Badger scope base: loctite on bottom?

[colt.45]

Hey guys,

I'm installing a badger scope base on an R700 (Bergara) action. The instructions call for red loctite to be used, which I assumed was for the fasteners. But it says to coat the "bottom of the base" with loctite to "prevent water from wicking" between the surfaces. I'm just curious about this, I can't find videos of anyone installing these and I thought they just screwed on. Red is also the semi-permanent one and was wondering if any of y'all used blue instead, or whether people really do this.

And exactly what is considered "a light coat". Should I spread it around with my finger evenly or just dab a few drops on there?

(

PS. I don't know where the "Gunsmithing" thread went, so I posted here.)

 

[Stuey]

I dropped a few drops on the bottom of the base, and spread it out with my finger. This was blue loctite. No problems after 3 years.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Factory receivers usually aren't perfect and when the base is torqued down it can actually flex, so a lot of end users bed the scope base with an epoxy, which is one reason you probably don't see loctite getting used much. I've used red loctite in the past and I was still able to take the base off the receiver after, it's not a glue, a couple light taps and it breaks free.

 

[colt.45]

Factory receivers usually aren't perfect and when the base is torqued down it can actually flex, so a lot of end users bed the scope base with an epoxy, which is one reason you probably don't see loctite getting used much. I've used red loctite in the past and I was still able to take the base off the receiver after, it's not a glue, a couple light taps and it breaks free.

interesting. I thought red required heat to come off, maybe that's just with threads. This base is made of steel. I wonder if epoxy would be more permanent. Is loctite standard procedure in the military? I also have little notches in my base I assume for a recoil lug/dowel. None came with my base, and my receiver isn't cut for them anyways. I wonder how much that matters.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Yeah, it's not hard to remove a base that has had a light coat of red on the bottom of it. Steel or aluminum, epoxy permanently adheres to the bottom of the scope base but you put a release agent on the action so that it doesn't stick to the action itself.

I don't know what you're referring to with regards to notches and dowels, post a picture.

 

[ToddM]

It all depends on your level of "must not move" and what you are trying to accomplish. Red loctite is generally massive overkill for small screws , but in this case they really are just using it for a "sealant" to keep moisture from working under the rail. Red loctite doesn't harden enough to offer any resistance to flexing etc. like say bedding the rail with epoxy would, it's also not a "gap filler". 620 green is definitely a better option for this, but most people probably don't have it, and either probably works fine.

Some people use bedding compound on scope rails so the bottom of the rail is perfectly mated to the action, especially on older or lower budget factory options where the action is likely not perfectly round etc. However that still won't fix the possible issue of moisture, because if you use release agent and remove it, there's still some porosity there (granted less than if it had larger gaps without bedding, but it's not "sealed" to the action).

You have to evaluate your use case, I almost never ever swap out scope rails, I can't think of a single one I've wanted to remove/replace on a gun in 10+ years once installed. If you are the same and you really want it to be sealed and stay put, you can just use a bedding compound without release agent it will be locked in place and sealed. If you really need to get it off, you can still torch heat it and remove it.

 

[Holliday]

“Apply a light coat of loctite to the bottom of the base”

That is an insanely stupid recommendation.

 

[carbonbased]

Interesting that they specify two types of locktite (620 green and 271 red). I suspect, like others have said, the green is best under the base.

Here’s the manufacturer’s info on 620:

OP, is the receiver SS or carbon steel? Are you shooting a lot in a costal area?

If SS and not coastal, I’d probably use no locktite. If carbon steel anywhere or SS/coastal, I’d use the green locktite under the rail.

Using a waterproof epoxy like Marine-Tex without a release compound for the rail or receiver would be the crazy bomber solution, but I’d be a little leery of doing that. Marine-Tex would solve the corrosion and water freeze issue for the receiver top, however.

I’m no gunsmith, however, and have done neither epoxy or Loctite under the rail.

 

[Holliday]

Interesting that they specify two types of locktite (620 green and 271 red). I suspect, like others have said, the green is best under the base.

Here’s the manufacturer’s info on 620:
View attachment 8635413

OP, is the receiver SS or carbon steel? Are you shooting a lot in a costal area?

If SS and not coastal, I’d probably use no locktite. If carbon steel anywhere or SS/coastal, I’d use the green locktite under the rail.

Using a waterproof epoxy like Marine-Tex without a release compound for the rail or receiver would be the crazy bomber solution, but I’d be a little leery of doing that. Marine-Tex would solve the corrosion and water freeze issue for the receiver top, however.

I’m no gunsmith, however, and have done neither epoxy or Loctite under the rail.

I have bedded rails on Rem 700 with JB Weld epoxy but that is to fill their poor tolerances. I only bond to the rail.

 

[colt.45]

It all depends on your level of "must not move" and what you are trying to accomplish. Red loctite is generally massive overkill for small screws , but in this case they really are just using it for a "sealant" to keep moisture from working under the rail. Red loctite doesn't harden enough to offer any resistance to flexing etc. like say bedding the rail with epoxy would, it's also not a "gap filler". 620 green is definitely a better option for this, but most people probably don't have it, and either probably works fine.

Some people use bedding compound on scope rails so the bottom of the rail is perfectly mated to the action, especially on older or lower budget factory options where the action is likely not perfectly round etc. However that still won't fix the possible issue of moisture, because if you use release agent and remove it, there's still some porosity there (granted less than if it had larger gaps without bedding, but it's not "sealed" to the action).

You have to evaluate your use case, I almost never ever swap out scope rails, I can't think of a single one I've wanted to remove/replace on a gun in 10+ years once installed. If you are the same and you really want it to be sealed and stay put, you can just use a bedding compound without release agent it will be locked in place and sealed. If you really need to get it off, you can still torch heat it and remove it.

I have bedded rails on Rem 700 with JB Weld epoxy but that is to fill their poor tolerances. I only bond to the rail.

Interesting that they specify two types of locktite (620 green and 271 red). I suspect, like others have said, the green is best under the base.

Here’s the manufacturer’s info on 620:
View attachment 8635413

OP, is the receiver SS or carbon steel? Are you shooting a lot in a costal area?

If SS and not coastal, I’d probably use no locktite. If carbon steel anywhere or SS/coastal, I’d use the green locktite under the rail.

Using a waterproof epoxy like Marine-Tex without a release compound for the rail or receiver would be the crazy bomber solution, but I’d be a little leery of doing that. Marine-Tex would solve the corrosion and water freeze issue for the receiver top, however.

I’m no gunsmith, however, and have done neither epoxy or Loctite under the rail.

I'm unaware of the receiver material. Gun is a Bergara B-14 HMR, .308.

The rail is a Badger steel rail R700 short action. "machined from 4142 pre-hard (28-32Rc) Steel and Mil Spec Manganese Phosphate finished".

I do live in a coastal area, mere miles from the beach in Florida.

Would you say that bedding rails is more the standard or the exception in long range?

 

[carbonbased]

Would you say that bedding rails is more the standard or the exception in long range?

I don’t know.

 

[Holliday]

Would you say that bedding rails is more the standard or the exception in long range?

With rem 700 actions yes. With custom actions my understanding is it’s not needed because of tighter tolerances. I don’t know about Bergara.

Try screwing just the front of the rail and seeing if there is any movement at the rear when you push down. Then screw just the rear and push down on the front. See the below video at the 2:42 mark.

 

[spife7980]

Would you say that bedding rails is more the standard or the exception in long range?

Bedding? In a factory action, yes.
Slathering the whole thing in loctite? Not so much.

 

[ToddM]

It's not unheard of for higher end stuff as well to have rails be glued on. If I remember right both my AI AT and TRG had factory pic rails that were "glued" on. I say glued because I'm not sure if it was epoxy or some sort of gap filler/adhesive etc.

You can usually feel when you tighten the screws on the rail if it's not well mated to the action, if things are flexing/warping the screws will tighten up slowly. If everything is fit really well they will go from bottoming out hand tight to torqued with very little screw rotation. If I felt the fit was so bad there was obvious flex, I'd bed the scope rail to the action.

It's important also when we talk about things like "Loctite" 620 or 271 to remember that Loctite is a brand not a product. We often equate "loctite" to thread locker, but 271 and 620 are completely different things for different applications. 271 being a thread locker for keeping screws from vibrating out and 620 being a bearing retaining compound made for ensuring loose press fit bearings in worn assemblies don't come out. The fact 620 is designed as a gap filler that cures in an anaerobic state makes it a better fit for "sealing" a scope rail to an action than 271 IMO.