Are pistol braces next.

[2ndamendfan]

I know we had the debate about braces. I ask is doing 80mph in an 80mph limit zone illegal, yes braces push the edge but so what. Well now just like bump stocks, they are going to be under the microscope.

Dayton shooter used a modified gun that may have exploited a legal loophole

Even though it looked like a rifle, the gun used in the Dayton shooting was likely classified as a pistol – legally skirting laws regarding short-barreled rifles.

www.usatoday.com

 

[ArmyJerry]

no

 

[Downtown]

Yeah, I fear yes. Something that could quite obviously be changed by rule interpretation and no good argument against it. Except, of course, arguing against the whole stupid NFA.

 

[deersniper]

This is fucking retarted.


Cause he wouldn't have been able to kill those people with a pistol. Or rifle. Or pistol upper on rifle lower. Wtf.

 

[Nik H]

Pistol braces for certain
Armor not soon after
Maybe NV / Thermal

 

[hafejd30]

Who gives a shit anyways, Pistol braces are like ordering a beer at the bar and asking for a fucking straw! If you really want a pistol than build a pistol, if you want a SBR than spend $200, wait 25-30 days and put a damn stock on it.

I had the brace. Was annoying as hell. Letting someone look at the gun and having to explain that they can’t hold it to their shoulder to check it out or they’re a felon makes you look like a sketchy bitch.

The pistol with or without a brace is a great way to currently own the gun you want and be ready to convert over to sbr when you get your stamp, if that’s your real desire.

I’m more worried about the mag capacity or them implementing something as stupid as a bullet button

Yes before someone says they can make a sbr illegal to well I’m sure that bridge is coming up at some point

Til then, build it, buy it, sbr it and shoot the shit out of it!

 

[Nik H]

Not all of us can own an SBR and you can shoulder the brace all day long

 

[hafejd30]

Not all of us can own an SBR and you can shoulder the brace all day long

State law?

I’m from MI. My SBR needs to be registered in state as a pistol. Which allows me to carry loaded in vehicle under ccw etc.

I’m not saying we should give them up. I don’t believe in giving up any piece of my rifles. I’m just saying if sbr is what you seek than pony up and get what you want.

Unless of course as you state you can’t. I don’t know your situation

And no you can’t shoulder it all day long. At least if others are present. The ATF clarified that

 

[Nik H]

We can't own NFA in my state. If I could I would.

Please cite the reference from the ATF that states you can't shoulder it.

The reference I cite says...

“To the extent the January 2015 Open Letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational ‘use’ of an arm-brace (in its original approved configuration) equipped firearm from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute a ‘redesign,’ such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF’s interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced.”

I have no problem admitting I am wrong....

 

[atomic41]

Please cite the reference from the ATF that states you can't shoulder it.

They just eased up a little bit but shouldering is still not ok. They worded as something like "incidental" shouldering is ok but intentional is not. It's still a very gray area and if you do it on video you are taking a big risk.

 

[hafejd30]

Max Kingery, Acting chief is the one who put the letter out

It’s a 2 page letter. Straight from atf. look under my name and find where I asked a legal question about AR Pistols. AMGtuned posted the letter there. It’s legit

 

[Nik H]

They just eased up a little bit but shouldering is still not ok. They worded as something like "incidental" shouldering is ok but intentional is not. It's still a very gray area and if you do it on video you are taking a big risk.

Eased up....c'mon. This is law not fun and games and we are talking about the ATF. My point is the word incidental means whatin this context...does it define frequency or what? Vague is vague and incidental in this context means liable to happen as a consequence of an activity.....like shooting a rifle.

As long as you have not modified the brace from its original configuration, shouldering isn't a violation of the NFA. I agree don't be an idiot and broadcast it.

 

[hafejd30]

Again I’m not saying taking away anything is right. But I didn’t see anyone putting up a fight over bump stocks. Government says you can’t have them and off they go. You can sign bullshit petitions and what not all day long but it doesn’t do shit.

The ATF isn’t made up of idiots. There a mix batch of people but many are gun owners themselves. They are able to ID any loopholes and they close them off. They want their $200. The ATF wants guns that look like sbr to be sbr’s.

The only thing I see they did is matched up to Michigan’s law on measuring OAL of firearms. Other than that they made it so you can have a Form 1 SBR or Can in less than a month.

I would hate to be on anything related to ATF/NFA with the current political BS going on

 

[hafejd30]

“I do it all the time at the clubs I belong and no one has even batted an eye”
[/QUOTE]

That’s not something I’d post on a public forum just FYI

If you shoot using the brace like it’s a stock than it’s illegal. Take a look at that letter. It basically erases what your referring to

 

[Nik H]

Again I’m not saying taking away anything is right. But I didn’t see anyone putting up a fight over bump stocks. Government says you can’t have them and off they go. You can sign bullshit petitions and what not all day long but it doesn’t do shit.

The ATF isn’t made up of idiots. There a mix batch of people but many are gun owners themselves. They are able to ID any loopholes and they close them off. They want their $200. The ATF wants guns that look like sbr to be sbr’s.

The only thing I see they did is matched up to Michigan’s law on measuring OAL of firearms. Other than that they made it so you can have a Form 1 SBR or Can in less than a month.

I would hate to be on anything related to ATF/NFA with the current political BS going on

Their recent change in policy relative to measuring the OAL IF you are using a brace that FOLDS and you attach a VFG to the weapon makes perfect sense to me. People took it to a logical extreme...let me use a folding brace with a VFG....c'mon people why fuck up a good thing...

 

[Nik H]

“I do it all the time at the clubs I belong and no one has even batted an eye”

I have read the letter and so have many others....you do it your way and I'll do it my way...good luck to you

 

[hafejd30]

Their recent change in policy relative to measuring the OAL IF you are using a brace that FOLDS and you attach a VFG to the weapon makes perfect sense to me. People took it to a logical extreme...let me use a folding brace with a VFG....c'mon people why fuck up a good thing...

Again, they see loop holes and close them. It’s not hard every forum has people asking how to get around the laws and every forum probably has atf agents on them. This one probably has many and most are probably here because they enjoy the same things we do

 

[Campguy308]

I'll be surprised if we get to keep anything before it's over with.

 

[Nik H]

I'll be surprised if we get to keep anything before it's over with.

This I can believe

 

[Campguy308]

Braces are low hanging fruit. Next is magazines and AR/AKs, then any semi auto with a detachable mag including pistols, then bolt guns and shotguns with detachable mags, then all bolts and shotguns. Nothing but revolvers and single shots allowed, then those will go eventually. Combine that with red flag laws and your pissed off neighbor calling you in cause he doesnt like you, and we are fucked. Change my mind.

 

[hafejd30]

I have read the letter and so have many others....you do it your way and I'll do it my way...good luck to you

If your going to edit the reference to my post at least don’t make it look like I said it....

If your LEO’s are cool with your AR pistol the way it is than role with it. I can tell you as a 3.5 year LEO that nobody I worked with would give a shit less. But eventually I believe the braces are going bye bye and I can have NFA items and the wait times only seem to grow so I chose to apply now rather than wait a month or two and fall 8 months behind in the line for a form 1.

Sorry dude, this shit is just starting to piss me off. I’m a law abiding citizen just like everyone else. Not a psycho like these other assclowns. However I’ll be giving up stuff for their poor upbringing and decisions

 

[2ndamendfan]

@hafejd30 do what you want but you are wrong on shouldering a brace.

 

[hafejd30]

@hafejd30 do what you want but you are wrong on shouldering a brace.

So I can go to a public range, shoulder every shot for 200 rounds and not a care in the world? Any proof. AMGtuned provided the last legit letter I’ve seen. If you have another source I’m happy to see it

I’m not referring to shouldering 10 shots out of 200 FYI. That’s allowed as I understand. But I’m willing to hear what you have in regards to that

 

[2ndamendfan]

There are other issues with NFA that infringe on my rights that a brace does not.

For example I have SBRs and one brace. I some times go hunting near the state border (both states have same regulations on coyotes). Stepping across the border without filling out form 5320 and kindly requesting permission (like asking mom for a cookie) 3-6 months in advance and getting caught could get me in serious trouble causing me to loose all my NFA items.

Brace equipped pistol I can walk all over the imaginary line that violates my rights.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I have read the letter and so have many others....you do it your way and I'll do it my way...good luck to you

Question:

So the letter states shouldering, as in the pocket of the shoulder or near it, but does the ATF consider placing the brace on the center of the pec as shouldering?

I only ask because I’ve heard conflicting things and many of you here seem to have experience with these braces.

Also, talk of banning braces is about as stupid as the previous AWB that banned 6-pt stocks but not 4-pt. ...or banning the A2 birdcage but not a brake. lol

 

[2ndamendfan]

So I can go to a public range, shoulder every shot for 200 rounds and not a care in the world? Any proof. AMGtuned provided the last legit letter I’ve seen. If you have another source I’m happy to see it

I’m not referring to shouldering 10 shots out of 200 FYI. That’s allowed as I understand. But I’m willing to hear what you have in regards to that

Why in the Fuck would 10 shots be okay but not 200.

That is like saying you can drive 95 in a 75 zone for 5 miles but more than 7 and you are in deep shit.

 

[hafejd30]

Why in the Fuck would 10 shots be okay but not 200.

That is like saying you can drive 95 in a 75 zone for 5 miles but more than 7 and you are in deep shit.

Because the reference is to occasional and unintentional shouldering....get caught by the wrong person shouldering for 10 rounds vs 10/200 rounds is the occasional part.

Speed laws say nothing about occasional speeding is ok, just like punching someone in the face is not okay on occasion....

I see your point on the border part tho

 

[Nik H]

So I can go to a public range, shoulder every shot for 200 rounds and not a care in the world? Any proof. AMGtuned provided the last legit letter I’ve seen. If you have another source I’m happy to see it

I’m not referring to shouldering 10 shots out of 200 FYI. That’s allowed as I understand. But I’m willing to hear what you have in regards to that

Why don't you provide us with proof that you can't...

Why not apply some clear thought to what you are saying...

The ATF says...incidental, sporadic, etc. How do they prove that it wasn't unless they are there and then I'd like to see them make that stick in a court of law after writing a letter like they did which a body of others have interpreted differently than you are.

And you're right...I have no clue who you fucking are so I did edit it...my prerogative to do so

 

[hafejd30]

Why don't you provide us with proof that you can't...

Why not apply some clear thought to what you are saying...

The ATF says...incidental, sporadic, etc. How do they prove that it wasn't unless they are there and then I'd like to see them make that stick in a court of law after writing a letter like they did which a body of others have interpreted differently than you are.

And you're right...I have no clue who you fucking are so I did edit it...my prerogative to do so

I provided you with where to find the letter. It’s been discussed on many occasions. You choose to run a brace as a stock because “no one bats an eye” and that’s on you. The wrong person records it and your in for a short range session.

Continue doing what you please

 

[deersniper]

 

[deersniper]

It matters if you alter the brace.


It doesn't matter at all how you use it

 

[hafejd30]

It matters if you alter the brace.


It doesn't matter at all how you use it

Is that new? The 2017 letter stated that. The one I’m referring to was this year. February if I remember correctly

 

[hafejd30]

This is the letter from earlier this year. I confirmed it on ATF website. Since the Ohio shooting the letter has been removed from the ATF website. Google it and it will not show it. Just guessing but that can’t be a good thing

 

[7.62willdo]

Hope you can make a few copy’s

 

[deersniper]

Is that new? The 2017 letter stated that. The one I’m referring to was this year. February if I remember correctly

Edit. Same letter.
It says you have to redesign the brace for it to be illegal.

 

[deersniper]

Copy of letter for people to print

https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces.pdf

 

[hafejd30]

What I was looking at was the part that states using is at a shoulder stock constitutes the redesign of the stock. 3rd paragraph from the bottom.

 

[deersniper]

How did "shall not be infringed " turn into this shit show?

Anyways.

Can you shoulder an AR-15 pistol brace in 2020?

If you're new to the AR pistol game (or black rifles in general), it's important to know a few laws and ATF regulations concerning how firearms are classified, lest you wind up in legal hot water: An AR-15 rifle must have an overall length of no less than 26". An AR-15 rifle must have a...

www.80lowerjig.com

Here is the most recent letter.

 

[deersniper]

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

 

[Nik H]

Much too much time spent on this foolish subject

 

[hafejd30]

Thank you for the info. I agree to much time spent.

The way I read it, with reference to the flare gun example, is that when you shoulder the brace it is now redesigned and considered a stock. What is interpreted as sporadic I guess is still to be determined.

In 2017 it seemed you could shoulder without much worry. In 2019 it seemed to have reverted back to original and even shouldering considered it a redesign.

In a month who knows where it will be.

To each their own

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

In Confusion there is opportunity,...

 

[2ndamendfan]

Laws with ambiguity are almost never up held in court.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laws with ambiguity are almost never up held in court.

Correct, but how long does it take to get whats yours back thereafter? I know of a few folks still watching their shit being used by LEO's kin everyday, an their charges were dropped an they never had to do court. Were they guilty, most likely, but the bottom line is they were never in a court room or found guilty by a jury, yet their shit was never returned. Corrupt fucking systems everywhere, leaves a bad taste for LE everywhere there after.

 

[deersniper]

Correct, but how long does it take to get whats yours back thereafter? I know of a few folks still watching their shit being used by LEO's kin everyday, an their charges were dropped an they never had to do court. Were they guilty, most likely, but the bottom line is they were never in a court room or found guilty by a jury, yet their shit was never returned. Corrupt fucking systems everywhere, leaves a bad taste for LE everywhere there after.

 

[Ric O'shay]

Seems to me that keeping this topic off the radar is fine with me. I cringe when I see you-tubers, flippant photo takers, letter writers and brace debaters stirring the pot.
I like the current stance of the BATF

 

[shootist2004]

Who gives a shit anyways, Pistol braces are like ordering a beer at the bar and asking for a fucking straw! If you really want a pistol than build a pistol, if you want a SBR than spend $200, wait 25-30 days and put a damn stock on it.

I had the brace. Was annoying as hell. Letting someone look at the gun and having to explain that they can’t hold it to their shoulder to check it out or their a felon makes you look like a sketchy bitch.

The pistol with or without a brace is a great way to currently own the gun you want and be ready to convert over to sbr when you get your stamp, if that’s your real desire.

I’m more worried about the mag capacity or them implementing something as stupid as a bullet button

Yes before someone says they can make a sbr illegal to well I’m sure that bridge is coming up at some point

Til then, build it, buy it, sbr it and shoot the shit out of it!

25-30 days? I guess things have sure changed since I got my can.............

 

[Downtown]

Form 1s, to manufacture a NFA item, have a very short turnaround. Some here have cited waits as short as ten days.

 

[hafejd30]

25-30 days? I guess things have sure changed since I got my can.............

Yes sir, Efile form 1 took 25 days. That’s about the average currently

 

[FishinGuns]

I’m from MI. My SBR needs to be registered in state as a pistol. Which allows me to carry loaded in vehicle under ccw etc.

The fuck!?!

I’m from Michigan, too. You need to consult an attorney. Yes our SBR’s need to be registered as pistols, but as soon as you slap that real-deal stock on the buffer tube and utilize that $200 dollar stamp you paid for, you have to transport that little guy like a rifle again. It has a stock on it now... that’s the key.

AR pistols are for traveling loaded, plain and simple, without the need to deal with the nuances of your SBR stamp. It’s good to have both and I’ll be pissed as hell if they take it away. I want loaded mags in my vehicle.