less, look at the R&D that went into something like those. much more than a scope. a guy could buy 2 plasma screen tv's for that, again alot more complicated and research involved. I am all for making a profit, perhaps if the cost was less more would buy and volume would make up for it.

anyways back to the reason I started this, what features would you like to see that are not offered together by one optics company. I said mine whats yours.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

I can assure you that less RD went into the Binos than the scopes.....Binos dont have to adjust a reticle, binos dont have to have a parralax calibrated correctly, binos dont have to have an erector system, binos dont have to have lit reticles.... In short, your statement about Binos being more RD costs than scopes is ridiculous.

 

[Chiller]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

It also has to do with the target market.
Your analogy of a Plasma TV is inherently flawed. How many people of the given population 300,000,000+ in the US have multiple TVs?

Using the same population how many of them are in the shooting sports?

Of that population how many use optics?

Of that population how many use tactical Optics?


Of that population how many use Long distance Tactical optics?

Get the point?

To come on and make adamant statements that are not founded in the truth or reality and then to defend them when inherent flaws are shown in your argument moves you from ignorance (lack of understanding) to foolishness.

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can assure you that less RD went into the Binos than the scopes.....Binos dont have to adjust a reticle, binos dont have to have a parralax calibrated correctly, binos dont have to have an erector system, binos dont have to have lit reticles.... In short, your statement about Binos being more RD costs than scopes is ridiculous.

</div></div>

ok a company like swarovski a much larger optics company than nightforce or USO or schmidt and bender don't even offer an RF binocular, despite there being a huge demand, despite lots of people asking them where is the product. zeiss actually hired away the guy who designed the leica geovids so they could design and bring to market an RF binocular. the point is this technology had to be created, internal adjustments, parralax, erectors, etc is all technology that has been around since what like the 1930's?? I don't think my statement is "ridiculous" my point is stop and think what 3 grand will buy you. all I am saying is there is alot of stuff that is way way overpriced, if more companies offerd the features you or I want it would force the price down.

what if an optic could be made so that the style of turret could be changed to suit ones needs?? there is alot of monkey see monkey do around here. if it looks tactical it must be cool. think functional

 

[deadly0311]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

I do think functional, i do know what goes into a RD costs and scope/bino making....i work for Zeiss.

Im not just talking out of my ass.

Likewise, you cant just change the turret system to cater to everyone. Thats a pretty complex system, its not just oh lets change the knobs from mil to MOA and offer it to anyone. You cant do it. Tell you what, you design your scope call up Light Optical and see if they will make and for how much.

 

[Chiller]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do think functional, i do know what goes into a RD costs and scope/bino making....i work for Zeiss.

Im not just talking out of my ass.

Likewise, you cant just change the turret system to cater to everyone. Thats a pretty complex system, its not just oh lets change the knobs from mil to MOA and offer it to anyone. You cant do it. Tell you what, you design your scope call up Light Optical and see if they will make and for how much. </div></div>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6DrRE1LDY_U"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6DrRE1LDY_U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Not so sure on that....

 

[deadly0311]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

cant even watch the video Chiller......fail

 

[Chiller]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cant even watch the video Chiller......fail

</div></div>

Damn.....

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

This place is getting weird.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cant even watch the video Chiller......fail

</div></div>

Damn.....
</div></div>

Maybe we should get a Moderator to help out Chiller to post the video ... oh wait ... He is a Moderator ... LOL !!!

Nice Chiller

 

[jeo556]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Dude, it's way easier to admit that you are wrong(and actually look better in the eyes of your peers) than it is to try and argue your way out of of a retarded post. Just chalk it up to lack or sleep, coffee. or both and we can all move on.

P.S. Keep this on the Down low but what you are looking for is a CounterSniper. Amazing price for some of the best tactical scopes in the business.

 

[neeley205]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Ideology vs. Reality. Making quality products takes quality workers, equipment and research. All those things cost more. There is a point of diminishing returns when striving for quality, but some are willing to pay for that. Look at any product with a broad spectrum of quality, guns, bikes, instruments, cars, optics etc. . You have the base level, its pretty easy to improve that product with a little investment. But as you get closer to the pinacle of ability (highest quality) that extra 10% costs quite a bit extra. Shaving those last few ounces off from a road bike, the last few horsepower you can squeeze out of an engine, that last 1/8moa tighter shooting rifle, why does one guitar cost $3K and one $300? People who know and understand, CAN tell the difference and they understand and appreciate the huge amount of effort that goes into a zero compromize product. That little extra takes lots of effort. Its a function, and you looking at it linearly.

Your thought process shows that you have never been involved in the production or manufacture of things.

Go in your garage and built a bookshelf, now build a nice bookshelf. Now, I want you to buy all the gear and find someone skilled enough to build an heirloom quality bookshelf, and you will see how something so simple can get so expensive.

 

[Magstang1]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Don't forget advertising costs. I see some manufacturers plastered EVERYWHERE.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

With all seriousness ...(at least all I can manage this early) I understand that $3K is a lot of money. But that is the price of precision. No one is telling you or forcing anyone to purchase a 3K scope. However, if you want the level of precision that the US Optics, Nightforce, etc. Then you have to pony up. If you dont believe that it should cost that much ... well then you should re-examin your basic business knowledge (that is not a knock just a fact) quality costs money plane and simple. (If you think a rifle scope is expensive try Astronomy, my last scope cost me 10K so that it can track accuratly and consistantly. The computers that create the gears cost 4M and that does not include the refinishing system that they have to go through.) There are several other companies that dont offer the quality and are well within your $$ range. Dont you think that thoes less expensive companies would offer what your asking for if they could for a lesser amount and steel the market share from Night Force and US Optics? of course they would it is good business... but they cant -- sure they can put a turret on it, but the know that if it is crap then they will lose their reputation ... so they dont. they are happy to offer what they can well and leave the zero stop and Highspeed turrets for the companies that charge more money because it costs more money to produce. At the end of the day the products live and die by what people are willing spend and the quality of the product.

As to why some people here took exception and made it known on the post. Well you come here with 25 posts an incomplete profile and call us "snobish" You tell me if some people would take exception to that. We are all here to learn and to exchange information with honest intentions. Its all in how you ask and your tone (which is very hard to distinguish in a post). I have had my hand slapped due to my tone and what I asked in the begining This forum has a world of knowledge and people are sitting on the edge of their seats to share ... The secret is the method in which you ask and communicate.

And to answer your questions ...what will 3K purchase -- about 2oz of Gold --- not a hell of a lot these days. And if I had my choice between spending $1500 for a scope assembled in Mexico or a $2500 scope made in USA I have and will always opt for the $2500.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hidesertcowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">maybe I should start my own optics company. </div></div> Yes, you should. I look forward to your recipe being offered for under $1k.

Until then, I'll call Austin.

 

[beretta_man11]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

Almost sounds like he isn't happy with his Counter Sniper....

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beretta_man11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Almost sounds like he isn't happy with his Counter Sniper....

</div></div>

Blaspheme!!!

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

ok forget costs, I shouldn't have went down that road, my point about turrets and being able to change them out was maybe have a system that allows the changing out of styles of turret caps. maybe have and option for a covered low profile cap, a large easy to grip cap, or a medium cap. I don't think for a minute one could change between 1/4 moa to .1 mil adjustments without changing major internals of the scope.

MY POINT IN ALL THIS WAS ARE THERE FEATURES THAT ARE MISSING THAT THE PUBLIC WANTS FROM THEIR OPTICS!!!!!! I think its a legitimate question, but I suppose I am an idiot and a dumbass for asking. I somehow use counter sniper and BSA scopes and am a rookie. and my post is retarded. I said what I thought was missing from an optic, we have beat price to death. no one has responded with any features they would like to see, instead I am called an idiot, retarded etc. I really have to question the happiness of some of your lives, maybe your having a bad day. I dunno.

please by all means state what features you want to see, but leave the personal insults out, I have a thick skin, it appears many around here don't.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you some questions....
-Why is a zero stop necassary, if you have a 2 revolution scope, why is the stop needed?
-The latest and greatest whizbang reticle wont help you shoot any better.....i've never felt under equipped with a mildot reticle. Its the indian not the arrow.
-When you start throwing alot of elevation on a single turn, it has downfalls....such as clicks being really close, possibly missing your mark due to them being close. </div></div>

Sounds like someone sells Hennies

Just dickin' with ya Austin....but really, how's the new reticle selling?

We actually have WAY more quality options now than any time I know of regarding good tactical scopes.
But.......you do get what you pay for.

The most important scope qualities in my book:
-reliable f'ing adjustments
-f'ing reliable adjustments
-f'ing reliable f'ing adjustments
^there's my top three, everything else is a bonus but without them, nothing else matters.

And reliability isn't cheap, but confidence is very sexy.

 

[Guest]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The most important scope qualities in my book:
-reliable f'ing adjustments
-f'ing reliable adjustments
-f'ing reliable f'ing adjustments
^there's my top three, everything else is a bonus but without them, nothing else matters.
</div></div>

10-4 on that!!!!! if the glass is decent to ok, I would take that and a scope that has reliable adjustments. over something with maybe it works maybe it doesn't adjustments and awesome glass. thanks for a constructive comment

 

[deadly0311]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

the NH-1 is the best seller of ours Steve

I dont sell them what you talkin bout....

Things that i want in a scope are:

-tracks true
-positive adjustments
-no major problems
-good glass
-a history behind the company

Want a scope with an onboard ballistic computer that gives you a come up for any range? All you gotta tell it is the muzzle velocity, bc (which are both stored on the computer) and range and wind at shooter and it will give a you ballistic solution...problem is, it only costs 10K.

Whiz bang is great on somethings, but the latest and greatest high speed doo dad on a scope is to me useless....give me something that is going to work everytime under any condition.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Re: are optics companies missing it??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Keep this on the Down low but what you are looking for is a CounterSniper. Amazing price for some of the best tactical scopes in the business. </div></div>

That's exactly what I was thinking! He needs a Counter Sniper! These scopes are the best kept secret in military/tacticool optics! He could get everything he wants for under a grand!