Barrel blanks

[unclemoak]

I started dabbling in making barrels, mainly for myself and undoubtedly the first question I always get asked is what blank is you use?

Why is this? Is there really a big difference in accuracy between manufacturers?


This is a five shot group out of a very budget friendly blank using factory ammo at 100 yds.

 

[oldrifleman]

I think every company can put out decent barrels, the difference is can you count on them to be up to snuff on a regular basis. Also it is much easier to be good at 100 yrds than 1000 yrds than many here shoot on a regular basis. I am also less fussy about barrels for my ARs than I am my Bolt rifles. My precision rifles I want a cut rifled barrel, on a blaster I am fine with a button rifled barrel.

 

[bfoosh006]

I'm comfortable there is a difference in barrel blanks.... but , IMHO, and as you pic shows..

Attention to the additional details matters a lot.

 

[oldrifleman]

I'm comfortable there is a difference in barrel blanks.... but , IMHO, and as you pic shows..

Attention to the additional details matters a lot.

Agreed, Take a top quality blank and give it to Henry the drunk machinist next door and you will have great chance of getting a piece of junk. Take a lower tier blank and give it to a great smith and the chances of getting a piece of junk decrease significantly as they will preview the blank and determine how best to work with it (or bail on it if the blank is not fit). Give a great blank from a top tier maker to one of the talented smiths here on the hide and they will turn it into a tack driving beast.

 

[papershredder]

The person machining the blank and the person shooting the rifle are what usually "makes or breaks" the barrel. Like illustrated in the posts above, the good machinist has happy contest winning customers, and Choppy Mcgee has to avoid the internet due to all his unhappy customers. The real differences in the blanks come down to material selection and source. Blanks made with cheaper materials might not have as much of a round count before needing replaced compared to the blanks made by the higher end barrel manufacturers. The barrel maker using the cheap material might have a higher internal QC rejection rate not seen by us, but due to lower material costs and manufacturing methods used, it doesn't effect the end price for the consumer. So quantity gets placed slightly above quality while still maintaining the QC standards that matter to keep prices down. As long as QC standards are kept by the barrel maker, the average shooter won't see or shoot the difference.

 

[JR1200W3]

I started dabbling in making barrels, mainly for myself and undoubtedly the first question I always get asked is what blank is you use?

Why is this? Is there really a big difference in accuracy between manufacturers?


This is a five shot group out of a very budget friendly blank using factory ammo at 100 yds.
View attachment 8535003

You're probably better off talking to Mark Chanlyn, Frank Green, and Ken from K&P than asking the peanut gallery at SH. As a consumer, I occasionally use McGowen and Shilen for better priced blanks for experiments and I have been pleasantly surprised every time. When I want a barrel for a project that needs to be accurate and I'm going to invest a lot of money in via machining I'm going to buy a cut rifled barrel from Bartlein, Mullerworks, or K&P. I think everyone can put out an accurate barrel and everyone can put out a difficult, troublesome barrel. But it's the likelihood of getting a good barrel that makes the difference. I think when consumers buy barrels some of them know they're playing the lottery. They're going to pay a little extra to hedge their bets on ensuring they're not the guinea pig. In this industry it's easy to describe vignettes of talented machinists that venture into expanding their business and suffer a down turn in quality as they find out that being a doer vs a manager are two different things. I can make a mean steak, but I can't run a steakhouse.

All that said, I see a lot of new shooters post on here, "I'm doing my first custom build and want the best barrel. Who makes the best?". These guys are still working on their marksmanship and shoot factory ammo. They'll never test the limits of that high dollar cut rifles barrel. But they think they're laying down real money finally and want "the best" they can afford. So there's that mindset that can be prevalent.

 

[Triple D]

I started dabbling in making barrels, mainly for myself and undoubtedly the first question I always get asked is what blank is you use?

Why is this? Is there really a big difference in accuracy between manufacturers?


This is a five shot group out of a very budget friendly blank using factory ammo at 100 yds.
View attachment 8535003

Shoot multiple groups and see what the average looks like, vs just 1 group. The other pics you’ve posted have included a target that was good, but also had an errant round.

Most have touched on the big items, but I’ve found with some of the cheaper barrels they were more prone to walk as they heated up.

 

[RTH1800]

As said above, it’s not so much about results as CONSISTENT results.
Yet some mid grade barrels have been consistently good for me. Douglas and Hart come to mind. Lilia always sucks in my experience with 3 rimfire barrels.
Bartlein and Proof are uniformly superb.

 

[rabeck27]

I chamber a lot of barrels for PRS rifles. The only two brands that I’ve used that I’ve not had at least one dud barrel are bartlein and krieger. I’ve had great barrels from all brands but I’ve had at least one dud from several others. I’ve done more bartleins than anything and every single one has shot well under 1/2” 5-shot groups. I’m to the point that i will not recommend any other blank manufacturer because it’s not worth the time for me or my customer to save $100 on a blank and potentially get a gun that shoots mediocre.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The person machining the blank and the person shooting the rifle are what usually "makes or breaks" the barrel. Like illustrated in the posts above, the good machinist has happy contest winning customers, and Choppy Mcgee has to avoid the internet due to all his unhappy customers. The real differences in the blanks come down to material selection and source. Blanks made with cheaper materials might not have as much of a round count before needing replaced compared to the blanks made by the higher end barrel manufacturers. The barrel maker using the cheap material might have a higher internal QC rejection rate not seen by us, but due to lower material costs and manufacturing methods used, it doesn't effect the end price for the consumer. So quantity gets placed slightly above quality while still maintaining the QC standards that matter to keep prices down. As long as QC standards are kept by the barrel maker, the average shooter won't see or shoot the difference.

This is wrong and pure ignorance.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Barrels are like a box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get, guys that shoot tiny groups buy multiple
barrels that are chambered by the same smith. They screw one on and test it, if it dont shoot to their satisfaction
they do not waste time playing with it. It gets replaced with a new barrel.

 

[oldrifleman]

Barrels are like a box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get, guys that shoot tiny groups buy multiple
barrels that are chambered by the same smith. They screw one on and test it, if it dont shoot to their satisfaction
they do not waste time playing with it. It gets replaced with a new barrel.

Yep I used to play this game, I was a poor at the time and could only afford 3-4 at a time others got a yearly top of 12-15 hoping they could use 8-10. Barrels have gotten better but there are still good and bad from some makers. Got out of the game in the 90s so not up on their current preferences.

 

[papershredder]

This is wrong and pure ignorance.

Care to enlighten us?

 

[oldrifleman]

Care to enlighten us?

I believe that he is saying that there are are great smith’s who can get the most out of a blank, but a great smith cannot make a crap blank into a hummer. He can spot the flaws and eliminate it and move to another blank and ship a decent finished product to the shooter. If the place does not carry stocks of barrels or the customer ships him a crap blank then difficult conversations occur. A great smith often has a working relationship with barrel makers and can engineer a swap or the barrels goes back to the customer as the good ones won’t put their name on crap.
Now if you buy a ready made barrel, it is another story. You have to trust the maker ( I trust craddock and WOA and maybe one other) to weed out the crap. High volume machine shops don’t have the time or maybe the skill’s ( or in some cases the desire) to check out blank quality hen their schedule says run 5-10 an hour on their mill. They grab one off the cart throw it in the cnc and let it run.
But crap blanks yield crap barrels and in reality no one can make them into a hummer.

 

[JR1200W3]

I don't think Dave Wilson is asking a question at all. I think it's just rhetorical. He posted the same thing on a FB page and like this thread didn't engage. Just a humble brag. I think he experimented with something and wanted to show it off; he didn't actually want anyone's opinion. Just wanted to show his wallet group.

 

[papershredder]

I believe that he is saying that there are are great smith’s who can get the most out of a blank, but a great smith cannot make a crap blank into a hummer. He can spot the flaws and eliminate it and move to another blank and ship a decent finished product to the shooter. If the place does not carry stocks of barrels or the customer ships him a crap blank then difficult conversations occur. A great smith often has a working relationship with barrel makers and can engineer a swap or the barrels goes back to the customer as the good ones won’t put their name on crap.
Now if you buy a ready made barrel, it is another story. You have to trust the maker ( I trust craddock and WOA and maybe one other) to weed out the crap. High volume machine shops don’t have the time or maybe the skill’s ( or in some cases the desire) to check out blank quality hen their schedule says run 5-10 an hour on their mill. They grab one off the cart throw it in the cnc and let it run.
But crap blanks yield crap barrels and in reality no one can make them into a hummer.

Mr. Wislon didn't mention bad blanks in the OP, so I intentionally left out the prospect of bad blanks being sent to the smith in my post and focused more on the manufacturing side of the issue where costs have to be cut somewhere in order for the "lower end" blank makers to discount their prices. Be it purchasing the cheapest bar stock, running their machinery faster, not spending the extra effort or $$$$ for material analysis and certifications, minimizing or skipping the lapping process, etc... And with D. Wilson posting a tight group pic above kind of drives home my point about if QC standards are being held by the blank maker, then there probably won't be an issue for most people assuming the smith is doing his part. But, higher volume production = higher chance of bad products leaving the door which has to be taken into consideration by the end customer. I 100% agree that in order for a smith to make a good barrel, then the blank has to be equally well made. So to answer @unclemoak 's original post, who makes the blanks only matters so we, the customers, can get a general consensus on who's making good budget blanks and who's making crap. From there we can then sort out who the quality smiths are and who aren't to turn those blanks into barrels.

 

[oldrifleman]

Mr. Wislon didn't mention bad blanks in the OP, so I intentionally left out the prospect of bad blanks being sent to the smith in my post and focused more on the manufacturing side of the issue where costs have to be cut somewhere in order for the "lower end" blank makers to discount their prices. Be it purchasing the cheapest bar stock, running their machinery faster, not spending the extra effort or $$$$ for material analysis and certifications, minimizing or skipping the lapping process, etc... And with D. Wilson posting a tight group pic above kind of drives home my point about if QC standards are being held by the blank maker, then there probably won't be an issue for most people assuming the smith is doing his part. But, higher volume production = higher chance of bad products leaving the door which has to be taken into consideration by the end customer. I 100% agree that in order for a smith to make a good barrel, then the blank has to be equally well made. So to answer @unclemoak 's original post, who makes the blanks only matters so we, the customers, can get a general consensus on who's making good budget blanks and who's making crap. From there we can then sort out who the quality smiths are and who aren't to turn those blanks into barrels.

Agree, and I should say D Wilson is another I trust.

 

[unclemoak]

I don't think Dave Wilson is asking a question at all. I think it's just rhetorical. He posted the same thing on a FB page and like this thread didn't engage. Just a humble brag. I think he experimented with something and wanted to show it off; he didn't actually want anyone's opinion. Just wanted to show his wallet group.

No, I did actually want people’s feedback.

I personally don’t care about who made a blank so long as it shoots, so I’m genuinely interested to understand the perception that big name banks and $$$ equates to in people’s minds.

It doesn’t make sense to me that someone would pay 4x the price for something that has no tangible benefits beyond saying you used XXXX brand of blank.

 

[oldrifleman]

I was 4 paragraphs into a novel about consistency and realized that you will never change your mind. Fact is that I won’t buy a barrel any more without knowing where the blank came from. That knowledge is the only way to understand your odds of getting a decent shooter. You say you only care that it shoots, without knowing who made the blank and who chambered it, go play slots, your odds are better!

 

[Jsp556]

I wonder how many out of 1000 would shoot like that?

How does it group at distance? Any 600 yard groups?

ETA: that’s not a shot at D.Wilson. The work he’s done for me has been top notch.

 

[hlee]

I recently won a draw for a hunting permit. I won. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t apply. I mean, I won…

Some won’t understand how this is applicable…

 

[oldrifleman]

I recently won a draw for a hunting permit. I won. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t apply. I mean, I won…

Some won’t understand how this is applicable…

Slot machines I say, the future is slot machines.

 

[JR1200W3]

No, I did actually want people’s feedback.

I personally don’t care about who made a blank so long as it shoots, so I’m genuinely interested to understand the perception that big name banks and $$$ equates to in people’s minds.

It doesn’t make sense to me that someone would pay 4x the price for something that has no tangible benefits beyond saying you used XXXX brand of blank.

Well let us know how the barrel shoots over it's lifetime. For competition shooters, your paying about $1000 in bullets during the life of the barrel. About $422 in powder and about $200 in primers. The cost to chamber and thread is a constant whether your buying a cheaper or more expensive blank. For me, it's $450 - 475. So over $2000 not counting the cost of the blank. The last 5 blanks I've bought cost:

$500 for a Mullerworks rimfire barrel
$425 for a Mullerworks for a LFAR in 6.5CM
$230(?) for a Shilen unturned blank in .224 1:7.5" ratchet for a 22GT competition barrel
$250 McGowen blank I had Fritz chamber in 22GT that I'm currently shooting in matches

The $200 cost difference in blanks is pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. And the barrel doesn't just need to shoot well out of the gate. It has to be consistent over the lifespan. I've had two barrels that shot great for 6-800rds and then just started to suck. I couldn't wait for one of them to die. The other one I just took off and threw away.

I'll let you know how the $250 McGowen goes. Right now it's hammering with about 500rds on it.

 

[Leicafan1990]

No, I did actually want people’s feedback.

I personally don’t care about who made a blank so long as it shoots, so I’m genuinely interested to understand the perception that big name banks and $$$ equates to in people’s minds.

It doesn’t make sense to me that someone would pay 4x the price for something that has no tangible benefits beyond saying you used XXXX brand of blank.

Many of us are willing to pay a premium to get a barrel that is extremely likely to be a hammer and you get that with premium cut rifled barrels from companies like Bartlein and Krieger. And the more you pay, the more demanding you are going to be about who made the blank. I'm not spending over $500 on a barrel with an unknown blank.

You need to meet expectations for the price range. If you're selling $200-$300 barrels, it's totally fine in my opinion to not disclose the blank source. At that price range, the knowledgeable guys know that the blanks are coming from a high-volume button rifling outfit. You might get a laser barrel but you also might get a Friday afternoon dud that struggles to shoot under 1moa even with hand loads. Sure, probably 90% of those high volume button blanks will turn into great barrels but the really OCD guys worry about being in that 10% that end up with a sub-par barrel. And they will gladly pay more than double for the peace of mind that comes with premium cut rifled barrels.

We are a tiny minority though. Most guys don't even think about who makes the blank or are completely unaware of the fact that the blank is often made by a different company. Most of the 2A community would be appalled at the thought of spending $700 on an AR barrel.

 

[oldrifleman]

We are a tiny minority though. Most guys don't even think about who makes the blank or are completely unaware of the fact that the blank is often made by a different company. Most of the 2A community would be appalled at the thought of spending $700 on an AR barrel.

Then they would have a conniption if they heard about the heavy Bartlein cerocoated spiral fluted AR barrel that Craddock spun up for me

 

[rabeck27]

Guys that compete in long range shooting sports(PRS or F class or Benchrest, etc.) can literally ruin a season messing with a shit barrel. If you shoot 150 rounds “tuning” your load to get a barrel to shoot that you saved $200 on the blank, you just ate up your savings in components. That’s not even factoring in your time. You’re better off throwing it in the trash and starting over. Or just go with a bartlein or krieger and reputable smith and you have a 99% chance it’s gonna shoot. So, the answer to the OP’s question also depends on intended use of the barrel.

 

[Ronin22]

No, I did actually want people’s feedback.

I personally don’t care about who made a blank so long as it shoots, so I’m genuinely interested to understand the perception that big name banks and $$$ equates to in people’s minds.

It doesn’t make sense to me that someone would pay 4x the price for something that has no tangible benefits beyond saying you used XXXX brand of blank.

Just keep doing what you are doing. I think you already know the truth of things. If you buy a $20 blank and it shoots like a motherfucker, so be it. You can buy a very expensive blank and it not shoot like a motherfucker. You have a better bet that the hand lapped premium barrel will shoot better on average, but the shit sticks can shit a good stick every once in a while.