Range Report Berger 109 Hybrid Verified BC

[lte82]

I know a lot of guys are asking questions or waiting on there bullets to arrive, so I figured I'd throw out some numbers. I ran the 109's from 300 to 1000 yards at day break, and got a trued G7 BC of .295 in a Bartlein 5R 7T. While the BC improvement over the 105 isn't much to write home about, I was able to use the same charge weight and setting on the seater die and maintain great accuracy with only a small drop in velocity. Vertical dispersion is as good or better than the 105 hybrids, so my guess is that they are even more consistent BC wise.

If you have a bunch of 105's like I do, I wouldn't switch until you are out of them. But if you are out, I wouldn't be scared to make the switch!

 

[Sheldon N]

Nice, thanks for the info. I'm also interested in the 109's once my stash of 105's starts to get low.

How do the meplats look compared to 105's? Do you think there's much BC to be gained by pointing?

 

[lte82]

Nice, thanks for the info. I'm also interested in the 109's once my stash of 105's starts to get low.

How do the meplats look compared to 105's? Do you think there's much BC to be gained by pointing?

The 109s have smaller meplats than the 105s, and are definitely pointed already. You could maybe close them up all the way, but I don’t know if that buys any BC? I think the selling point will be BC consistency and shrinking vertical at distance.

 

[kthomas]

The 109's interest me. I have 4,000 105 Berger Hybrids to shoot through before I'll consider them though...

 

[Sheldon N]

The 109s have smaller meplats than the 105s, and are definitely pointed already. You could maybe close them up all the way, but I don’t know if that buys any BC? I think the selling point will be BC consistency and shrinking vertical at distance.

Probably wouldn't buy much if any. I don't close the meplats on the 105's all the way either so would be a wash.

On the plus side, pre-pointed is nice.

 

[47guy]

I know a lot of guys are asking questions or waiting on there bullets to arrive, so I figured I'd throw out some numbers. I ran the 109's from 300 to 1000 yards at day break, and got a trued G7 BC of .295 in a Bartlein 5R 7T. While the BC improvement over the 105 isn't much to write home about, I was able to use the same charge weight and setting on the seater die and maintain great accuracy with only a small drop in velocity. Vertical dispersion is as good or better than the 105 hybrids, so my guess is that they are even more consistent BC wise.

If you have a bunch of 105's like I do, I wouldn't switch until you are out of them. But if you are out, I wouldn't be scared to make the switch!

how far off the lands?

ive got a few loaded im going to shoot this morning at 100yds out of an 8T bartlein to see if they are going to stabilize like they say.

 

[lte82]

how far off the lands?

ive got a few loaded im going to shoot this morning at 100yds out of an 8T bartlein to see if they are going to stabilize like they say.

.020 off more or less. They have the same SG as 105 hybrids. IMO 7.5 is better suited for both of those bullets, but 8 should work fine.

 

[47guy]

.020 off more or less. They have the same SG as 105 hybrids. IMO 7.5 is better suited for both of those bullets, but 8 should work fine.

thanks...im starting at about .023 off...agree about the 7.5T...my 8T does not shoot the 105 hybrids very well and ill be going back to the 7.5T now...ive been shooting the 108s in a couple of barrels but want to get back to the higher BCs.

 

[47guy]

@lte82

they shoot ok I could probably make them shoot but this barrel is at 1600 rounds and I’m not going to waste a lotta time with it.
I’ll try them In the next one.

109s..BRX..varget..fed205m..Peterson brass..Bartlein 8T
1-32.1
2-32.3
3-32
4-32.7
5-32.9

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m about to have a new 6br chambered for these. Call me crazy, but I like a 5mph gun. It’s just easier for me to make wind calculations.

Looking at running 109’s around 2750-2800.

 

[47guy]

I’m about to have a new 6br chambered for these. Call me crazy, but I like a 5mph gun. It’s just easier for me to make wind calculations.

Looking at running 109’s around 2750-2800.

youll get that easy...i just shot a couple of BR barrels and 2850ish was easy with 108g bergers and the 109s have about .023 less bearing surface.

 

[jmornoinf]

So far so good with the 109s. Groups the same as the 105s. Will see at 1000yds in March?

In my gun at .020 off, the 109s are .003 longer to the ogive than the 105s.

Current load:
Gun: Impact Precision 6mm Creedmoor
Barrel: 26" Bartlien barrel 1:7 twist
Load: 41.2gr H4350
Speed: 3048 fps

 

[anotherwannabe]

If you’re shooting same load as the 105’s how much slower are the 109’s vs 105?

 

[47guy]

If you’re shooting same load as the 105’s how much slower are the 109’s vs 105?

load in my rifle is 32.3g varget with a 108g berger and runs 2970ish same charge with 109 is 2950 but the 109 has less bearing surface.

 

[47guy]

i know its a pretty narrow window but ill have to eat my words i think they will shoot in an 8 twist just not as well as they would in a 7.5.

i just threw 32.7g in some cases i need to get the second firing on and .010 off shot pretty well...i took it out to 1082yds and was 7.4mils with a 2.5 to 3mil left to right...same load with a 108g berger 10fps slower is 8.2mils so these are pretty slippery.
my 7.5 twist BRA will be ready tomorrow or tuesday ill play with the 109s in it a little and see what they do.

 

[jmornoinf]

So far so good with the 109s. Groups the same as the 105s. Will see at 1000yds in March?

In my gun at .020 off, the 109s are .003 longer to the ogive than the 105s.

Current load:
Gun: Impact Precision 6mm Creedmoor
Barrel: 26" Bartlien barrel 1:7 twist
Load: 41.2gr H4350
Speed: 3048 fps

I am shooting the 109s at 41.2gr at 3048 and 105s at 41.0 at 3054

 

[John Glidewell]

I just tested mine the other day. 1-8 twist, 26" PVA barrel, 39.3 of RL16 with BR2 primers at .030 off lands. Produced 3034 and was 7.1 mils to 1083 with a trued BC at .335

 

[anotherwannabe]

My experience has been a little more "straight off the box" than others saying you need a higher than advertised BC

6 creed - 1/7 twist 29 inch kreiger, 40.6gr RL16, Alpha LRP, F210M, 2.795 COAL (jumping them about .098 ... yes you read that right).
3110fp (SD below 10 for 10 shot string)

.568 G1 BC from the box was getting me first round hits out to 1100 yards on fresh steel that was very tight on the water lines (within my margin of shooter variance)

1100 yard drop from my app is 7.86 mils, 1k is 6.59 mils - from that day

 

[anotherwannabe]

Probably worth noting:

In the same gun I was running the 105 hybrids with the exact same charge, but slightly different seating depth (for best groups) and they runs 3130fps. So 109's are 20fps slower than 105's for me and groups are nearly identical.

For the 105 hybrid the box says .536 G1 and I had to use .547 to be trued up beyond about 900 yards (I can only test to 1200 at my local) and that was able to get me hits on plate to 1500 in a PRS comp. I was walking it in for wind, but not elevation.

 

[gonzaga]

109 Berger,41gr of H4350, 20k off lands, 1:8 twist barrel. No speed yet.

 

[Hunter Sykes]

Made the swap to the 109s mostly because I was tired of tipping the 105s.

Shot about 2k of them already and two PRS matches. Running them at 2891 in a 6 cheesecake (brx similar) and a G7 of .302. 1/7 proof barrel

I settled with .2 less varget than I was using with the 105s but before I dropped back I was getting 30fps slower consistently at comparable charge weights.
My impression so far is that I’m gonna thoroughly enjoy the 8k more that I have because they are super consistent.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I’ve seen a few different calibers mentioned. Might help when you post info if you post what caliber as well.

I’ve got 500 of the 109s coming for a new build as well. Looking forward to shooting some.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Made the swap to the 109s mostly because I was tired of tipping the 105s.

Shot about 2k of them already and two PRS matches. Running them at 2891 in a 6 cheesecake (brx similar) and a G7 of .302. 1/7 proof barrel

I settled with .2 less varget than I was using with the 105s but before I dropped back I was getting 30fps slower consistently at comparable charge weights.
My impression so far is that I’m gonna thoroughly enjoy the 8k more that I have because they are super consistent.

The tips on the 109’s seem to be much more consistent. At least visually. I haven’t ventured into tipping bullets.......yet.

 

[just browsing]

Ran them up to 3100 without pressure in my 29” 6x47L. RL-16 and .020 off. I ended up in the 3040 range but it was only one of multiple nodes. Super easy to tune.

BC of .292 has seemed correct out to 700 but haven’t had a chance to verify beyond that.

 

[Hunter Sykes]

The tips on the 109’s seem to be much more consistent. At least visually. I haven’t ventured into tipping bullets.......yet.

Tipping isn’t hard but it is yet another step and if you aren’t careful when you swap lots you can smash a few before noticing it. Not saying that I’ve done that but not denying it either...

 

[Hunter Sykes]

I’ve seen a few different calibers mentioned. Might help when you post info if you post what caliber as well.

I’ve got 500 of the 109s coming for a new build as well. Looking forward to shooting some.

Twist rate for bc truing is a must

 

[Hunter Sykes]

Ran them up to 3100 without pressure in my 29” 6x47L. RL-16 and .020 off. I ended up in the 3040 range but it was only one of multiple nodes. Super easy to tune.

BC of .292 has seemed correct out to 700 but haven’t had a chance to verify beyond that.

what twist rate are you running?

 

[just browsing]

what twist rate are you running?

7.5

 

[sierracharlie338]

christmas!

 

[Hunter Sykes]

7.5

I bet it’ll jump up just a little more when you can stretch it out a little more.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Over the past 6 weeks in 3 different weather conditions and wind vectors, I have narrowed down the B.C. that works in both Hornady 4DOF and JBM to that of .308g7 for 0-1000y

This is using it in a 6mm GT 7.5 Twist 26" Benchmark that's is flinging them 2951fps.

 

[Olen_4504]

used .304 on Saturday out to 900y-1140y and was pretty spot on

6BR
1:7
2745fps

@just browsing at 700 yards, you won't really notice anything tweaking the BC. you need to be testing it at further distance.


for example: if you bump the 105g hybrid BC from .275 to .287 you don't see any difference in output for elevation at 700y. but at 1000y it's a .2 mil difference.

same goes for the 109g hybrid and changing it from .292 to .304 for example.

they say a minimum of 800y for truing BC


i've talked to a handful of guys running the 109s in 1:7 twist in BR based calibers and we are all using .304 give or take.

 

[Curt193]

So I read the thread. I can't seem to get my 109 to group. 177 rounds down the barrel. 26" bartlien 7.5. shot some ELD 108 box ammo to break it in. It's a 6cm buttoned up to a curtis axiom.

I'm getting .64moa groups with a node at 40.2gn RL16, .020, federal 210m in some virgin brass 2069. The bumped brass is at 2979. 10fps difference between fireformed and virgin huh? Today ES was 7 and SD of 3. I got some loaded up with a bigger jump. I've heard these like a big .065-.08 jump. So I'm gunna try them out. I'll be shooting those out @ 700. Maybe it's just me at 100.

 

[47guy]

So I read the thread. I can't seem to get my 109 to group. 177 rounds down the barrel. 26" bartlien 7.5. shot some ELD 108 box ammo to break it in. It's a 6cm buttoned up to a curtis axiom.

I'm getting .64moa groups with a node at 40.2gn RL16, .020, federal 210m in some virgin brass 2069. The bumped brass is at 2979. 10fps difference between fireformed and virgin huh? Today ES was 7 and SD of 3. I got some loaded up with a bigger jump. I've heard these like a big .065-.08 jump. So I'm gunna try them out. I'll be shooting those out @ 700. Maybe it's just me at 100.View attachment 7288774

try running them closer to the lands

 

[Curt193]

try running them closer to the lands

I have some .005, .01 and .03, .06 -.08 all loaded up. I don't think I'm gunna chase the 100 group though. I want to see what they do out at distance. It was just frustrating that the ladder didn't work for me. And the ES/SD are so low its got to be another variable

 

[47guy]

I have some .005, .01 and .03, .06 -.08 all loaded up. I don't think I'm gunna chase the 100 group though. I want to see what they do out at distance. It was just frustrating that the ladder didn't work for me. And the ES/SD are so low its got to be another variable

ladder tests are not the best way to find loads IMO...as far as ESs I don’t worry about them unless they get over 25-30fps.

 

[MachoMan]

N

Over the past 6 weeks in 3 different weather conditions and wind vectors, I have narrowed down the B.C. that works in both Hornady 4DOF and JBM to that of .308g7 for 0-1000y

This is using it in a 6mm GT 7.5 Twist 26" Benchmark that's is flinging them 2951fps.

Niles what is the load u are running with them in the GT?

 

[Niles Coyote]

N

Niles what is the load u are running with them in the GT?

34.3 gr of varget in one barrel, 34.5gr in a second, both in Hornady brass and cci450 primers.

 

[morganlamprecht]

thread is a little old but i finally burned thru most of my 108 bergers and started to switch to the 109s this past weekend

only had 800 yds, but runnin them 3020 from a 1:8, .320 g7 put me on a 6" dot...they shot well...5 shot @ 500 was just under 3", and 2-5 shot groups @ 800, one was 7" and the other was 5"

same barrel/scope shooting the 108s side by side, my same old 108 dope using the .268 g7 from the box lined up perfectly...couldnt believe the 109s were that high...ill have to check them out further when i get a chance, but ive never had 800 trued not make it to 11-1200 pretty close to spot on

the last 5 I had left @ 800 after truing

 

[anotherwannabe]

I've put the 109's through 3 diff 7 twist barrels at 2900 and 3110 now and .292 G7 from the box has been working great out to 1100 on my app at least.

.320 versus .292 on my calculator at 800 is only .15 mil diff but at 1100 (farthest TYL that I've shot more than once with them) thats .37 diff.
I could imagine being off .15 at 800 with shooter wiggle, slight zero change, etc.
.4 mils high is missing the big plate at 1100 let alone the far end 1/2 moa KYL, thats a lot.

is 3020 your 108 speed or did you re-chrono? maybe they're running faster than the 108?

 

[morganlamprecht]

i ran 100% of them with a labradar...using the velocity right off the lab with the 108s and 109s put me waterline @ 400 and 500

i shot 3- 108s at 100 inside a 3/4" dot, then shot 4- 109s inside the same dot...then at 800 with the 109s, i was .2 high with the box BC...the 108s ive shot 1000s of were spot on

i shot 2 groups to true it (because i didnt believe the first one), then the last 5 pictured above at the orange dots once i adjusted

i also got a higher BC on the 144s the day after...first, i shot 130 hybrids ive been running for years...box .287 lined up perfect on the 130s...for the 144s i had to go from .336 (box) to .345...then i shot them from a new barrel the next day and .345 lined up for that one also

at a match last weekend a buddy of mine ran .296 and had to hold bottom edge of the plates from 700-1070...but he hasnt gone back out to true them since to refine it

 

[just browsing]

A lot of us in the Northeast have had intermittent elevation issues with the 109s and jumped ship back to 105s. We also thought that increasing the G7 to match rifle would do the trick but found that some days it’s on... and others it’s not.

Honestly just not worth the difference in performance over the 105s if they’re not 100% reliable. YMMV.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yea ill be keepin an eye on it...i know the 108s are always on, if the 109s dont hold up theyll be kicked down the road

 

[anotherwannabe]

<1% BC variance.... whatever that might be....

 

[Dthomas3523]

<1% BC variance.... whatever that might be....

So far it’s holding up for me. I have used three lots of 109’s. With the AB curve, I haven’t had to mess with anything. Input the velocity and go. It’s been dead nuts to 1100.

With the 105’s, I always had to tweak a little lot to lot. Be it using BC or custom curve.

 

[Darkside-Six]

A lot of us in the Northeast have had intermittent elevation issues with the 109s and jumped ship back to 105s. We also thought that increasing the G7 to match rifle would do the trick but found that some days it’s on... and others it’s not.

Honestly just not worth the difference in performance over the 105s if they’re not 100% reliable. YMMV.

Yessir. I’m in Michigan and have started having these exactl same issues. Talked with a few shooters i shoot club matches with and they’ve all said the same so just switched to 105’s.

 

[morganlamprecht]

These elevation issues...are they just different day to day? Different in varying winds, ie drop doesn’t match calc when winds change? Are y’all leaving WS1 in a kestrel and using AJ?

same lot bullets are different day to day? Or difference lot to lot?

lot to lot changes would be frustrating, not a fan of that... but if y’all are meaning day to day with same lot...I’m not sure how that would make any sense

 

[anotherwannabe]

Agree - I’m still in my lot of 2k which might explain them working fine across barrels with same math. Are yours mega pointed or something morgan? mine are pointed but not nearly as much as a smk 110 for example

 

[Darkside-Six]

mine seemed to change when i switched lots. i worked up a solid load. always had great chrono numbers and grouped tight all the way out to 500 but once i started on my club matches this year i started missing a lot of shots that i feel i shouldn't have, easy shots from prone with no wind. i normally don't blame the gun and think it is something with me but i've had a lot of second guessing recently which i don't like. started chatting with some other shooters and it's pretty mixed with the 109's/ some have had no issues and others have had alot of inconsistency like i have so i'd rather not worry about it and go back to the 105's which i know work.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Agree - I’m still in my lot of 2k which might explain them working fine across barrels with same math. Are yours mega pointed or something morgan? mine are pointed but not nearly as much as a smk 110 for example

ive never messed with the 110s but they arent as pointed as some 115s dtacs I’ve had in the past...those were almost completely closed...the 109s u can for sure tell are pointed but they have small holes still

I quit using dtac’s years ago for that very reason, some lots were completely closed, next lot you couldn’t even tell they were pointed...and the BC to hit targets showed it