Night Vision Bandwith and NV tubes

[broey broheim]

Broskis-

I have a question. Hope somebody has an answer. I am wondering about the advantage of the increased bandwidth of photonis tubes vis a vis L3 and Elbit. I realize that above 900nm or so, the Gen 4 tubes have higher performance. What I am wondering is whether there is much of this above band light in the night atmosphere from sky glow or other to pick up and utilize, or whether It is just going to be better with 940 and up illuminators.

Hope this makes mucho sense.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Well it is my understanding that the industry has NOT moved to Gen 4 tubes. We still bees on Gen 3, albeit some hopped up Gen 3's.

So I can attest to this. I run some decent Harris Omni 7 tubes with FOM's around 2000 that are considered so so by todays "Super Tubes"

I also run some Zomie 950 nm IR Pass Filters on the end of some Evolva T20 LED IR 850's that bleed all over the place in the IR spectrum. Point being the Zomie 950 nm makes it such that only 950nm and above IR comes out of them.

My Gen 3 Omni 7 tubes have no problem at all seeing that light. In fact that Evolva T20 LED Illuminator with a 950 nm Pass Filter throws out well to approx 300 yards on a dark night. Now supposedly the Gen 3 Omni 7 Intensifier Tube is supposed to be falling off badly at seeing that light, but it sees it very well

I think the Photonis tubes will also see it very well

 

[TheHorta]

Who has Gen 4 tubes?

I didn’t think there was a published Gen 4 NV standard yet.

Am I misinformed?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Am I misinformed?

Says one of the most informed out there.

If Horta aint got em, they just vaporware.

 

[MurphT]

The 4G term that Photonis uses is mainly marketing hype. It's unfortunate that this industry is so wrapped up in the generation terms. At the core, Gen 3 means it uses a GaAS photocathode whereas others use a multialkali photocathode.

Photonis' multialkali photocathode that they call HyMa is what allows for the increased bandwidth over l3 and elbit.

Photonis talks about it in a bit more detail on page 5 here: https://www.photonis.com/system/fil..._Vision_and_Image_Intensifiers_market_EN2.pdf

(however take that whole document with a marketing grain of salt because they also claim in the same document that current filmless GaAS systems only have a life of "a few hundreds of hours")

 

[zinny]

Marketing hype aside, I am interested in the diffractive optical elements of 4G tubes and the optimized optics thats paired with them in the new photonis units. Specifically how this translates in terms of performance.

In a similar, yet not so similar analogy, PVS-31As without a doubt have optically superior glass compared to PVS-14s.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i love the tuesday gen4 tube threads. where can we get these tubes???? they sound totally rad brotatochip.

 

[broey broheim]

Thanks for the clarifications brochahonti. The song remains the same, as the good Zep says, so do 4g tubes, not gen 4 tubes, pick up any additional atmospheric photonage to intensify that is out of band, or is out of band light limited to illuminators? I read postage from C7Hawk somewhere over the rainbow about sky glow.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I too studied C7Hawks information regarding that subject and believe is was pretty accurate.

All that being said I believe that the 4G high spec Photonis tubes probably do a an excellent job all the way around. They will beat L3 filmless in high light environments for sure and I tend to think they are right there with them in most really dark environments. I am talking high spec units for both Photonis and L3.

But all of that is coming from a guy whom is quite happy using thin filmed FOM 2000 units. I do have a set of WP FOM 2500 units and do not find them that much noticeably different than my FOM 2000 or even lowly FOM 1700 Green units.

An Illuminator makes em all equal and yea I know all that "gotta stay covert no IR light disciple" blah blah blah advantage that L3 Super Tubes provide but there are ways around that (slap a lowly Breach) beside any of them for additional navigation for movement purposes to supplement NV in super dark environments etc etc.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

the folks worrying about FOM and performance numbers typically have little experience enough to know the differences, see the differences and be able to make use of the differences. numbers sound cool and i get WP is all the rave in larp'ing

 

[broey broheim]

I too studied C7Hawks information regarding that subject and believe is was pretty accurate.

All that being said I believe that the 4G high spec Photonis tubes probably do a an excellent job all the way around. They will beat L3 filmless in high light environments for sure and I tend to think they are right there with them in most really dark environments. I am talking high spec units for both Photonis and L3.

But all of that is coming from a guy whom is quite happy using thin filmed FOM 2000 units. I do have a set of WP FOM 2500 units and do not find them that much noticeably different than my FOM 2000 or even lowly FOM 1700 Green units.

An Illuminator makes em all equal and yea I know all that "gotta stay covert no IR light disciple" blah blah blah advantage that L3 Super Tubes provide but there are ways around that (slap a lowly Breach) beside any of them for additional navigation for movement purposes to supplement NV in super dark environments etc etc.

Thank you brother man.

the folks worrying about FOM and performance numbers typically have little experience enough to know the differences, see the differences and be able to make use of the differences. numbers sound cool and i get WP is all the rave in larp'ing

Have I stepped into a hornets nest, bro? Seems like all y'all have grudgeskis pointing in every which way direction.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@broey broheim I think Killswitch was just adding to some truisms about the current situation. NV is complicated and there are some people who really hype some things up surrounding numbers and WP when it truly is not as big of a bang as it is to a person's wallet.

Killswitch is a good guy with lots of experience and I did not take his post as any kind of slight. He was just adding in some straight talk.

 

[stefan73]

And some people know a thing or two, because they've seen a thing or two.


Or stayed at a Holiday Inn express

Reference Kills Larping

 

[WhereNow&How]

And some people know a thing or two, because they've seen a thing or two.


Or stayed at a Holiday Inn express

Reference Kills Larping

@stefan73 You forgot to add reading and comprehending everything on the Hide about NV & Thermal is another helpful prerequisite to knowing a thing or two.

Hecque, Im slow, but learned a long time ago to read something 2 or 3 times or more till I understand it.

The Hide is where you find some excellent experienced and knowledgeable people. I read and used for many years before I joined so I did not walk in as a complete newby.

 

[stefan73]

@stefan73 You forgot to add reading and comprehending everything on the Hide about NV & Thermal is another helpful prerequisite to knowing a thing or two.

Hecque, Im slow, but learned a long time ago to read something 2 or 3 times or more till I understand it.

The Hide is where you find some excellent experienced and knowledgeable people. I read and used for many years before I joined so I did not walk in as a complete newby.

Very true!

I enjoy it when the uber smart engineers that build these systems take the time to teach us about athermalization and the different impacts between Germanium and Chalcogenide. Then some of the key differences in Germanium and Chalcogenide @Max_R

The more I learn, the more I learn that I don't know.

 

[TheHorta]

I take FOM between tube manufacturers with a very LARGE grain of salt.

I have a 2829 FOM Elbit WP tube in one PVS-14 and a ~2200 FOM L3 WP in another, and the L3 crushes the Elbit.

I’ll probably get a set of Photonis factory 4G Binos from Elite in a month or two just to compare them directly with one of my 31A sets and put the argumentum ad nauseum to rest with a personal comparison.

To my understanding, the 2376 31A’s should handily beat the Photonis equivalent in my kind of use (dark countryside with limited artificial lighting). The Photonis unit should theoretically perform better in urban, mixed lighting environments, and when using supplemental illumination because Photonis highlight resolution crushes L3 highlight resolution.

It’s all theory until someone with zero allegiance or axe to grind ponies up $25K and gives us an honest comparison.

I do like the weight of the Photonis binos. That’s an impressive feat.

 

[MK20]

Horta, I have a set of those binos on order and my friend has an issued set of PVS-31s so I can do a comparison eventually, but our schedules have to line up.

 

[TheHorta]

Horta, I have a set of those binos on order and my friend has an issued set of PVS-31s so I can do a comparison eventually, but our schedules have to line up.

You in MN?

Any closet axes to grind? Has L3 ever touched you in a bad place?

I should add... I would absolutely LOVE for Photonis to clearly emerge as a legit competitor and contender. I think we ALL would like to see that. It would be SPECTACULAR for the NV world if we have a genuine no-compromise alternative to L3Harris.

I do not *think* Photonis is there... yet. It seems like L3 is the reigning champ and Gold Medal winner, and everyone else is competing for Silver.

I’d love to be wrong.

 

[MK20]

Nope, in ID. I have used issued L3 31's extensively in a previous job so I should be able to give a fairly honest comparison as soon as I get these Photonis things in hand, but I won't have access to the L3 for a few months.

 

[MK20]

When the Photonis came in 2K cheaper for me I figured I would give it a try and if I found that it was horrible in really dark environments I will pass them on to someone who lives in or around a city. The overwhelming consensus is that they are way better in urban settings so if I lived in a city or needed a bug out rig I would probably go with the photonis as I can tell you that the L3 certainly blooms badly in urban settings. So much so that we often ran NODs up in urban environments.

 

[MurphT]

I recently sold a set of photonis echo tubes that I had and bought a set of omni 7 PVS-15s, and I will say that I was not prepared for how poor the gen 3 tubes would perform with higher light environments.

I live just outside of a major city and most often use my nvg to ride my mountain bike at night. I typically ride through a neighborhood that is intermittently lit with a few street lights and porch lights to get to the woods that I ride in. I do believe that the Gen 3 tubes perform marginally better in the darkest of the dark, but for my uses I think the photonis performed a bit better especially for the price and availability. I do like the glass on the 15's though.

 

[MK20]

Yeah. The problem with US tubes and any significant light is that it washes out a large part of your vision and looks like the equivalent of radar jamming.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Any closet axes to grind? Has L3 ever touched you in a bad place?

I only discuss those things with my Psychologist because she is as twisted as me.

 

[stefan73]

Do we have to pay double to get L3 to touch us in a bad place?

Asking for a friend

 

[The King]

Has L3 ever touched you in a bad place?

They can’t touch me in a bad place. Every time they try they just start rubbing the back of @TheHorta s hand.