Berger 175 OTM for .308 Win ELR Shooting

[MidRangeCrisis]

I've been out of the game for a while but I'm glad to be back. Big plans here...

One of them is to get into ELR with my .308 and I am meant to understand that the Berger 175 OTM was designed by Bryan Litz with a lot of impetus on trans-sonic stability in mind. I know I have a lot of reading to do but I wanted to start this thread and hopefully garner some lessons learned from those out there making attempts like what I have in mind.

My platform is my Tikka T3 "Multi-Match Rifle" which is a T3 action in an Elisio tube chassis with the following specs:

30" Bartlein .299/.308 1:12" Medium Palma barrel
Chambered with a PTG Bisley 150 Palma reamer
Norma .308 brass with an average volume of 58.2 grains of H2O
Tula Large Rifle Primers
47.7 grains of IMR-4166 yields 2840 fps (according to Quickload...so far has been very good guesses in .308)

I have ordered a small sample of Berger 175s to load up and test but I wanted to know if there are other bullets I should be looking at for this.

 

[ubettcha]

With a 12 the FTR 155's can be better if you can run them hard enough. I'm running the 150 Lehigh @ 3015fps with a trued .515 G1 out to 980yds. I hope to shoot this out far enough to find transonic in a month when I can get back to the range.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

With a 12 the FTR 155's can be better if you can run them hard enough. I'm running the 150 Lehigh @ 3015fps with a trued .515 G1 out to 980yds. I hope to shoot this out far enough to find transonic in a month when I can get back to the range.

I'll have to look at Lehigh bullets again. Missed tgat one. Any thoughts on the Warner or Peregrine equivalents?

 

[ubettcha]

I'll have to look at Lehigh bullets again. Missed tgat one. Any thoughts on the Warner or Peregrine equivalents?

Awesome stuff just about double what the lehigh is in price. The Lehigh in my rifle a 13ish to 12gain tw Rock Creek I have pushed them harder with CFE223 but I have a ton of Rl15 with the same accuracy just not as fast. I have also run the 195tmk in my gun with cfe for great results but it is close to wobbly at 40 degrees. I don't have any more cfe to figure out my drops beyond 650 however the bc has been within .2 mils to there so far. I have pushed this to 2760 and shoot it at 2707 with single digit es. .5 inches at 300yds but it is a full mil left of my regular 168smk load and I think .1 or 2 higher. This is loaded long @ 2.940 and I believe that is the cause of my difference in zero being so drastic. Pretty much everything in the 150-185 range is a few .1ths up or down or to the side. nothing at sub 300yds where I do most of my shooting

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Awesome stuff just about double what the lehigh is in price. The Lehigh in my rifle a 13ish to 12gain tw Rock Creek I have pushed them harder with CFE223 but I have a ton of Rl15 with the same accuracy just not as fast. I have also run the 195tmk in my gun with cfe for great results but it is close to wobbly at 40 degrees. I don't have any more cfe to figure out my drops beyond 650 however the bc has been within .2 mils to there so far. I have pushed this to 2760 and shoot it at 2707 with single digit es. .5 inches at 300yds but it is a full mil left of my regular 168smk load and I think .1 or 2 higher. This is loaded long @ 2.940 and I believe that is the cause of my difference in zero being so drastic. Pretty much everything in the 150-185 range is a few .1ths up or down or to the side. nothing at sub 300yds where I do most of my shooting

Can you point me to the lehigh bullet? I can't find it.

Apparently the 175 OTM was designed for ELR applications. Something about bullet shaped

 

[ubettcha]

.308 caliber, 150gr Match Solid Lead-Free Target Rifle Bullets

Buy .308 caliber, 150gr Match Solid Lead-Free Target Rifle Bullets at Lehigh Defense for $ 43.79. Shop Bullets Online!

www.lehighdefense.com

 

[jbailey]

With a 12 the FTR 155's can be better if you can run them hard enough. I'm running the 150 Lehigh @ 3015fps with a trued .515 G1 out to 980yds. I hope to shoot this out far enough to find transonic in a month when I can get back to the range.

You don't have the twist to shoot the Warner Flatlines. 11twist or better in 30cal, unless you are on top of the Rockies, in which case the 160s might do the job. They are beasts if you can get them going into good stable groups.

With your setup, you might want to try the 185gr Juggs as well. They are outstanding and will give you a bit more wind performance.

 

[ubettcha]

You don't have the twist to shoot the Warner Flatlines. 11twist or better in 30cal, unless you are on top of the Rockies, in which case the 160s might do the job. They are beasts if you can get them going into good stable groups.

With your setup, you might want to try the 185gr Juggs as well. They are outstanding and will give you a bit more wind performance.

I'm all set it is the OP that asked about the flatlines. The TMK's shoot in my rifle if I want to run them. Thx for that info.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

You don't have the twist to shoot the Warner Flatlines. 11twist or better in 30cal, unless you are on top of the Rockies, in which case the 160s might do the job. They are beasts if you can get them going into good stable groups.

With your setup, you might want to try the 185gr Juggs as well. They are outstanding and will give you a bit more wind performance.

I've had mixed results with Juggernauts in the past but I have some coming just in case for my 1:10" application.

Any opinion on the 175 OTM? It seems to be the medicine in my 1:12 according to the math

 

[jbailey]

I'm all set it is the OP that asked about the flatlines. The TMK's shoot in my rifle if I want to run them. Thx for that info.

oops , sorry, yeah, I was answering the OP's question.

@MidRangeCrisis
Negative, I have no experience w/ the 175gr OTMs, so I can't offer any opinion. I too read that they transition well thru sound barrier, so you are probably on the right track. Good luck in any case. Shooting ELR with a 308 is fun and rewarding, truly a great learning experience. I have had Warner Flatlines 198grs from a 308 out a long ways, regularly and fairly easily impacting at over of 1 mile.

 

[918v]

47.7 grains of IMR4166 under 175’s is way way too much.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

47.7 grains of IMR4166 under 175’s is way way too much.

Running them at 2.950" in the Quickload model. Of course I'll dial it i once I have the bullets in hand to measure off of and knock it back at least 10% to start.

What does your experience show with IMR 4166? I've been able to get fairly good results off of an interpolated model. That said, it's a first time using Quickloads model with 4166 data.

 

[918v]

Why would you run them that long? There’s hardly any bullet in the case that way. In my TRG22 they hit the lands at 2.930”.

Did you look at Hodgdon’s data? That’s in a Winchester case with more capacity than Norma. At 47.7grs you’ll eat the bolt.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I took the old 308 out for some ELR shooting today. We shot from 375 my warm up shot all the way out to 1626 which is a far as my scope will dial. It was a great day with the wind at 2mph at max. I am shooting an AI-AE with a 26 in 1-10 twist barrel. The round is as follows;
Bullet 178ELD-X
Primer CCIBR2
Brass Blackhills match
Powder Varget 42.3
AVG FPS 2641
SD 7.9
COAL is 2.86

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

I took the old 308 out for some ELR shooting today. We shot from 375 my warm up shot all the way out to 1626 which is a far as my scope will dial. It was a great day with the wind at 2mph at max. I am shooting an AI-AE with a 26 in 1-10 twist barrel. The round is as follows;
Bullet 178ELD-X
Primer CCIBR2
Brass Blackhills match
Powder Varget 42.3
AVG FPS 2641
SD 7.9
COAL is 2.86

Awesome! Sounds like the wind gods were favoring you.

I ran your load in QL 3.9; calculates at 56,962 psi and 2638 fps. I guess they have the program pretty well dialed in for Varget at least.

Based on the AB application's calculations, it looks like you were trans-sonic starting at about 1200 yards and subsonic after 1300 or so. How did the ELD-X fare for you at the far end of the range?

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Why would you run them that long? There’s hardly any bullet in the case that way. In my TRG22 they hit the lands at 2.930”.

Did you look at Hodgdon’s data? That’s in a Winchester case with more capacity than Norma. At 47.7grs you’ll eat the bolt.

I'll review the published data but unless they ran it well out past 2.80", it's hard to make a reasonable comparison.

I've modeled several variations of OAL from 2.780-2.950" and not really gained much at the top end more than about 40 FPS. That said, it remains to be seen what the bullets will measure out at in my chamber. It's cut for 155 SMK or equivalent Palma bullets loaded long to give as much case capacity as possible. As for cases, I'd have to measure a batch or two again but if memory serves the Normas proved to be very high quality with nearly the same capacity as the Winchester cases. I might be thinking of the 30-06 cases but I recall that the .308 was pretty respectable.

 

[GIXXER2000]

We'll never used Quick Load but from what you said my load looks to be spot on. Yes the wind gods were smiling on us. Today was the 1st day we shot at this location and things went well. This spot is more suited for the .300 on up then close in. There are good sight lines out past 4k. The 178-ELD-X was better then i thought it would be pasted 1200. It stayed right on target al the way out to 1626.

 

[918v]

I'll review the published data but unless they ran it well out past 2.80", it's hard to make a reasonable comparison.

I've modeled several variations of OAL from 2.780-2.950" and not really gained much at the top end more than about 40 FPS. That said, it remains to be seen what the bullets will measure out at in my chamber. It's cut for 155 SMK or equivalent Palma bullets loaded long to give as much case capacity as possible. As for cases, I'd have to measure a batch or two again but if memory serves the Normas proved to be very high quality with nearly the same capacity as the Winchester cases. I might be thinking of the 30-06 cases but I recall that the .308 was pretty respectable.

Norma 308 brass is like current Hornady and Remington capacity-wise. When you’re loading that long and that close to the lands you risk blowing primers.

My experience with 4166 is not great. I bought an 8 pound jug when it first came out and loaded it using Hodgdon’s data in Winchester brass. I did not find it as good as 4064. The accuracy window was small. I think it’s better for lighter bullets, kinda like Ramshot TAC is. Pressure comes on fast. I wouldn’t use it for what you want to do. I would go with CFE223.

I get 2770 FPS with the OTM out of my 26” TRG slow ass barrel and .190” groups. It’s stupid accurate and not all that temperature sensitive, 40-50 FPS over 100 degrees.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Norma 308 brass is like current Hornady and Remington capacity-wise. When you’re loading that long and that close to the lands you risk blowing primers.

My experience with 4166 is not great. I bought an 8 pound jug when it first came out and loaded it using Hodgdon’s data in Winchester brass. I did not find it as good as 4064. The accuracy window was small. I think it’s better for lighter bullets, kinda like Ramshot TAC is. Pressure comes on fast. I wouldn’t use it for what you want to do. I would go with CFE223.

I get 2770 FPS with the OTM out of my 26” TRG slow ass barrel and .190” groups. It’s stupid accurate and not all that temperature sensitive, 40-50 FPS over 100 degrees.

I bought 48 pounds back when I was more able to take Palma shooting seriously and I still have a bunch. Works well enough with 155s ayway. I may just get some CFE223 OR RL-16 for this though.

 

[wvfarrier]

This is a personal experience but i have had much better experience with the Alco 168s over the Lehigh Match.

 

[wvfarrier]

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Norma 308 brass is like current Hornady and Remington capacity-wise. When you’re loading that long and that close to the lands you risk blowing primers.

My experience with 4166 is not great. I bought an 8 pound jug when it first came out and loaded it using Hodgdon’s data in Winchester brass. I did not find it as good as 4064. The accuracy window was small. I think it’s better for lighter bullets, kinda like Ramshot TAC is. Pressure comes on fast. I wouldn’t use it for what you want to do. I would go with CFE223.

I get 2770 FPS with the OTM out of my 26” TRG slow ass barrel and .190” groups. It’s stupid accurate and not all that temperature sensitive, 40-50 FPS over 100 degrees.

I ran the numbers in QL for the CFE223...that is some snazzy stuff! I was able to get my hands on a pound to test with and a box of 100 Berger 175 OTM as well.

With a load density at 102% I'm showing very high ballistic efficiency and total powder burn in the 30" barrel with ~2935 fps; does that seem right to you?

 

[FCS]

Berger 175 Long Range Target / LRBT is 10 gr lighter version of the 185 Juggernaut.
185 would be my suggestion but if not, then the 175 LRT. 175 OTM is very tractable, we’ll behaved bullet but not my first choice for 1000 yd or farther shooting.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Berger 175 Long Range Target / LRBT is 10 gr lighter version of the 185 Juggernaut.
185 would be my suggestion but if not, then the 175 LRT. 175 OTM is very tractable, we’ll behaved bullet but not my first choice for 1000 yd or farther shooting.

Thanks man that's awesome insight. I've had mixed results with the 185 Juggernaut but I am going to give it another try. I tend to shoot at very low altitude and I think I may not be getting all the benefits of the 185 down here. In any case, I'll give the 175 LRBT a go as well as the OTM.

 

[Xcount]

Have you contacted Berger? They have a very responsive tech support. I think that most of the trans-sonic effects are from the boattail design. I'm just another guy on the internet though, call Berger.

 

[MidRangeCrisis]

Have you contacted Berger? They have a very responsive tech support. I think that most of the trans-sonic effects are from the boattail design. I'm just another guy on the internet though, call Berger.

I have. The basic answer was "Bryan Litz designed the 175 OTM for transonic stability. It should be well behaved." I read up on the characteristics that were deemed desirable fir that behavior though and the 175 LRBT might have an edge in ghat department with it's shorter boat tail.