ATF now going after the Amish

[TexPatriot]

Talk about soft targets.

I wonder when they'll be going after the gangs of Chicago and L.A.? *crickets

Biden's ATF raids Amish dairy farmer, seizes firearm stash in potential 'rogue gun retailer' bust | Blaze Media

The case raises questions about when exactly someone must register as a federally licensed gun retailer

www.theblaze.com

ATF agents also seized at least one luxury horse carriage along with an assortment of hay rakes, hoes, shovels and wood working tools which could also be used as weapons. j/k

How do you say Lets Go Brandon! in Pennsylvania Dutch?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

 

[hlee]

This is a line in shifting sand that many gun 'collectors' straddle, cross, and run roughshod through. You can sell from your personal collection without a license. But, no one can tell you how many you can sell, over what time period. And, the 'trigger' for requiring a license is that the seller is motivated to make a profit. Well fuck me sideways, that's pretty much the sole reason to sell something from a collection.

 

[MadDuner]

There is no telling by what standards the ATF decides to go after somebody.
Thousands and thousands of illegal prohibited possessors out there, maybe in just the Chicago and LA areas alone - and they go after the Amish?

 

[Maggot]

""As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit," the ATF document states before once again adding the caveat that a license is not required for someone who engages in the "occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection.""

That leaves a lot of gray area.

One would hope for commo sense. I sold 3-4 this year, broke even on most so I reckon Im ok. I can see that if your selling 20 or more per month then (buy their regulations) you should have a license.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Probably matters what guns somone is buying and selling exactly. I mean are you buying and selling dozens of the same Glocks and AR's? Or variety of things and actual collectors guns?

 

[TexPatriot]

View attachment 7795543

Beautiful. Going in my personal collection.

 

[hlee]

Probably matters what guns somone is buying and selling exactly. I mean are you buying and selling dozens of the same Glocks and AR's? Or variety of things and actual collectors guns?

A collection consisting of only Glock 17s is still a collection...

 

[TexPatriot]

""As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit," the ATF document states before once again adding the caveat that a license is not required for someone who engages in the "occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection.""

That leaves a lot of gray area.

One would hope for commo sense. I sold 3-4 this year, broke even on most so I reckon Im ok. I can see that if your selling 20 or more per month then (buy their regulations) you should have a license.

Soooo, did they bust the Amish for not having a license to sell quilts, baked goods and handmade furniture at their flea markets?

 

[hlee]

What do we want? Common sense quilt laws. The unlicensed manufacture, distribution, sale, and possession of quilts cannot stand.

 

[myronman3]

if i bought a pistol 2 years ago for 500, and sold it for 800 this year, and i sold it because i wanted something else or just lost interest in that gun, it isnt an issue. same thing if i decided to sell all 3 of my guns.

BUT, if i out there running a shop where people come in and sell me guns, and i am turning around and selling those guns with the motivation of making money off those sales, problem.

same thing if a guy were to buy AR lowers, parts, and uppers. then assemble them and sell them for a mark up. and i would think in this scenario, there would be a LOT more laws that would be broken.

yup, there are grey areas. a few more i could mention too, but i am not going to. i know some guys dance all over those areas….i dont. it’s like when they were selling the oil filter adapters at a gunshow a few years back and there was a literal swarm around the guy selling them. someone i knew came up and asked if i had bought any. to which i explained that i dont want anything even CLOSE to the grey area, so no, no i didnt.

i generally am anti bureaucracy. but i’d have to know the full story behind this. it might be that the guy in question was way over the line. now we can debate if that “line” is even constitutional; and i’d probably agree with you if you said it wasnt. but that doesnt change the fact that as it stands now, it is behavior that can get you put in prison.

 

[Docsherm]

There is no telling by what standards the ATF decides to go after somebody.
Thousands and thousands of illegal prohibited possessors out there, maybe in just the Chicago and LA areas alone - and they go after the Amish?

Because they are white and don't shoot back...........

 

[Maser]

 

[Holliday]

Generally the ATF looks at two main factors

1. How long did you own the firearm
2. Did you make a profit on the sale

They also look at other things other than being a dealer, such as straw purchases.

The law is intentionally ambiguous.

That said, there are a lot of people who stray way too close and over the line, under the guise that they are just “collectors”.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Not enough info. Was it 20-40 that he no longer shoots (like me) or a pile (100+) of unfired remingtion 700s and Mossberg's of more recent manufacture? That said, shouldn't the ATF concentrate on something in Chicago or Philly?

 

[tomcatmv]

Haven't any of you ever watched Amish Mafia? Damn. get with the program
I bet Sirhr is on watch alert as this is not too far from his AO and if dear old Veer was still around he'd be reaching for his Sikh dagger.

 

[Sirshredalot]

Generally the ATF looks at two main factors

1. How long did you own the firearm
2. Did you make a profit on the sale

They also look at other things other than being a dealer, such as straw purchases.

The law is intentionally ambiguous.

That said, there are a lot of people who stray way too close and over the line, under the guise that they are just “collectors”.

How would they know?

 

[TexPatriot]

It is significantly easier to go after people who are not bothering anyone than it is to go after actual, violent criminals....


On paper they still have their "bust"numbers, but without to any actual effort on their end

They don't want to disarm that element. The violent criminals are the Left's useful idiots, to be called up and used as Kamala Harris and Obama's own army, to attack the America they hate.

They proved that in the 2020 burning of America.

 

[rlsmith1]

I mean the Amish don't even pay tax so not sure why the ATF would be upset about this. Maybe the Amish loophole has been the way around the NFA all along

 

[Maggot]

if i bought a pistol 2 years ago for 500, and sold it for 800 this year, and i sold it because i wanted something else or just lost interest in that gun, it isnt an issue. same thing if i decided to sell all 3 of my guns.

BUT, if i out there running a shop where people come in and sell me guns, and i am turning around and selling those guns with the motivation of making money off those sales, problem.

same thing if a guy were to buy AR lowers, parts, and uppers. then assemble them and sell them for a mark up. and i would think in this scenario, there would be a LOT more laws that would be broken.

yup, there are grey areas. a few more i could mention too, but i am not going to. i know some guys dance all over those areas….i dont. it’s like when they were selling the oil filter adapters at a gunshow a few years back and there was a literal swarm around the guy selling them. someone i knew came up and asked if i had bought any. to which i explained that i dont want anything even CLOSE to the grey area, so no, no i didnt.

i generally am anti bureaucracy. but i’d have to know the full story behind this. it might be that the guy in question was way over the line. now we can debate if that “line” is even constitutional; and i’d probably agree with you if you said it wasnt. but that doesnt change the fact that as it stands now, it is behavior that can get you put in prison.

The voice of reason. How dare you? Emotive outburst are much more laughable.

 

[Holliday]

How would they know?

For crying out loud. I not going to explain how stupid people leave tracks or how the ATF gathers evidence. OR how if they look crosseyed at someone they WILL turn feds evidence, against you. Nor will I explain how the atf needs neither to arm wrestling a person with limited means into a plea deal.

IF ……you have an IQ over 85 you already know these things. I swear.

People can either stick their low IQ heads in the sand OR they can choose to educate themselves and at least try to understand what the traps and pitfalls might be, so they can steer clear of them.

There is our “feels” about these laws and then there are the laws …..and then there is the ATF. Don’t make the mistake of conflating these.

I had a an acquaintance get on the wrong side of the situation with the ATF because of his “feels” and it ruined his and his family’s life. He lost his business, livelihood and took the plea deal…..No more guns for him.

 

[Maggot]

For crying out loud. I not going to explain how stupid people leave tracks or how the ATF gathers evidence. OR how if they look crosseyed at someone they WILL turn feds evidence, against you. Nor will I explain how the atf needs neither to arm wrestling a person with limited means into a plea deal.

IF ……you have an IQ over 85 you already know these things. I swear.

People can either stick their low IQ heads in the sand OR they can choose to educate themselves and at least try to understand what the traps and pitfalls might be, so they can steer clear of them.

There is our “feels” about these laws and then there are the laws …..and then there is the ATF. Don’t make the mistake of conflating these.

I had a an acquaintance get on the wrong side of the situation with the ATF because of his “feels” and it ruined his and his family’s life. He lost his business, livelihood and took the plea deal…..No more guns for him.

Exactly.

"I feel it violates my constitutional rights" and a big, stupid, attitude, dont mean shit when they kick in the door.

As John Wayne said, "Life's tough. Its even tougher when you're stupid."

Be smart.

 

[NoDopes]

For the Amish.. just sell them all at cost.

Did he lose any cows in the raid?

 

[Maser]

Did he lose any cows in the raid?

Actual cows or his many betrothed?

 

[Tempest 455]

Do the Amish have dogs?

 

[Maggot]

Do the Amish have dogs?

Not after the ATF guys show up.

 

[myronman3]

Do the Amish have dogs?

upside is, they’ll save a lot on dog food and vet bills.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Some of the confiscated guns...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You know what goes "Clip Clop Bang... Clip Clop Bang... Clip Clop Bang?"

Amish drive-by.

Sirhr

 

[Carlos Danger]

Fucking ATF should be ashamed of themselves. This is on par with pushing a blind kid down a set of stairs.

 

[norcalAF]

When I was a wee lad doing construction work, one of the Amish framers on the job site offered me 5 gallons of moonshine if I would go down to Walmart and buy him a single shot 12 guage. I still regret not taking him up on that offer....

 

[myronman3]

or fining a kid for running a lemonade stand? not the atf, but their cousin, johnny law.

 

[Alphatreedog]

A. This is Pennsylvania . We have the pre eminent 2A lawyer . I will contact him in case he's not already on this .
Lets go Brandon

 

[Rthur]

About goddamned time this tragedy was curtailed,Tobias and Gunter were out shooting up the inner cities.
Burning down gov buildings beating and killing the locals.
What solemn pride one must carry after facing down this menace.

R

 

[TexPatriot]

I wonder how long before the Feds declare the Amish as an armed, white supremacist organization that Trump refused to recognize?

 

[BAMAboy18]

Not that I know much about it, but I thought they were considered sovereign citizens?

 

[IdealJoe]

Just this week I had an ATF agent explain to me that as an FFL you cannot sell to the Amish that do not have photo ID's. Apparently it's against their religion for some and the ATF says too bad. No sales. I could imagine this bust had something to do with this rule and working around it.

 

[TexPatriot]

Just this week I had an ATF agent explain to me that as an FFL you cannot sell to the Amish that do not have photo ID's. Apparently it's against their religion for some and the ATF says too bad. No sales. I could imagine this bust had something to do with this rule and working around it.

Sounds like that ATF agent is making up his special ATF rules.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Just this week I had an ATF agent explain to me that as an FFL you cannot sell to the Amish that do not have photo ID's. Apparently it's against their religion for some and the ATF says too bad. No sales. I could imagine this bust had something to do with this rule and working around it.

Ask that A_utomatic T_ransmission F_luid agent to show you where in the 2a it says anything about having to have a photo ID to buy a gun.

 

[TexPatriot]

View attachment 7796526View attachment 7796527
Ask that A_utomatic T_ransmission F_luid agent to show you where in the 2a it says anything about having to have a photo ID to buy a gun.

It's in the Constitution you have to have a DL to buy a gun, just like my retired high school teacher aunt saying the 2nd A was only meant to protect recreational target practice with a .22.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

A friend who hunts an Amish farm in Ohio had a boring morning hunt and packed it in for lunch. When he got to the barn several Amish men showed him a big buck standing in the field. He said that he would never get close enough for a shot with his muzzleloader. No problem they said. Get on this mule and you can probably get right next to it. So he jumps on this mule that has no saddle just a bit and the reins and out into the field he goes. At about 75 yards he stopped the mule and takes the shot. Wholly shit!! He said. That mule could have won the Kentucky Derby. Gun went flying and he was holding on to the neck and being bounced for all he could hold on for. He slid down the side of the mule and ended up under it. He said that he was probably 75 yards from where he took the shot and had hoof tracks down his body. The Amish men came and picked him up and hauled him back to the barn laughing the whole way. They said that it was the funniest thing that they have seen and didn't think that he would actually do it. Two broken ribs and a couple cracked ribs and no deer. He said that those Amish bastards probably ate his deer!!

 

[TexPatriot]

A friend who hunts an Amish farm in Ohio had a boring morning hunt and packed it in for lunch. When he got to the barn several Amish men showed him a big buck standing in the field. He said that he would never get close enough for a shot with his muzzleloader. No problem they said. Get on this mule and you can probably get right next to it. So he jumps on this mule that has no saddle just a bit and the reins and out into the field he goes. At about 75 yards he stopped the mule and takes the shot. Wholly shit!! He said. That mule could have won the Kentucky Derby. Gun went flying and he was holding on to the neck and being bounced for all he could hold on for. He slid down the side of the mule and ended up under it. He said that he was probably 75 yards from where he took the shot and had hoof tracks down his body. The Amish men came and picked him up and hauled him back to the barn laughing the whole way. They said that it was the funniest thing that they have seen and didn't think that he would actually do it. Two broken ribs and a couple cracked ribs and no deer. He said that those Amish bastards probably ate his deer!!

Amish have built a reputation for being notorious poachers, as in, fuck your property fences and game laws. It has something to do with God's animals are there for their bounty and consumption, which overrides any state or federal laws. I'm surprised they didn't shoot the buck themselves or allowed any non-Amish to hunt their property to began with.

The trick of using a four-legged animal such as a mule or horse to get closer is a tactic that works as I've used it, however, I'm also surprised your friend took the shot offhand while still onboard instead of sliding off the far side and using the mule's back as a rest like Jeremiah Johnson did when he killed an elk.

 

[Lange Carabine]

^

 

[RUTGERS95]

Just this week I had an ATF agent explain to me that as an FFL you cannot sell to the Amish that do not have photo ID's. Apparently it's against their religion for some and the ATF says too bad. No sales. I could imagine this bust had something to do with this rule and working around it.

cannot be constitutional imho

 

[NoDopes]

#ItsAJoke

 

[IdealJoe]

#ItsAJoke

Not a joke. A transfer with a background check requires a photo ID. No photo, no transfer. The agent made it a point that this is a problem with some Amish and there are no exceptions for them.

 

[NoDopes]

I made a joke about ID and voting but deleted it because I didn't want anyone to think I was serious.
You don't need an id for personal sales. The whole argument on this raid.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I would not be surprised if the whole thing was sort of like the guy who was okay with getting the photo ID was buying a lot of guns and then regularly selling them to those who didn't believe in getting photo ID. A few times over the years, no problem, but when the records at the gun stores you are buying from get inspected and your name start showing up hundreds of times...

Or when somebody has an axe to grind about not getting a deal they wanted and decides to rat you out to the English to settle some scores...

Some ATF agent sees this and thinks it's an easy win that will look good on their file...