Gunsmithing BAT vs Surgeon

A

Alan Griffith

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 28, 2007
340
15
Mouth of Hobble Creek Canyon, Utah
#1
I've read tons of great stuff about Surgeon actions as a place to start a tactical rifle. Just the other day I was researching guns to build said rifle. One 'smith, who will remain nameless at this point, told me that the Surgeon when compared to the BAT action is, and I quote, "junk". That's a pretty strong word to me. Not only is my condidence to use that action shot but my confidence to use that 'smith is pretty shot too. I'm afraid if I go against that 'smith's "advice" he will build a less than remarkable rifle just to say "I told you so". His comments came across to me as if he has an axe to grind with Surgeon.

I can get a Surgeon in a couple of days but would have to wait 6 months for a BAT and pay about $230 more.

Your "take" on this please.

I don't want to have a dog in this fight, if it is a fight. Just looking for opinions on BAT vs Surgeon.
 
#3
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

What exactly are you building?

i have heard great things about both. i will say Preston at surgeon is one of the nicest guys i met at Shot 2009

i am using a rsr on my next build, but if i had the money for a 591 surgeon, i might go with a bat instead, just get the tolerance looser, that would be a fine action
 
#5
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

Ya if you order a bat they will make the bolt loser if you ask. Also if you want a BAT with or with out a rail now i know where there is 5 of them. I also can get you a Surgeon right now with no wait. You cant go wrong either way
 
#8
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

Both actions have their niche in the shooting market. The BAT's are commonly found in your F-class and benchrest rifles. They have very tight tolerances and are a good action. The BAT's I have seen in tactical matches have had issues with them jamming up. They hold very tight tolerances, and any dirt or sand in the action will cause problems. The Surgeons do not hold as tight as tolerances, so you do not have the binding up problem. And they will shoot lights out. The solid rail on top really makes the action more stiff, which increases accuracy. I shoot a Surgeon, and you can not go wrong with one.
 
#9
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSSP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read tons of great stuff about Surgeon actions as a place to start a tactical rifle. Just the other day I was researching guns to build said rifle. One 'smith, who will remain nameless at this point, told me that the Surgeon when compared to the BAT action is, and I quote, "junk". That's a pretty strong word to me. Not only is my condidence to use that action shot but my confidence to use that 'smith is pretty shot too. I'm afraid if I go against that 'smith's "advice" he will build a less than remarkable rifle just to say "I told you so". His comments came across to me as if he has an axe to grind with Surgeon.

I can get a Surgeon in a couple of days but would have to wait 6 months for a BAT and pay about $230 more.

Your "take" on this please.

I don't want to have a dog in this fight, if it is a fight. Just looking for opinions on BAT vs Surgeon.

</div></div>

For what it’s worth,

A few of years back I was at Speedy Gonzales's shop and we were shooting the bull when the topic of custom actions came up. Speedy told me that the BAT action as well as Stiller's actions were by far away the most exact in spec and manufacturing that were being made. Speedy also said most g-smiths equipment wasn’t accurate enough to truly measure just how accurately those actions are manufactured. He also said you need only to see the type of equipment BAT and Stiller use to understand why they can achieve the manufacturing tolerances they build too. After my trip to Stiller’s shop I fully understood what Speedy was saying about the equipment being used.

At the time Speedy said the BAT would make an awful tactical action as their tolerances were way too tight and those actions were built for bench rest shooters. Though the post above now said BAT will now open them to accommodate the tactical shooter.
 
#10
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

GSSP, #1, Find a new smith!

#2 Surgeons are not junk, not by a long shot. Their actions are built for tactical market, while BAT actions are mainly for the Benchrest crowd.

For a tactical build, I would not choose anything over a Surgeon. But thats just me.
 
#16
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSSP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read tons of great stuff about Surgeon actions as a place to start a tactical rifle. Just the other day I was researching guns to build said rifle. One 'smith, who will remain nameless at this point, told me that the Surgeon when compared to the BAT action is, and I quote, "junk". That's a pretty strong word to me. Not only is my condidence to use that action shot but my confidence to use that 'smith is pretty shot too. I'm afraid if I go against that 'smith's "advice" he will build a less than remarkable rifle just to say "I told you so". His comments came across to me as if he has an axe to grind with Surgeon.

I can get a Surgeon in a couple of days but would have to wait 6 months for a BAT and pay about $230 more.

Your "take" on this please.

I don't want to have a dog in this fight, if it is a fight. Just looking for opinions on BAT vs Surgeon.

</div></div>

Like a dumbass I left the liftback open on the Ford Explorer between stages at a tactical match.We had to travel a 1/4 mile to go to the next stage.My Surgeon was in the back with action open facing up.When I went to get it,it was covered with a large amount of dust
cry.gif
. To my delight it worked fine,how be it very gritty though.

IMO,I don't think Surgeons give anything up as far as accuracy compared to BAT.I've shot some .2" groups with the rifle before at 100Y and put 7 shots into 13" at 1800Y before.

Steve
 
#17
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

Was in Phoenix last week and dropped into Bruno's. Got to handle a Bat VR with the pic rail. That was one of the smoothest actions I have ever felt. Dont know what the bolt tolerances were but it was very nice.
 
#18
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

A local gunsmith around me performed work out of his gunshop (he recently retired, and sold the business to his son). From what I have heard, he was an exceptional 'smith. But everything from handguns to rifles, if he didn't sell it in his shop, it was 'garbage'.

Nothing against the smiths' who vist here regularly, but I think some of the old timers who have resisted the 'tactical explosion' seem to stick with their old ways, and aren't open minded enough for their own good.

Buy either of them and you will be happy. If the 'smith caused you to rethink your build with an unqualified 'it's crap', it's time to find another smith.
 
#19
Re: BAT vs Surgeon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 257speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was in Phoenix last week and dropped into Bruno's. Got to handle a Bat VR with the pic rail. That was one of the smoothest actions I have ever felt. Dont know what the bolt tolerances were but it was very nice. </div></div>

I have one it's very nice. And to answer your question the BAT's bolt to raceway tolerance is .0015"-.0020".

Remington's is about .005"

Lawton is .003"

Surgeon is .004"

The BAT has a raceway cut into 3 sides instead of 1 circular shape. This reduces surface friction making it smooth and a tight fit to the bolt but still giving tolerance for debris. This is accompanied by heavy bolt fluting to help push away any grit. I love mine.

As far as Surgeon goes. Turn a piece of steel until it fits tightly in the receiver raceway. Put a barrel in the lathe and dial it in to .0001"-.0002" of runout then thread it. Then spin your action onto the barrel shank. Insert the mandrel you have made and check the runout with a dial indicator. Remingtons will wobble because the threads and raceway are not concentric. This is the problem or concern i have heard with Surgeon from a reputable gunsmith but have not experienced it myself (i have never built a rifle with one). The BAT's on the other hand will run real straight perhaps the Stiller too, maybe that is why they have a good reputation.

All things considered there have been a huge amount of very precise rifles built off of Remington and Surgeon recievers that shoot the lights out so i am not slamming Surgeon in any way. In fact i know of 1 rifle that has .022" of runout on the reciever that holds 3 world championships. So take it for what it's worth. I prefer the piece of mind of having the BAT. Have it made to whatever tolerance you can get. The Surgeon will work dirty because of the .004" of play same as the Remington. There isn't anything special about them just extra tolerances.
 
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