Gunsmithing Bedding Manners Stock Questions

[Wiley2019]

Hello, I’m sure this has been discussed before but I can’t seem to find an answer with all my searching here and on google. I’ve got a Manners TA elite tac finally arriving on Monday for an Origin 300wsm build with a Hawkins hunter dbm and I’m trying to get all the supplies I need for bedding it together for it’s arrival. I’ve done a little glass bedding before but I’ve never had to do my own pillars.

What I can’t figure out is if the action screw holes are already opened up enough for pillars, or if I’ll need to drill those myself. I now know I could have had manners install pillars but it’s too late now. So if I do need to cut the holes myself, what are y’all using to ensure they are straight? I don’t have a mill or anything of the sort so I’m not sure if I need a jig, or a special bit, or if I’m entirely overthinking the whole thing. I’m sure it’ll be no big deal once I’ve done it, but I’m regretting not opting for the mini chassis just to eliminate the stress at this point.

Thanks for y’all’s help

 

[spife7980]

A mill is best.
A hand drill is fine, you’ll have bedding compound all around the pillar to fill the sloppy holes.

 

[Tperry]

Hello, I’m sure this has been discussed before but I can’t seem to find an answer with all my searching here and on google. I’ve got a Manners TA elite tac finally arriving on Monday for an Origin 300wsm build with a Hawkins hunter dbm and I’m trying to get all the supplies I need for bedding it together for it’s arrival. I’ve done a little glass bedding before but I’ve never had to do my own pillars.

What I can’t figure out is if the action screw holes are already opened up enough for pillars, or if I’ll need to drill those myself. I now know I could have had manners install pillars but it’s too late now. So if I do need to cut the holes myself, what are y’all using to ensure they are straight? I don’t have a mill or anything of the sort so I’m not sure if I need a jig, or a special bit, or if I’m entirely overthinking the whole thing. I’m sure it’ll be no big deal once I’ve done it, but I’m regretting not opting for the mini chassis just to eliminate the stress at this point.

Thanks for y’all’s help

Your Hawkins DBM will come with pillars. The Manners should already be ready for pillars. You can epoxy the Hawkins pillars into the stock. Should be a drop in fit.

 

[Wiley2019]

Your Hawkins DBM will come with pillars. The Manners should already be ready for pillars. You can epoxy the Hawkins pillars into the stock. Should be a drop in fit.

Great, that’s what I was hoping for. I’ve seen pictures of new stocks that seem cut for pillars already, but I also have seen people say they run them without which doesn’t seem possible with pillar sized holes for the screws. Im sure I could drill them out if need be, just a bit of anxiety drilling into a high dollar piece of carbon that I’ve been waiting on for 9 months. All my other manners have been mini chassis but I didn’t want to add the weight to this once considering the adjustable stock will already weigh it down.

 

[Tperry]

Great, that’s what I was hoping for. I’ve seen pictures of new stocks that seem cut for pillars already, but I also have seen people say they run them without which doesn’t seem possible with pillar sized holes for the screws. Im sure I could drill them out if need be, just a bit of anxiety drilling into a high dollar piece of carbon that I’ve been waiting on for 9 months. All my other manners have been mini chassis but I didn’t want to add the weight to this once considering the adjustable stock will already weigh it down.

The reason guys can run without pillars is because the bottom metal provides a shoulder for the head of the screw. You're really just relying on the recoil lug and tightness of the screws at that point to keep it from sliding around in the stock.

Ideally you will install the pillars and bed the action. This is the best practice.

 

[Wiley2019]

The reason guys can run without pillars is because the bottom metal provides a shoulder for the head of the screw. You're really just relying on the recoil lug and tightness of the screws at that point to keep it from sliding around in the stock.

Ideally you will install the pillars and bed the action. This is the best practice.

That makes total sense I just wasn’t thinking about the bottom metal holes backing the bolt heads. Definitely going to be bedding with both the pillars and a normal glass bed. Right now the rifle is shooting 1/2” in a bravo chassis so this will be a good test of my bedding ability. Previously the only rifles I’ve bedded have been poor shooters that I was trying to improve. I appreciate your help, greatly reduced my anxiety on what sort of job lies ahead.

 

[Simonsza1]

The manners will be opened up to the exact diameter of the pillars supplied with it. If that’s what you were asking.

 

[Simonsza1]

Also to add that the pillars are absolutely necessary. That’s what allows you to get proper tourqe on the action screws by having a solid pillar between the bm and action. Otherwise you would crush the manners stock material easily. This is also why wood stocks improve from adding pillars. The above post from tperry if I’m reading it correctly and I may not be, is wrong. Also the pillars supplied with manners stocks do need to be cut to the proper length for your mag to feed properly. The spacing between bm and action is set by pillar length. The ones with the Hawkins may come set to the correct length but I’ve never used them. I have however used badger bm quite a few times with manners and the bm come with the proper length pillars already done. For standard 700 style actions with say m5 bm this is a standard length you could probably find to make it easier.

 

[Wiley2019]

Also to add that the pillars are absolutely necessary. That’s what allows you to get proper tourqe on the action screws by having a solid pillar between the bm and action. Otherwise you would crush the manners stock material easily. This is also why wood stocks improve from adding pillars. The above post from tperry if I’m reading it correctly and I may not be, is wrong. Also the pillars supplied with manners stocks do need to be cut to the proper length for your mag to feed properly. The spacing between bm and action is set by pillar length. The ones with the Hawkins may come set to the correct length but I’ve never used them. I have however used badger bm quite a few times with manners and the bm come with the proper length pillars already done. For standard 700 style actions with say m5 bm this is a standard length you could probably find to make it easier.

Correct, the Hawkins BM has the pillars cut to the correct length and I’ve always had the intent to pillar bed. My question was if the stock would already be drilled out for them or if I’d have to open up the action screw holes myself to accommodate them. Both you and tperry have confirmed that it should be ready for me to drop in and epoxy in the pillars and glass bed the rifle.

 

[Simonsza1]

Yes drilled out for them. You’re ready to rock and roll.

 

[Aftermath]

What We Manufacture | Score High Gunsmithing

We Manufacture a variety of products use to accurize rifles including Probed 2000 Stock Bedding Epoxy and Pillar Bedding Kits for DIY Gunsmithing.

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I bought the piloted counterbores, the drilling jigs and the bedding blocks quite a few years ago and have used them on most of my rifles and many of my friends. No need for expensive machinery.

He use to offer stuff to rent. I haven't looked for that option.

 

[Wiley2019]

Got the stock in the mail yesterday and it is drilled out for the pillars as others had said. Bottom metal should be here by the end of the week. I’ll post pictures when it’s all done if anyone wants to see.

I’ve got some probed on order that should be here before the bottom metal but I see a lot of people saying marine tex, do y’all have a preference or a reason to like one better than the other?

 

[WeiserBucks]

I like probed out of the products that I've used. I haven't used marinetex or devcon.

 

[spife7980]

Marine Tex and Devcon are equal in my book but the difference to me is that you can get marine Tex for less in smaller batches. The devcon chemicals go bad with time and separates out so most of it usually gets thrown out.

 

[Simonsza1]

Devcon 10110 is amazing. Shelf life of 2+ years

 

[Tperry]

Also to add that the pillars are absolutely necessary. That’s what allows you to get proper tourqe on the action screws by having a solid pillar between the bm and action. Otherwise you would crush the manners stock material easily. This is also why wood stocks improve from adding pillars. The above post from tperry if I’m reading it correctly and I may not be, is wrong. Also the pillars supplied with manners stocks do need to be cut to the proper length for your mag to feed properly. The spacing between bm and action is set by pillar length. The ones with the Hawkins may come set to the correct length but I’ve never used them. I have however used badger bm quite a few times with manners and the bm come with the proper length pillars already done. For standard 700 style actions with say m5 bm this is a standard length you could probably find to make it easier.

What about my post are you saying is wrong? I said all the same things you did.

 

[Simonsza1]

“The reason guys can run without pillars” why I said I may be reading it wrong cause everything else you said was fine but unless you have a bedding block, wood stock, pillars, mini chassis or a chassis then there is no running without pillars imo. Especially in a manners stock you cannot run without pillars or mini chassis.

 

[Tperry]

That was explaining why everything still bolts together without the pillars installed. You gotta read it in context with the whole post that I quoted and was replying too.

I have seen guys that don't know any better running without pillars.... I definitely wouldnt do it and definitely wouldn't recommend it, but it does happen.

 

[flatland1]

I like to glue the pillars in a day or so before I do the action bedding, and for that reason and that it's so easy to mix a small amount of epoxy for the pillars, I usually use J-B Weld on the pillars, and then come back with Marine Tex for the action. I used to use Devcon #10110 steel putty, but several years ago, their 1lb kits started coming with the hardener in a much larger container than the older kits had - roughly twice as large, but with no more content. That's when I started having problems with the hardener going bad/drying out long before I'd even come close to using the whole kit up. If I were doing a lot more bedding jobs per month, Devcon would still be fine, but I've yet to have the gel hardener in Marine Tex kits go bad, so...

 

[LRI]

So decades ago, wood stocks were the default choice for a bolt gun. Over time it was noticed that the screws would loosen up as the material is organic, and it shrinks/swells in response to the environment. To combat this, people started using the ferrules for assembling a lampshade, and "alla peanut butter sammiches," the pillar bedded gun stock, was born.

A modern composite stock with any reasonably dense filler material really doesn't require a pillar. Using one doesn't hurt anything, but you're not giving up any performance.

As far as the installation. Discussions immediately surface about installing the pillars first and bedding second. FWIW, I always install them during bedding. The holes the pillars fit into are made oversized so that the cylinder contacts nothing but the action. The receiver, recoil lug, and pillars float in space. Tape is wound around the barrel cylinder just ahead of the lug and up at the front of the barrel channel to locate the barreled action. This controls alignment, pitch, and installed height.

My logic behind this is that I want the action, pillars, and lug to be as tension-free as possible. The assembly starts by floating in a small pond of vicious fluid that eventually transforms into a high-density solid. Obviously, installing the pillars first can work, but I caution anyone doing it that way to be very cognizant about making sure they go in coaxial to the screws and that the installed height is Jonny on the spot.

The 2nd thing to be aware of is knowing for an absolute fact that the barrel lies centered on the barrel channel naturally because once the adhesive to attach the pillars cures, it's going to forever drive the boat on how the barreled action sits in the stock. All the tape in the world won't overcome an alignment error from a pillar being installed incorrectly.

Last: Aluminum has been the defacto material for bedding pillars for as long as I've been doing this stuff. There's nothing wrong with it provided you do a few extra steps. AL will oxidize in an open atmosphere very quickly. The skin of aluminum oxide forms on any exterior surface exposed to the environment. This oxide does not aid in adhesion to epoxy. (any epoxy) Ones that are glued in soon after coming off of a turning center aren't any better. Resin needs a tooth for proper adhesion. The best way I've found is to hit em in a blast cabinet with garnet or DuPont Star Blast right before I bed a gun with them. The other solution is to scuff the snot out of them with clean 60-grit abrasive paper, followed by throwing them in a cup of acetone. Dry them off and handle them with gloved hands. Glue them in immediately to avoid the AO from forming. I say this because, over the years, I've had a number of guns show up with pillars that literally fall out of the stock when the thing is taken apart.

Good luck.