Night Vision Beginning of my NV/thermal quest.

[Jay03]

I have been lurking for a while and shooting/hunting most all my life. I went though the expensive and lengthy wait converting a few of my rifles and rimfires over to suppressed. Well now I am beginning the search for at least one NV or thermal scope or clip-on for my day scope and a scanning/identifying device.

My primary use is nighttime predator/varmint hunting or control. I hunt out west in a mix of open desert, riparian areas, and sparse forest/juniper hills. At night shots are usually close for me, within 100 yards most of the time. Occasionally there are opportunities for further shots but with my current setup I have to pass on those. I use red lights now and usually a shotgun. But would like to move to NV for obvious reasons. Like most money is an object but I don't like junk and prescribe to the buy once cry once mentality. I could set aside 2-3K for this easily and if needed stretch that out a little if it makes sense to do so. Realistically use will be a few times a season. Maybe a little more if its a game changer for night hunting. I am not going to drop 5-6K though on something that will only see limited use.

I have a CZ 455 22/22mag suppressed set up, AR15 and a bolt rifle in .223/5.56 both suppressed, possibly a 6mm seekins havak, and in the future(waiting on stamp) a 300blk that are the weapons I plan on using the NV on if that matters at all. I lean more towards the clip-on but realize especially for thermal they are very costly for good image quality.

Locally I cant think of anywhere that carries these kind of optics so its tough for me to get some hands on, I have done a bit of research but its just reading at this point. So my question is for you that have used a few different systems or have done a fair bit of night hunting with thermal or NV what are some optics you would point me towards to start with given the info I gave above? Anything else I should be considering while doing my research? Thanks for your time.

 

[wigwamitus]

Well with $2k to $3k budget ... you'll be scrapping to bottom of the barrel and still blowing your budget, especially if you want BOTH a scope/clipon AND a scanner.

Pulsar is the name of the game for low end thermals. For NV Clipons the SIMRADs we're discussing in other threads, can be had (used) for $1,500 to $2,000 and offer a great image ... but they are a bit unwieldy and so would primarily be used on guns mounted on tripods.

For a new Helion ... around $2,600 is the price of entry.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl77394-helion-xq38f-therml-bin.html

The Quantums are pretty much discontinued now, but can be found on the used market and some dealers still have them in stock. OP is actually showing an HD-19A for $1900 (which you could get for $1,700 is you call them and make them that offer).

So $1,500 and $2,600 is $4,100 ... and you will need a new mount for your day scope to work with the SIMRAD. I use the Spuhr ISMS (system). Badger also makes something that works. And you'll need an ir-illuminator. The Luna ELIR-3 is a good option there. So with the accessories, call it another $800 or so as you'll need some batteries. And if you don't have a tripod, you'll need a tripod and head. I've used Manfrottos for almost three years, they run around $300 for the tripod and head. Accuracy? Depends on how much the wind is blowing you around, but steady 2 MOA on most nights. The RRS, can do under 1.5 moa (even 1 MOA on a good day) but those run close to $1,500.

Here a SIMRAD kn253 on an L&S mk6 3-18x T3 (42mm bell) in a SPuhr ISMI with a RAPTAR on the 9 o'clock. On a Manfrotto tripod.

Here's a shot from the other side with the ELIR-3 visible at the 3 o'clock.

So for the bottom of the barrel, that's around $5,500 (rounding up).

==
As to thermal clipons, the military ones are worth having, but all those have MSRP of over $10k, so don't quite fit into the $2k to $3k budget.

==
Now for just a thermal scope, a pulsar trail

https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-trail-thermal-imaging-sight.html
Around $3,500

Then you could skip the new scope mount and the ir-illuminator and the handheld scanner. Just mount the scope on the gun, put it on the tripod and start scanning.

 

[Jay03]

I am realizing that I'll probably just be getting a scope/clip on for my initial budget. And maybe look into a scanner later. I do have a few decent tripods so I could go that route if needed. I probably know the answer but figure maybe someone here will know for sure, what is the story with the Pulsar F155 /F135 digital night vision? They seem pretty popular in Europe with night hunters. Are they any good or no? I like the idea of attaching to several different scopes so I don't have to keep moving optics around or have to keep a rifle as a dedicated night setup. Or is thermal that way to go over NV hands down?

 

[wigwamitus]

If you have more than one rifle, then set one up as a dedicated night setup with thermal. Thermal can see critters way better than NV especially in vegetation. Now, your description of the terrain you will be in sounds like you do not have a ton of vegetation. And BTW, I think that is the best description of terrain I've seen on here for someone asking about NV/thermal !!!
So, you might not need thermal.
I on the other hand, have a lot of thick woods and I can't see into any of my pastures without looking thru at least a tree line and NV can't see thru even that treeline except on clear nights with moon over head. The illuminator bounces off the trees and I can see even less with the illuminator on. So for me, NV is almost useless. But for you, it might work, since it sounds like you have a lot of open terrain and even your woods are fairly open.

I do think terrain takes more experience to be able to PID. PID is not just based on shape. PID is based on posture and movement.

==
But realize, even if you go with the SIMRAD, you'll have to change your rings/mounts for any rifle you want to use the SIMRAD on. The badger ord. solutio runs between $300 and $400 and the Spuhr solution runs around $420. So, if you do that for three rifles, that's another $1,200. Well, unless you already have the badger's or spuhr's that take the SIMRAD mounts.

==
I guess I'm a thermal bigot. I've been using NV and Thermal for 4.5 years averaging 10 hrs a week out there at night and I'd feel blind without thermal. But there are plenty of people who prefer NV !

But for me, I'd get one thermal, the best one I could afford, and go with that.

==
A bit of a gallery to give you ideas ...

Dedicated night carbine ... 5.56(10.3) with Trijicon Mk3 60mm 4.5x 640(60) thermal. On helmet, COTI 10mm, 1x 320(30) thermal on PVS-14 over right eye and Trijicon Patrol 19mm, 1x 640(60) on left eye. This is my "walking and stalkin' setup.

==
Rifle, with thermal clipon, day or night gun. 7.62(22) bolt gun. BAE UTCx 1x 75mm 640(60), NF 7-35x T3, IR&D VSO LRF (PVS-14 with NODN adapter for zeroing the LRF). This is the long distance tripod setup.

==
Cow laying down 400yds, not visible to NV due to having to look thru tree line.

==
Cattle at 1800yds and 2300yds. I doubt I'd ever take a shot over 500yds at night (and then only at a yote) but it helps to be able to see farther out. We've determined stalk strategy based on seeing hogs 1200-2400 yards out several times.

==
My shooting buddy got this coyote with 5.56(16) with Pulsar Apex 50mm 2x 384(50)

The pulsars can get the job done.

==
If it was me, based on what I've learned in the time I've been going out, I'd get a thermal scope and set up one gun as my night gun. Then I wouldn't have to wonder what I wasn't seeing

 

[Jay03]

I am starting to lean towards the pulsar Apex XQ50. Seems like the best value of the Pulsar bunch. I am not sure what the Trail XQ50 has for another 1K, battery life? Is there bigger battery packs for the Apex line?

 

[wigwamitus]

The Apex are fine. They lack the internal battery pack and the internal video, neither of which are required. And yes, external battery pacls are available for the Apex, but they are not required. Just change the batteries when needed !!! There is a battery status indicator.

 

[deersniper]

Buy a used t50 for $3000. Can be used clip on or rifle scope and recoil rated up to 50.

 

[Jay03]

What scopes can this be used in front of? Does it have to be a 1x or red dot type optic? Or can it be used in front of variables?

This was supposed to be a response to the post above about the T50, I didn't get it to quote for some reason.

 

[Jay03]

So to start off I purchased a Pulsar Quantum XQ30V for scanning. I got a good price on it and after plenty of video watching and research I think it will work well for my needs. I have my eye on the Pulsar Apex XQ38 or possibly the Trail XQ38 but not sure if the Trail offers anything for me since I don't really have a desire to record and will use it infrequently enough to get by just fine with batteries. I am going to search for higher end used thermals for a bit first then search out a deal on one of the above mentioned.

 

[White Mamba]

I used a t50 in front of a nightforce 2-10 for a couple years. It works great and has a quick start up time. You can push it to 400yrds if conditions were perfect but I think 200yrds and in is where its most comfortable

 

[wigwamitus]

jay03 ... given the open nature of your terrain, I think you would be happier with the XQ50 due to greater optical magnification.

White Mamba ... what magnification could you crank on that NF 2-10x behind the T50 and still have a decent image ??

 

[White Mamba]

jay03 ... given the open nature of your terrain, I think you would be happier with the XQ50 due to greater optical magnification.

White Mamba ... what magnification could you crank on that NF 2-10x behind the T50 and still have a decent image ??

Probably around 6 , 8x is doable at times under some situations .
I was using it for pigs so the pixelation didn't really bother me when the shots were farther

 

[wigwamitus]

So what if you wanted a "clear" image for taking moo vees ?

 

[White Mamba]

Under 100yrds and 4x, of course everything looks good at 50yards

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye, that's about what I expected. My first thermal was an Armasight Apollo 336 clipon ... and it could do 2x on the day scope, everyone said it could do 3x and it could but it was starting to get fuzzy. But the T50 should have a better display and hence should be maybe twice as good, so 4x clear sounds about right.

==
And for the OP, the issue with thermal clipons is that you are zooming in on the TV screen and for most of the clipons that means every 2x of magnification and you give up 75% of your pixels (which could be restated as 75% of your pixels). So for a 640x480 microbolometer ... 2x leaves you with 320x240 ... half on the x axis and half on the y axis net/net 25% of your pixels left. So another 2x and you are at 4x total magnification and 160x120 on your pixels and 94% of your pixels gone.
Same with a 320x240 format microbolometer ... except you start with 320x240. So now 2x is 180x120 and 4x would be 90x60. Loosing lots of pixels !!

The military clipons have better components, particularly the display, so you get a crisper image which doesn't fuzz up so fast, but that isn't free. Also, the long range military thermal clipon use the "tiny screen" trick, essentially demagnifying on the back end and re-magnifying on the front end. Net/net 1x thru the device, but the thermal clipon display doesn't fill until maybe 3x or 4x on the day scope. You've lost 0 pixels at say 3x. The 6x and you've lost 75% then 12x and you've lost the second 75% ... hence those long distance military thermal clipons can support over 10x magnification on the day scope. But those are really hard to find for under $10k ...

But the t50 for $3k is not a bad deal, just understand that you won't get much magnification out of it and if you day scope minimum magnification is over 4x then the image might be a bit fuzzy.

 

[TheGerman]

Buy a used t50 for $3000. Can be used clip on or rifle scope and recoil rated up to 50.

View attachment 6962458

How good are these or are they kind of meh? And where are they for 3k? I thought the T50 was one of the 'better' milspec thermals?

Sounds like this would be ideal for the 3x ACOG.

 

[Jay03]

jay03 ... given the open nature of your terrain, I think you would be happier with the XQ50 due to greater optical magnification.

White Mamba ... what magnification could you crank on that NF 2-10x behind the T50 and still have a decent image ??

Well I went with higher magnification scanner for that reason and to help with identification, but with my hunting style shots usually end up close. So I am wondering if the bigger FOV of the XQ38 wouldn't be the way to go? I with I could test out both to see the real world difference.

 

[Jay03]

How good are these or are they kind of meh? And where are they for 3k? I thought the T50 was one of the 'better' milspec thermals?

Sounds like this would be ideal for the 3x ACOG.

In my research is seems the T50 was mostly made for the ACOG.

 

[Jay03]

Aye, that's about what I expected. My first thermal was an Armasight Apollo 336 clipon ... and it could do 2x on the day scope, everyone said it could do 3x and it could but it was starting to get fuzzy. But the T50 should have a better display and hence should be maybe twice as good, so 4x clear sounds about right.

==
And for the OP, the issue with thermal clipons is that you are zooming in on the TV screen and for most of the clipons that means every 2x of magnification and you give up 75% of your pixels (which could be restated as 75% of your pixels). So for a 640x480 microbolometer ... 2x leaves you with 320x240 ... half on the x axis and half on the y axis net/net 25% of your pixels left. So another 2x and you are at 4x total magnification and 160x120 on your pixels and 94% of your pixels gone.
Same with a 320x240 format microbolometer ... except you start with 320x240. So now 2x is 180x120 and 4x would be 90x60. Loosing lots of pixels !!

The military clipons have better components, particularly the display, so you get a crisper image which doesn't fuzz up so fast, but that isn't free. Also, the long range military thermal clipon use the "tiny screen" trick, essentially demagnifying on the back end and re-magnifying on the front end. Net/net 1x thru the device, but the thermal clipon display doesn't fill until maybe 3x or 4x on the day scope. You've lost 0 pixels at say 3x. The 6x and you've lost 75% then 12x and you've lost the second 75% ... hence those long distance military thermal clipons can support over 10x magnification on the day scope. But those are really hard to find for under $10k ...

But the t50 for $3k is not a bad deal, just understand that you won't get much magnification out of it and if you day scope minimum magnification is over 4x then the image might be a bit fuzzy.

Yeah I gave up on a thermal clip-on for the reasons you mentioned. In my mind it would be the way to go but in reality I am finding a thermal scope will be much better and more affordable. It would be cheaper to purchase a dedicated nighttime rifle with a thermal scope to match my daytime rifle than to buy a thermal clip on for 10+K. Haha I am not planning on doing that as I have plenty of rifles but I am just saying, one could and still come out money ahead.

 

[wigwamitus]

Right and the plus of the dedicated thermal scope is the optical magnification is on the front so no resolution loss for that optical magnification. So, like a thermal scope with 2x optical magnification that's on the front. Then if you add 2x digital magnification, you are "zooming in on the pixels" and you loose 75% of your pixels but you now have net 4x magnification.

I've seen dedicated scopes with magnifications running anywhere from 1x up to 8x. I have a 4.5x now and that is a lot of magnification. Too much really. But, if you are in mostly open terrain, then more magnification is good, especially since you have a separate thermal scanner. So, for you, 3x is better than 2x and 4x is better than 3x.

 

[Jay03]

So as I am looking at the Apex for example the XQ38 has a magnification 2.2-8.8 but is that different from the digital zoom of 2x, 3x, and 4x. Do they compound? If I am understanding this right magnification retains the resolution as it increases but the digital degrades it as it gets higher.

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, let's say for thermals there are three kinds of "magnification" ...
01 - Front End or "Optical"
02 - Digital
03 - Day Scope - behind a thermal clipon

Thermals exist with variable optical magnification, but I'm not aware of any weapons mountable thermals with such lenses. So they're all "fixed" magnification.

Digital magnification zooms the the rear display in and yes we loose pixels/resolution 75% for every 2x. The digital magnification does "compound" with the optical. So 2x optical and 2x digital is net 4x. The 2x digital cost 75% of your pixels, the optical was free no pixels loss.

Day scope magnification is zooming in on the rear display and we loose pixels/resolution 75% for every 2x.

 

[deersniper]

How good are these or are they kind of meh? And where are they for 3k? I thought the T50 was one of the 'better' milspec thermals?

Sounds like this would be ideal for the 3x ACOG.

They pop up for 3-4k from time to time. They are the best clip on in that price range.

 

[TheGerman]

Yeah I'd be in for a T50 that is correctly culminated (not the LEO trade in ones with issues) for 2500-3k.

 

[deersniper]

Yeah I'd be in for a T50 that is correctly culminated (not the LEO trade in ones with issues) for 2500-3k.

You have any more info on the LE trades ins with issues. How do you identify them and what are the issues.

 

[TheGerman]

You have any more info on the LE trades ins with issues. How do you identify them and what are the issues.

I don't but I'm sure someone on here does.

I was basically told to beware of them as they only work at 1x and have problems at anything past that. How do readily ID them, I haven't found that out yet.

 

[Jay03]

Well I have a pulsar Apex XQ38 inbound. The guys at scopelist gave me a price I couldn't pass up. I'm sure it will suit my needs very well. And like anything else if it falls short I can upgrade down the road and not lose much in reselling this if I need to. Thanks to all who chimed in with advice. I have learned quite a bit about NV and thermals and I'm sure I will learn exponentially more after I use this stuff for a little while.