My first precision 22lr rifle was built by Ga Precision back in 2020. Had Mullerworks send them a 24” mtu blank in 1:12 twist. He was recommending 1:13 but i wanted 1:12. They got one done for me and sent to gap to be built on rimx action. Gap built full blown custom rifle that is a work of art. It never performed very well at 50 yards. Shoots most ammo between .3 and .4. Shoots around 1-1.25 at 100. But it out shoots all my other builds at distance. It shines at 250 and out. Just wonder if anyone else has shared same experience.
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Are the fast twist barrels a thing of the past?
- Thread starter Kahrhart63
- Start date
It’s not dead , others are playing and barrel manufactures are making barrels , you wil get answers ranging all over the spectrum but what you are experiencing is normal , some get good groups at 50/100 but most don’t out shoot 1/16 until they go past 100/150 then the faster twist takes over if you have a good barrel and smith and ammo
Maybe others will chime in
Maybe others will chime in
I have found some lots of r50 and tenex that will do better at 50. Average in 2’s. But most are in 3’s-4
By what I see people are still doing a lot of 1-13 and 1-12t. I shot these groups back to back at 50yds a couple weeks ago with my 25” 1-13t muller works chambered by DI. I was using R50. Haven’t had a chance to really stretch it out at distance. It’s coming though.
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I have a vudoo built by di precision! 24 inch mullerworks 1:16 mtu. Hammer. But 1:12 is better at 250 and out. Only have 450 yards to shoot. 1:12 mullerworks does better at these distances
It'd be interesting to see results with 22lr from a fast twist barrel,
indoors, from a fixture, 100 yards, 50 shots at a single aim point.
I figure at that distance the group spread would be educational.
No wind, no skill, just barrel and cartridge quality affecting trajectories.
Double the distance gives triple the spread,
extrapolate the group size out to 400 yards.
indoors, from a fixture, 100 yards, 50 shots at a single aim point.
I figure at that distance the group spread would be educational.
No wind, no skill, just barrel and cartridge quality affecting trajectories.
Double the distance gives triple the spread,
extrapolate the group size out to 400 yards.
I hear ya' hoyt.
I'd still like to see all 50 shots at a single aim point.
The best 100 yard 50 shot group I've seen with 22lr was 0.85 inch.
The best 200 yard 50 shot group was 3 inches.
I would be interested in seeing if a fast twist could better those results.
Assuming someone could obtain some decent ammunition.
I'd still like to see all 50 shots at a single aim point.
The best 100 yard 50 shot group I've seen with 22lr was 0.85 inch.
The best 200 yard 50 shot group was 3 inches.
I would be interested in seeing if a fast twist could better those results.
Assuming someone could obtain some decent ammunition.
I’m not saying this to be provocative, but if you could find such rimfire ammo in near-limitless supply (like good CF ammo, or handloads), would you just get bored of rimfire?I hear ya' hoyt.
I'd still like to see all 50 shots at a single aim point.
The best 100 yard 50 shot group I've seen with 22lr was 0.85 inch.
The best 200 yard 50 shot group was 3 inches.
I would be interested in seeing if a fast twist could better those results.
Assuming someone could obtain some decent ammunition.
Again, just asking straight up, not being a jackwagon.
My 1:12 can hit 4 inch steel plate pretty regular at 300. My other rifles seem to prefer a 6 inch.
Fast twist 22lr will be affected by wind more. Play with the numbers on a ballistic calculator
That’s what I’ve noticed going from 20” Ace 1-16 MTU to this 25” 1-13t. Last weekend I had some switching 5-7mph winds at 100yds and it was hard keeping it under 1moa.
Being this is a fast tw thread, and the end goal isn't 50 yards, things change real fast at 300 yards. Even the best 22LR ammo ever made can fight conditions.
I guess I consider wind drift measurable to an extent. Not sure on others, but I went fast tw to control the vertical aspect of 22LR at distance. Does that mean I don't get educated often, NO.
Hey Carbon, if I could find quality 22lr that produced consistent accuracy,
I'd give up reloading centerfire and sell my 223 F-Class.
Currently I shoot 22lr to warm up before breaking out the 223.
Work out the yips and learn the range conditions before sending the handloads.
I'd give up reloading centerfire and sell my 223 F-Class.
Currently I shoot 22lr to warm up before breaking out the 223.
Work out the yips and learn the range conditions before sending the handloads.
We will never get rimfire near as consistent as centerfire! Thats what keeps rimfire from being boring.
I dont shoot this old girl much anymore. It is bedded in a manners t2a gap stock. I prefer chassis now. But took it out today and had a fun time at distance! Always a good time!
Conditions, always a player. My 13 tw shoots .5-6 at 50 yards, yet I have shot numerous 5 shot 3/4" groups at 250 yards. I cannot do this on command.I hear ya' hoyt.
I'd still like to see all 50 shots at a single aim point.
The best 100 yard 50 shot group I've seen with 22lr was 0.85 inch.
The best 200 yard 50 shot group was 3 inches.
I would be interested in seeing if a fast twist could better those results.
Assuming someone could obtain some decent ammunition.
By my CF past, makes no logical sense. My scope, ZCO 525 is bottomed out at 50 yards, optical center??? I don't buy that with these modern scopes.
It is definatly backwards from my experience also! Been playing with rimfire since early 70’s. 52’s, 40x, 54’s. And have been playig with these latest since jonathon converted a 40x into a repeater. Been a trip down the rabbit hole for years
50 shots at 200 yards in 3" is a feat, IMO. Could it be bested by someone, no doubt, but the shooter accomplishing it better pull the plug at 25 rds and concentrate at 400 yards and have a talking point.I hear ya' hoyt.
I'd still like to see all 50 shots at a single aim point.
The best 100 yard 50 shot group I've seen with 22lr was 0.85 inch.
The best 200 yard 50 shot group was 3 inches.
I would be interested in seeing if a fast twist could better those results.
Assuming someone could obtain some decent ammunition.
There are people out there doing stuff with fast tw barrels that won't post because of the scrutiny that will ensue, The community is tight lipped.
I read a post on Rimfudd Central where some clown needed a 90% hit ratio on a 12" plate at 600 to spark his interest, yet most likely could not produce a 90% X count on a target he shot himself at 50 yards.
Last Thursday morning I kept a 3" NRL target paddle swinging at 300 yards with 10 shots from Rim X from one 10 rd mag. Sunday, I tried again and failed to come close, yet my 16tw Vudoo was almost up to the task!
Rimfire!
I read a post on Rimfudd Central where some clown needed a 90% hit ratio on a 12" plate at 600 to spark his interest, yet most likely could not produce a 90% X count on a target he shot himself at 50 yards.
Last Thursday morning I kept a 3" NRL target paddle swinging at 300 yards with 10 shots from Rim X from one 10 rd mag. Sunday, I tried again and failed to come close, yet my 16tw Vudoo was almost up to the task!
Rimfire!
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I have ordered a Shilen 1:12" twist blank to test, but don't expect better results than my standard 1:16" twist Bartlein barrel on my Vudoo. These groups were shot with my 1:16" twist Bartlein barrel at 437 yards recently. Attached groups were all shot with 3 different lots of RWS ammo. The block inside the tape on the steel plate measures 300mm x 300mm (almost 12" x 12").
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I have a Bore Buddy Apogee 21" barrel with 1-12 twist. I have only shot about 100-125 rounds through it at 50 and 100 yards. I have shot CCI Standard, CCI AR Tactical, Norma Tac22 and SK Rifle Match through it. So far I keep getting 1 flyer in every 5 shot group with all the ammo I have tried. The flyers are anywhere from 3/4" to 1" out from the rest of the group.
Maybe I need to shoot it more to break it in, who knows. I did notice that I have two tight spots in the bore towards the middle of the barrel and that might be causing me issues too.
Needless to say, my heavy 16" CMMG barrel with 1-16 test and my Savage MkII with its heavy varmint barrel with 1-16 twist definitely outshoots the 1-12 Apogee barrel out to 100 yards with zero flyers (unless I mess up).
Maybe I need to shoot it more to break it in, who knows. I did notice that I have two tight spots in the bore towards the middle of the barrel and that might be causing me issues too.
Needless to say, my heavy 16" CMMG barrel with 1-16 test and my Savage MkII with its heavy varmint barrel with 1-16 twist definitely outshoots the 1-12 Apogee barrel out to 100 yards with zero flyers (unless I mess up).
I don't think you could get a fair comparison, most likely the barrels are different, ammo not the same, etc...
My example:
Vudoo 22", 16tw, Lapua Long range at 1119 fps muzzle velocity
Rim X 24", 13tw, RWS R50 at 1127 fps MV
At 300 yards my up dopes are, Vudoo 11.9 mils, Rim X 11.6 mils with a 50 yard zero. By 600 there is about a 1 mil split with the Rim X needing less.
By running a .137 BC across the board with Vudoo, my dopes are pretty sound from 200 yards and out.
The Rim X needs a fair amount of manipulation, adjust MV to 1140, up BC to .140, and things match up relatively well.
To my eye, the bullets look comparable, and actually putting 3 or more on a bullseye is more of a pipe dream than reality at 5-600 yards. I don't think there is a ballistic solver that will give the spread differences with just an 8 fps difference.
I don't have the education to figure this out, but somewhere around 250 yards, the additional spin adds to the BC of the bullet, which of course results in the bullet flying better, more speed, increased stability, more BC.
You think the fast twist (13t) has less velocity drop at the target than the 16t?
Todd
The main point of fast twist on centerfire (bullet design/weight aside) was for transonic performance. That may very well be doubly true with .22 RF, but most of us are intentionally shooting subsonic. I wouldn't be surprised if 1:12 really shined at distance with .22 RF match rounds starting around 1400 FPS, but that really isn't a thing yet. I really don't see the point yet for stuff that is starting subsonic.
My opinion only, I do. But like I said above, not sure if the 2 brands of bullets are comparable. If the RWS bullet is a better bullet, the answer is right there.
As far as I know, there is no electronic target system that will pick up 22LR rds. I'll buy one if one is available, make ammo testing a whole lot simpler.
I'm a 50 yard benchrest shooter. I have no experience in shooting long range 22 rimfire but have watched the interest in faster twist for the last couple years. With Paul producing 13 and 16 twist 8 grooves, testing should be easier. Quality will be good and equal across the two so comparison easier. Ammo for testing would have to be kept to the same. I would have thought as much testing I have read about that someone would be able to check velocity at the target but it may not be possible. Environmental is going to have such effect at 200+. Its going to be a hard test. I see Landy has offered to help in testing on another forum. Thanks for the information. Its interesting to me and enjoy reading about it.
Todd
Todd
For those interested here are some results for 4- 13 twist barrels we chambered at 50 yards, they will all routinely shoot MOA or better at 200 yards.
www.snipershide.com
13 Twist Results
I have been ask several times about the accuracy of faster twist barrels on rimfire, specifically if they are less accurate at 50 yards compared to a 16 twist. These were done a month apart then sent in to see how the process repeated.
www.snipershide.com
I thought ‘fast’ was 1x9? Or am I hopelessly ‘slow’? Been a few years. My shooting buddy son was in the ‘transonic’ transition of high school to college. Might have some free time coming. We were just spinning up our 1x9 Lilja barrel 457s when our focus shifted.
We have done a few 9 twist, while they were not anything to write home about they were not bad either., easy under a 1/2" at 50 and roughly MOA and a half at 200 yards. Aguila is developing a 45 grain projectile for us to try and Will post back with results.
i had a Muller 1-9 twist that David and Crew installed on a curtis action i had , they slugged the barrel cut crowned installed test shot , and with a small sample lot of ammo it has shown to not be to picky so far and quite accurate , i need to get back to shooting and testing , thanks David Lott and crew , again
Recent test target from MCR on my CZ 457. The barrel is a 25” 13t MullerWorks. Pictured are 4 different lots of ammo at 50y. I call that not picky at all and losing nothing accuracy wise up close.
I wasn’t getting the results I wanted out of my Lilja 1x9 on the 457, so I did put a tuner on the end, and with out even tweaking it, it made a good improvement.
The 9T is pretty much dead in the water. No one has been able to make them outshoot a 16T at any range shooting 40 grain bullets around 1070 speed. MB did a lot work with the 9T and Vudoo actually offered it as an twist option for a very short period of time but that didn't last very long. Ask yourself why ?. The 13T has become very popular with long range shooters It can be made to shoot 40 grain +or-1070 speed ammo very accurately even at ranges of 100yds and less. Having said that I don't see the 13t replacing the 16t with shooters who limit their shooting to 100yds or less. The question is. At what range does the 13t start to consistently out shoot the 16t or does it ever.
Up here, the 14T seems to be the most common aftermarket upgrade twist rate desired and offered. Comparing is tough because aftermarket barrels are usually held to higher tolerances and chambers are often custom or proprietary, so shooting better that factory is not surprising. Also, the skill of national class shooters is what makes them hard to beat, not whether they are shooting a 16T or 13T. I’ve got a 12T that seems to give nothing away at 200+ to any other barrel I’ve run across. I don’t do 50/100 BR though.
None! 50yd unlimited benchrest shooters have been playing with twist rates for years. With 40 grain ammo around 1070 speed. 16 ,16.5t is it.
I have a new Brux 14T that is shooting lots of ammo very well. I just finished a lot test with it on Eley Match. I settled on 1 lot but had 3 that were real close on numbers. All photos of groups are of the same lot Shot on different mornings over this past weekend. Barrel was done by Rachel Precision on a Gen 1 Vudoo. It is 25' long and has a Gen 1 EC Tuner. The tuner adjustment has not been touched with any of these groups.
I dont know. It Rachel precision chamber. My lot tested Midas Plus for a Mullerworks 16T at 24" is 1085 and out of this 25" barrel it is 1076.
Interesting. My and several other’s experience with Eley Match velocities is the same as yours. It moves pretty quick, and not much temp sensitivity.
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