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Barrel rifling

BoltGunner054

Private
Minuteman
Jul 17, 2023
19
13
Pennsylvania
Ordered a barrel and was asked 5 or 6 groove rifling. Going to sound stupid here but what is everyone shooting? Does it make that much of a difference? I’m far from a professional. Initial research claims bullet/jacket deformation with 6 groove. I watched the bartlein video and he says 5. Everything seems conflicting so looking for info from folks who use and know this stuff. Barrel is a 26” heavy varmint 1-8 twist chambered in 6.5 creedmoor. Thanks in advance.
 
It doesn’t matter. I used to shoot 4 groove and now 5 groove. I am the weakest link regardless of groove. Your twist matters far more as it needs to match the bullet weight to stabilize the spin. That said, anything Bryan Litz says is gospel.
 
It doesn’t matter. I used to shoot 4 groove and now 5 groove. I am the weakest link regardless of groove. Your twist matters far more as it needs to match the bullet weight to stabilize the spin. That said, anything Bryan Litz says is gospel.

I’ve shot dozens of 4-6 grooves and don’t see any difference in barrel performance or life. I find a good barrel is a good barrel.
 
Frank has said in a couple of threads that 5 groove barrels seem to disturb bullet jackets less.

We've worked with a couple of barrel MFG's and found the same trend with both 5R and 5-groove traditional rifling.

At the end of the day 4-groove seems to be a traditional carryover from forever ago. Most everything that was made around the time countries adopted smokeless powder was a 4-groove barrel. There are some exceptions in the mid/late 1800's black powder era stuff, but the Krag, Mausers, M1903, Swiss straight pulls (after the 1889 BP rifle), Mosin Nagants, etc.. Pretty much every popular rifle except the Lee Enfield (5G, LH) was 4 groove. There were some war-time simplifications in WWII to make 2-groove barrels but those are exceptions to the rule.

I don't know where 6-groove made it's introduction but now it's often used in SAAMI cartridge introductions-- and as far as I can tell that's purely because the groundwork has already been done and it's an easy cut/paste option.

All of that being said, it's usually not make or break any way. However, when given the choice (unless it costs dramatically more for some obscene reason) I opt for 5 groove-- Ideally 5R. 4G and 6G seem to have a higher propensity to cause bullet failures if you're pushing the limits but tight spots, burrs, and other manufacturing defects can cause the same thing regardless of rifling style. 4G with sharp corners also seems to do a bit better on the whole with short bearing surface match/varmint bullets (think short range BR)... But again for what we're doing I haven't ever seen any compelling evidence that it's meaningfully different between 4G, 5G, 5R, or 6G. Barrel-to-barrel variation still seems to trump rifling type/profile.
 
We've worked with a couple of barrel MFG's and found the same trend with both 5R and 5-groove traditional rifling.

At the end of the day 4-groove seems to be a traditional carryover from forever ago. Most everything that was made around the time countries adopted smokeless powder was a 4-groove barrel. There are some exceptions in the mid/late 1800's black powder era stuff, but the Krag, Mausers, M1903, Swiss straight pulls (after the 1889 BP rifle), Mosin Nagants, etc.. Pretty much every popular rifle except the Lee Enfield (5G, LH) was 4 groove. There were some war-time simplifications in WWII to make 2-groove barrels but those are exceptions to the rule.

I don't know where 6-groove made it's introduction but now it's often used in SAAMI cartridge introductions-- and as far as I can tell that's purely because the groundwork has already been done and it's an easy cut/paste option.

All of that being said, it's usually not make or break any way. However, when given the choice (unless it costs dramatically more for some obscene reason) I opt for 5 groove-- Ideally 5R. 4G and 6G seem to have a higher propensity to cause bullet failures if you're pushing the limits but tight spots, burrs, and other manufacturing defects can cause the same thing regardless of rifling style. 4G with sharp corners also seems to do a bit better on the whole with short bearing surface match/varmint bullets (think short range BR)... But again for what we're doing I haven't ever seen any compelling evidence that it's meaningfully different between 4G, 5G, 5R, or 6G. Barrel-to-barrel variation still seems to trump rifling type/profile.
Yeah all of this would become more pronounced if you are pushing velocities into the “fun”zone ( ex: 6 cm above 3200🤣).
 
It doesn’t matter. I used to shoot 4 groove and now 5 groove. I am the weakest link regardless of groove. Your twist matters far more as it needs to match the bullet weight to stabilize the spin. That said, anything Bryan Litz says is gospel.
BS it doesn't matter! Years ago... I did always say that the number of grooves didn't mean squat in terms of barrel life or accuracy.

For the most part!

I did always say if shooting short jacket 6mm bullets like bullets 85gr or less you want conventional rifling. 4 groove, 5 groove or 6 groove etc...especially with 6PPC type bench guns. They don't like the 5R rifling. Best you can typically get out of them is upper .2xx's to low .3xx's. The short range bench guys if your shooting in the upper .2xx's your not going to be competitive but the longer 6mm bullets... 5R all the way.

Now fast forward to several years ago and especially Aug. 2022. Testing was done and unknown to me we made all the test barrels. 7 of them had saami spec. 6 groove rifling and 5 had our 5R rifling. High pressure and high velocity.... the 5r rifling helped maintain consistent bc numbers on the bullets. The 6 groove rifling... was putting burrs on the side of the jacket of the bullets. the burr was as big as a 1/32" and effected the bc of the bullet by as much as 5%. The further down range the greater this 5% even though it doesn't sound like much will effect accuracy.

About 7 years ago Hornady and the Army ran into the same thing testing 5R and 4 groove barrels but didn't know why. That testing was done at 1k and 1200 yards.

Seeing the pictures of 320 bullets fired thru the 6 groove and 5R barrels now confirmed what Hornady and Army seen.
 
I think last time this came up @AccuSol-ERN said that even-number groove barrels were easier to chamber, something about the pilot? Odd-number barrels require paying more attention or something.
 
I have been going to 5 R the last several yrs. I get a bit higher velocity, and no bullet blow up in mid flight.
Even the 58 gr Vmax shoots good groups in the 6 Dasher at 4100 fps, with 7.5 twist barrel purchased for the 105 to 115 match bullets. The 110 SMK at 3085 is an excellent LR speed load, or drop down to 2975 to 3020 area with Berger 108s for super accuracy.
Two newer 308s are 9 and 8 twist 5 R for long bullets, the 8 twist is on a long action, for 200gr SMK 2860 fps to 230 gr Atips bullets, at 2620 fps, or 225 ELDM at 2675 fps.
The 5 R barrels are my preferred barrel rifling, for most of the shooting I do, if given a choice.
 
Not even that fast.... I'll say starting at 3k.

Pressure though is also an issue even if you're not hitting that higher velocity.
I’m right around 2650-2700 currently. With the new barrel 4” longer I expect to be in the previous said range. Currently I notice no pressure signs at all, everything seems great. So when 5R rifling isn’t an option you would recommend 5 over 6 from the sounds of it. Also is there any possibility you could link some literature to the tests that you had mentioned? It would be really interesting to read them. Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.
 
I would be interested to know if it is the shape of the 5R rifling completely.
If 4 groove or 6 groove was made with the same shape lands, would it also perform the same.

Not even the "same" shape. Just more rounded off edges.

Since "R" is taken, could probably make millions patenting 4T and 6T rifling... T stands for "Tapered" lol
 
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the burr was as big as a 1/32" and effected the bc of the bullet by as much as 5%. The further down range the greater this 5% even though it doesn't sound like much will effect accuracy.
I'm surprised it's not several times that, a burr that size with a boolit spinning maybe 250,000 rpm I'd have thought it would have had more impact.
 
I think last time this came up @AccuSol-ERN said that even-number groove barrels were easier to chamber, something about the pilot? Odd-number barrels require paying more attention or something.
That is my observation from my machining setup. That is why I prefer quality 4 groove blanks. Others with different setups may have a different experience. A lot of builders just ream to final headspace and don't even check......at best they might scope it and look for obvious misalignment. It takes time and effort to clean and run an indicator back in to check critical chamber areas. Some builders, knowing the customer might use a borescope nowadays are spec'ing reamers with oversized freebore diameters (most SAAMI and match reamers are +.0005" bullet diameter) to "hide" visual signs of misalignment.......leaving rifling lands through the freebore while 180 degrees opposite is cut clean.

Does this effect accuracy?........maybe maybe not.......Can rifles still meet accuracy guarantee with misalignment?.....maybe maybe not. I know that misaligned chambers/freebores are hell on bullet jackets (especially Hornady) and can lead to mid air puffs.

The best we can do is get as close as possible while knowing there is tolerance stacking (although small) can add up. I am currently at my work bench trying to deal with a problem.......old Hornady 140ELDM mic out at .2641 and new factory ammo mic out at .2646-.2647.......customer experiences sticky close/extraction on live ammo.......SAAMI reamer specs .2645 and mics .2646ish. Going to set it back up in the lathe and run my custom throater .2652 in and make a skim cut without bumping length.

Meanwhile old Hornady ammo and other ammo using non-Hornady bullets work just fine, Bergers, Sierra, and old Hornady mic out between .2640-.2643........Gotta love Hornady's consistency!!!

Ern
 
I’m right around 2650-2700 currently. With the new barrel 4” longer I expect to be in the previous said range. Currently I notice no pressure signs at all, everything seems great. So when 5R rifling isn’t an option you would recommend 5 over 6 from the sounds of it. Also is there any possibility you could link some literature to the tests that you had mentioned? It would be really interesting to read them. Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.
I'd take a conventional 5 groove over a 4 or 6.

I don't know if Hornady has any data or not... (did they record it). They where doing doppler radar testing that day. Army did the same thing but was testing like 26 different 6.5mm bullets out to 1200 yards. It's been about 7 years so I don't even know who to ask if they saved any of the data. It was relayed over the phone to me.

The testing done two years ago... I've seen the data on the lap top. The test was run by a bullet maker for a gun manufacturer. I know who is in charge of the data at the manuf. and I've put in 3 requests to have it released to me but no response. The same manufacturer right now is testing different groove configurations, as well as different bore and groove sizes. We made them like 25 different test barrels. In a different caliber we made them some 338 barrels with really wide grooves with 4 groove rifling. It was almost at the limit of our existing tooling.
 
I'm surprised it's not several times that, a burr that size with a boolit spinning maybe 250,000 rpm I'd have thought it would have had more impact.
Bullets where spinning at 308k and change...

The only thing not factored in... and would need more extensive testing is as the barrel wears the throat is going to get rougher and in turn beat the bullet up even more.

It would be interesting to see what happens to the bullets when the barrels are new... then at 2k rounds and then at 4k rounds. That's a lot of shooting and a lot of $$$$$.
 
I'd take a conventional 5 groove over a 4 or 6.

I don't know if Hornady has any data or not... (did they record it). They where doing doppler radar testing that day. Army did the same thing but was testing like 26 different 6.5mm bullets out to 1200 yards. It's been about 7 years so I don't even know who to ask if they saved any of the data. It was relayed over the phone to me.

The testing done two years ago... I've seen the data on the lap top. The test was run by a bullet maker for a gun manufacturer. I know who is in charge of the data at the manuf. and I've put in 3 requests to have it released to me but no response. The same manufacturer right now is testing different groove configurations, as well as different bore and groove sizes. We made them like 25 different test barrels. In a different caliber we made them some 338 barrels with really wide grooves with 4 groove rifling. It was almost at the limit of our existing tooling.
Thank you for a very knowledgeable, respectful, and informative response. I have no clue who you are but you seem like you’re a wealth of information so thank you for that.
 
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Wow. Wasn’t aware a genuine thank you to somehow to truly doesn’t owe any info or explanation to anyone would ignite so much laughter. I guess I’m now a comedian. Sorry newer to the forum and literally yes a google search goes to reusable cups and stainless tumblers so that was a dead end.
 
Wow. Wasn’t aware a genuine thank you to somehow to truly doesn’t owe any info or explanation to anyone would ignite so much laughter. I guess I’m now a comedian. Sorry newer to the forum and literally yes a google search goes to reusable cups and stainless tumblers so that was a dead end.
It's a regular thing here. Don't worry about it.
 
Frank Runs and I believe owns Bartlein Barrels. You are getting the scoop from THE MAN himself.
I don’t own Bartlein. Tracy does. Myself, Andy and Tracy started Bartlein together.

Between Bartlein and Krieger when we worked there…. 26- 30 years now making barrels. Pretty much half my life. LOL!
 
Apologize for spreading false rumors. Yeah that is a fair bit of time making barrels. Sometimes we find the role that fits us and we enjoy. Now that you mention it I have been where I am for 2/3 of my life. Anyway glad to have you around!
 
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Apologize for spreading false rumors. Yeah that is a fair bit of time making barrels. Sometimes we find the role that fits us and we enjoy. Now that you mention it I have been where I am for 2/3 of my life. Anyway glad to have you around!
No worries and no need to apologize!

I'll say the interesting thing about this stuff is we are always learning.... also the better technology for testing that is being done.... more things pop up.

Obermeyer always claimed the 5R rifling was more accurate but I don't think he had any real scientific data to back that up. Not sure. I really didn't believe in that but I did believe in the 5R rifling helped fight bullet failure.

Now in the last few years there is actual hard data that shows more of what is going on and how it effects the bullet. I think Boots (Obermeyer) was on to it but just couldn't explain it/had the hard data to back it up.
 
I would be interested to know if it is the shape of the 5R rifling completely.
If 4 groove or 6 groove was made with the same shape lands, would it also perform the same.

Not even the "same" shape. Just more rounded off edges.

Since "R" is taken, could probably make millions patenting 4T and 6T rifling... T stands for "Tapered" lol

Shilen makes a 4 groove " ratchet rifling" barrel,which has an interesting profile ,check it out.I have four ,that I'm very please with.
22Nosler
6 Creed
6.5 Creed
7 Why Mag

All shoot small,fast without over pressure signs , dont copper foul ( not comp. guns ,so my barrels never get hot) and clean easy