Do you guys measure your bullets from lot to lot? I have been shooting the 185gr Hybrids with great results but im just about out of bullets from my original purchase. I picked up another 4 boxes at a local place and noticed they looked a tad bit different than the original lot I had so I measured them. The original lot measured .668 and the new lot measured .716 This is from the base to the ogive. That seems like a big difference to me so I called Berger this week and their reply was that it was within tolorance and that next time I purchase bullets purchase them in bulk so that I have all the same lot number. Needless to say I'm not too happy with this as I doubt the load I have worked up will be the same with these new bullets. I am headed to the range in the morning to find out. I can understand a few thousands difference but this seems excessive to me. What do you guys think?
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Berger Bullets lot to lot
- Thread starter Down South
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Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Yep, found out the same thing, and mine were match target bullets! Fourtunitly they grouped the same as I seat from the Ogive. You would think they woud have tighter tolerances!
Yep, found out the same thing, and mine were match target bullets! Fourtunitly they grouped the same as I seat from the Ogive. You would think they woud have tighter tolerances!
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg
Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
+ 1 to Greg's post.
Buy in bulk to get 'em all from the same lot number, and if the bullets you want are only available in 100 count boxes request the supplier to send all the same lot number. If they won't do it, buy elsewhere.
Paul
+ 1 to Greg's post.
Buy in bulk to get 'em all from the same lot number, and if the bullets you want are only available in 100 count boxes request the supplier to send all the same lot number. If they won't do it, buy elsewhere.
Paul
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg</div></div>
Well, I hope you're right cause I hate to have to start tweaking my load because of a different batch of bullets. You can actually see the difference in the two bullets when looking closely at them, the newer lot has a more rounded appearance almost like a Sierra Match King design. I just find that kinda strange that there would be that much difference between lots. I will be shooting groups bright and early in the morning through the chrono with my exact same powder charge/seating depth so we'll see what happens. Thanks for the reply.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg</div></div>
Well, I hope you're right cause I hate to have to start tweaking my load because of a different batch of bullets. You can actually see the difference in the two bullets when looking closely at them, the newer lot has a more rounded appearance almost like a Sierra Match King design. I just find that kinda strange that there would be that much difference between lots. I will be shooting groups bright and early in the morning through the chrono with my exact same powder charge/seating depth so we'll see what happens. Thanks for the reply.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
When I relate to production standards, I refer to 'within lot' standards. All components exhibit lot-to-lot variances. Production machinery gets replaced and/or refurbished, and who knows what production time difference actually exists between two boxes side by side on a shelf, with different lot numbers.
Nobody can make pronouncements that two different packages of any handloading component will perform identically. I can practically guarantee you that different lots essentially consititute different components. Even the handloading manuals will allude to this.
All I'm telling you is that you should expect no consequential differences between components within a lot, and not to be surprised if there are differences between lots.
Nobody can promise you any better.
Advice: buy substantial quantities, and do load confirmation testing when changing lots of any component before embarking on large quantity production. I don't like having to do this any more than you, but it is a basic fact of handloading life.
For my part, I seldom make up more ammo than I can I will need for specific short term usage needs.
I don't like to store handloads, necks bond and disrupt neck tension consistency. I will either shoot the ammo, or pull it down with a collet puller before it gets old.
I have even encountered bonded necks on ammo that's as new as a month old. The pull force is seriously greater, and I can find patches of brass adhering to the copper jackets.
Greg
When I relate to production standards, I refer to 'within lot' standards. All components exhibit lot-to-lot variances. Production machinery gets replaced and/or refurbished, and who knows what production time difference actually exists between two boxes side by side on a shelf, with different lot numbers.
Nobody can make pronouncements that two different packages of any handloading component will perform identically. I can practically guarantee you that different lots essentially consititute different components. Even the handloading manuals will allude to this.
All I'm telling you is that you should expect no consequential differences between components within a lot, and not to be surprised if there are differences between lots.
Nobody can promise you any better.
Advice: buy substantial quantities, and do load confirmation testing when changing lots of any component before embarking on large quantity production. I don't like having to do this any more than you, but it is a basic fact of handloading life.
For my part, I seldom make up more ammo than I can I will need for specific short term usage needs.
I don't like to store handloads, necks bond and disrupt neck tension consistency. I will either shoot the ammo, or pull it down with a collet puller before it gets old.
I have even encountered bonded necks on ammo that's as new as a month old. The pull force is seriously greater, and I can find patches of brass adhering to the copper jackets.
Greg
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Well, the message is that you probably can't tell the difference on paper because your equipment isn't up to the laboratory standards of the manufacturer. Measuring the length of bullets is probably unnecessary. I don't do it, nor do I weigh them. But, on the other hand, I'm into live targets, not paper.
The problem with buying in bulk is that you (usually) start with a hundred, like what you see and buy more in bulk, and those are going to be different than what you tested. Who wants to buy a thousand bullets and find out that your rifle doesn't like them? At some point we have to trust what it says on the box and assume they are doing their quality control for the customer.
The more anal among us will weigh and sort and measure and sort and believe they have accomplished something. But. Question: how is a tenth of a grain, or ten thousandths of an inch in length going to affect your scores as much as a twenty degree change in wind direction? Gotta get real, at 1k.
I'm impressed that Greg pulls bullets if they have sat for a month. Way more deep, than I. I shoot stuff from last year and don't notice the difference. Not being critical. But, on the other hand, I am always suspicious of pulled bullets. BB
Well, the message is that you probably can't tell the difference on paper because your equipment isn't up to the laboratory standards of the manufacturer. Measuring the length of bullets is probably unnecessary. I don't do it, nor do I weigh them. But, on the other hand, I'm into live targets, not paper.
The problem with buying in bulk is that you (usually) start with a hundred, like what you see and buy more in bulk, and those are going to be different than what you tested. Who wants to buy a thousand bullets and find out that your rifle doesn't like them? At some point we have to trust what it says on the box and assume they are doing their quality control for the customer.
The more anal among us will weigh and sort and measure and sort and believe they have accomplished something. But. Question: how is a tenth of a grain, or ten thousandths of an inch in length going to affect your scores as much as a twenty degree change in wind direction? Gotta get real, at 1k.
I'm impressed that Greg pulls bullets if they have sat for a month. Way more deep, than I. I shoot stuff from last year and don't notice the difference. Not being critical. But, on the other hand, I am always suspicious of pulled bullets. BB
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
That is a lot bigger difference than I have ever seen in a lot! I will definitely start paying closer attention to that!
That is a lot bigger difference than I have ever seen in a lot! I will definitely start paying closer attention to that!
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg </div></div>
hard to argue with logic. Well said, people need to stop worrying about little thing at the loading bench until groups open up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg </div></div>
hard to argue with logic. Well said, people need to stop worrying about little thing at the loading bench until groups open up.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg </div></div>
This is very well said. For Tac Match shooing I've noticed no performance on target +/- .1 on target, new or fired brass, or any amount or prep work. Have a gun built by someone that know what they are doing and enjoy shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their response is appropriate.
Among the thousands of shooters and handloaders who frequent this site, I'd imagine there are maybe a single handful whose equipment and skills can perform well enough to actually segregate the dimensional differences that exist within Berger's (and nearly every other bullet maker's) production standards, based on what one can see on an actual target. For the rest of us, variances within those limits have no effective importance.
Despite this simple reality, customers demand perfection; in a real world where such perfection buys nothing more than what they already hold in their hands, and which would cost them so much more that none of us could afford to shoot such paragons of precision.
It's not Berger's quality standards that cause our accuracy problems. Such problems arise from the ways in which we use those bullets.
Greg </div></div>
This is very well said. For Tac Match shooing I've noticed no performance on target +/- .1 on target, new or fired brass, or any amount or prep work. Have a gun built by someone that know what they are doing and enjoy shooting.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Found the same thing early on.... Like you I called tham and also talked to Bryan. one felt what i had found was off base However the reply was that it was with in there specs.
For me to fix the problem I purchesed a large amount of the same lot. When its gone if I find a big change I will just get Sierras for that system.
Just to ask what is the weight specs for Berger bullets? I am asking because Sierra holds +-.3
Found the same thing early on.... Like you I called tham and also talked to Bryan. one felt what i had found was off base However the reply was that it was with in there specs.
For me to fix the problem I purchesed a large amount of the same lot. When its gone if I find a big change I will just get Sierras for that system.
Just to ask what is the weight specs for Berger bullets? I am asking because Sierra holds +-.3
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
When I bought the RCBS collet puller die and collets, I put it to use on some older ammo I had. I wanted to re-employ the components using updated load data.
I weas flatly amazed by the large variances in pull force required. Closer examination revealed a 'telltale' yellow' patch of brass bonded onto the offending bullet juckets. Not all, not even a lot, but clearly enough to explain a goodly proportion of those 'unexplained flyers' that were confusing hell out of me.
Piqued by now, I started disassembling newer batches of stored ammo. The 'yellow' even appeared in stuff that was only a month old; fewer, but still definitely there.
At that point, I tore it all down and started fresh.
I decided right then and there that the only way to assure good, reliably and consistently accurate ammo from a dependable supply was to keep the components separate and to only build up what batches I knew I had a specific use for in a foreseeable future.
Tearing down unused ammo certainly did seem excessively anal, especially for me; but the evidence strongly suggested there was a genuine benefit.
I'm an old retired guy, and time lies heavy in my hands. In my case, time is not so much of a luxury as it is a challenge; use it or lose it. There isn't a whole lot more of it being made (for me, anyway) these days.
YMMV!
Greg
When I bought the RCBS collet puller die and collets, I put it to use on some older ammo I had. I wanted to re-employ the components using updated load data.
I weas flatly amazed by the large variances in pull force required. Closer examination revealed a 'telltale' yellow' patch of brass bonded onto the offending bullet juckets. Not all, not even a lot, but clearly enough to explain a goodly proportion of those 'unexplained flyers' that were confusing hell out of me.
Piqued by now, I started disassembling newer batches of stored ammo. The 'yellow' even appeared in stuff that was only a month old; fewer, but still definitely there.
At that point, I tore it all down and started fresh.
I decided right then and there that the only way to assure good, reliably and consistently accurate ammo from a dependable supply was to keep the components separate and to only build up what batches I knew I had a specific use for in a foreseeable future.
Tearing down unused ammo certainly did seem excessively anal, especially for me; but the evidence strongly suggested there was a genuine benefit.
I'm an old retired guy, and time lies heavy in my hands. In my case, time is not so much of a luxury as it is a challenge; use it or lose it. There isn't a whole lot more of it being made (for me, anyway) these days.
YMMV!
Greg
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Following this up, it appears that this phenomenon is limited to my own handloads, and does not afflict commercially obtained ammo. For instance, I recently pulled down some Tula 1943 7.62x54R Light Ball ammo, and there was zero evidence of any bonding activity.
I suspect that the process involves some sort of electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and that some sort of dielectric barrier coating could remove this impediment.
Greg
Following this up, it appears that this phenomenon is limited to my own handloads, and does not afflict commercially obtained ammo. For instance, I recently pulled down some Tula 1943 7.62x54R Light Ball ammo, and there was zero evidence of any bonding activity.
I suspect that the process involves some sort of electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and that some sort of dielectric barrier coating could remove this impediment.
Greg
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Well, I got out to the range yesterday to test loads with bullets from the old lot and new lot. I shot at 300 yards first(prone with Sinclair Gen 3 bipod) before the wind kicked up with my new lot of bullets (5 shots) and the group measured 1.15 inch CTC. I then shot another group with my original lot of bullets and that group measured .967 CTC with 4 of the bullets measuring half inch. Then I went to the 100 yard line and set up the chronograph and shot several groups (on bench with Sinclair Gen 3 bipod) with the old and new lot. 1st group was shot with my old lot and measured .365 Next group was shot with new lot and measured .702 All of the groups shot so far where 47.6 gr 2000MR which is my normal load. I then shot another group with the new lot with a powder charge of 47.5 gr to see what would happen, that group measured 1.021. I then went up to 47.7 gr. with new lot to see what would happen and that group measured .330 Conclusion, to get the same accuracy/ES as my original load with the original lot of bullets I had to bump the charge up a tenth of a grain. Definately didn't shoot as well as original lot with my original load. All groups were 5 shots, Lapua once fired brass,CCI BR2 primers,bullet jammed in lands, 185gr Berger Target Hybrids shot out of my custom 308 with 28 inch 11 twist Krieger barrel. Wind early when shooting 300 yard groups was 5 mph. Wind when shooting 100 yard groups was 8-12 mph. Temp was 80 early and about 85 when I shot the 100 yard groups. The load shot with 47.7 gr. and new lot of bullets chronographed at 2836 ftps. avg. for 5 shots. I'm gonna shoot this load at 600 yard FTR match next weekend so we'll see how she holds up.
Well, I got out to the range yesterday to test loads with bullets from the old lot and new lot. I shot at 300 yards first(prone with Sinclair Gen 3 bipod) before the wind kicked up with my new lot of bullets (5 shots) and the group measured 1.15 inch CTC. I then shot another group with my original lot of bullets and that group measured .967 CTC with 4 of the bullets measuring half inch. Then I went to the 100 yard line and set up the chronograph and shot several groups (on bench with Sinclair Gen 3 bipod) with the old and new lot. 1st group was shot with my old lot and measured .365 Next group was shot with new lot and measured .702 All of the groups shot so far where 47.6 gr 2000MR which is my normal load. I then shot another group with the new lot with a powder charge of 47.5 gr to see what would happen, that group measured 1.021. I then went up to 47.7 gr. with new lot to see what would happen and that group measured .330 Conclusion, to get the same accuracy/ES as my original load with the original lot of bullets I had to bump the charge up a tenth of a grain. Definately didn't shoot as well as original lot with my original load. All groups were 5 shots, Lapua once fired brass,CCI BR2 primers,bullet jammed in lands, 185gr Berger Target Hybrids shot out of my custom 308 with 28 inch 11 twist Krieger barrel. Wind early when shooting 300 yard groups was 5 mph. Wind when shooting 100 yard groups was 8-12 mph. Temp was 80 early and about 85 when I shot the 100 yard groups. The load shot with 47.7 gr. and new lot of bullets chronographed at 2836 ftps. avg. for 5 shots. I'm gonna shoot this load at 600 yard FTR match next weekend so we'll see how she holds up.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
I had the same problem with sierra bullets. I was loading 142 smks and switched to a new box of 100 when i measured the oal it was totally different. You could actually hold the bullets along side of one another and see the ogive was different. I called sierra and the guy was a complete dick about it claiming they change from lot to lot. I told him it was the same lot of bullets and he did not say anything. The groups did not change when shooting but when looking at the bullets side by side you would of thought they were totally different which surprised me. That sucks every time you get different bullets that are the same you have to remeasure with you oal tool for your rifle to see were the lands are.
I had the same problem with sierra bullets. I was loading 142 smks and switched to a new box of 100 when i measured the oal it was totally different. You could actually hold the bullets along side of one another and see the ogive was different. I called sierra and the guy was a complete dick about it claiming they change from lot to lot. I told him it was the same lot of bullets and he did not say anything. The groups did not change when shooting but when looking at the bullets side by side you would of thought they were totally different which surprised me. That sucks every time you get different bullets that are the same you have to remeasure with you oal tool for your rifle to see were the lands are.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Following this up, it appears that this phenomenon is limited to my own handloads, and does not afflict commercially obtained ammo. For instance, I recently pulled down some Tula 1943 7.62x54R Light Ball ammo, and there was zero evidence of any bonding activity.
I suspect that the process involves some sort of electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and that some sort of dielectric barrier coating could remove this impediment.
Greg </div></div>
Interesting.
I have pulled some WWII surplus with an asphaltum seal on the bullet. They came out like you might expect, pulling something glued, but I saw no evidence of bonding metal to metal.
My question is; what are you doing to suspect this: "electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and sort of dielectric barrier"?
Is it ultrasonic or stainless steel with detergent washing? I'm just wondering because I only rarely pull bullets and then, not many. But, I don't see any of what you report. BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Following this up, it appears that this phenomenon is limited to my own handloads, and does not afflict commercially obtained ammo. For instance, I recently pulled down some Tula 1943 7.62x54R Light Ball ammo, and there was zero evidence of any bonding activity.
I suspect that the process involves some sort of electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and that some sort of dielectric barrier coating could remove this impediment.
Greg </div></div>
Interesting.
I have pulled some WWII surplus with an asphaltum seal on the bullet. They came out like you might expect, pulling something glued, but I saw no evidence of bonding metal to metal.
My question is; what are you doing to suspect this: "electrochemical activity (i.e. galvanic ion transfer), and sort of dielectric barrier"?
Is it ultrasonic or stainless steel with detergent washing? I'm just wondering because I only rarely pull bullets and then, not many. But, I don't see any of what you report. BB
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
It's not what I'm doing now, it's what I'm seeing now and comparing to what I did a long time ago.
When I was 19, I worked as a Railway Electrician for the Pennsylvania Railroad. We built and maintained the overhead electrical system that powered huge trains. It was made from a few very basic shapes of brass, bronze, and copper. Voltages ranging from 11,000V to 66,000V ran through the connections. We even made our own nuts and bolts out of bronze and brass.
The metallic composition of the materials was critical.
Small differences in the proportions of copper, etc., in the adjacently joined materials would result in large differences in the degree of bimetallic (galvanic) corrosion that ocurred when enough amps to run a train were run through the junctions between the conducting parts. The limiting factor in the tonnages/lengths of trains had a lot less to do with the horsepower of the locomotives than it had with the amperage capacity of the overhead wire.
When we replaced sections and parts, the same color transfers between parts occurred that I am also seeing on the bullets I find that have bonded together with the brass case necks.
Electrical current is always produced when two different conductive metals are contacted in the presence of moisture. That current flow always results in ion transfer. How much/how fast is just a question of differential voltage. Whether it's a quarter volt or a quarter million volts; it's still happening, either way. It can be prevented by means of a dialectic barrier, i.e. insulation. The less the volts, the less barrier is needed, and vice-versa.
Trick question: how much voltage does an electron have? None, voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two electrons. Or is it? Welcome to Quantum Mechanics 101.
The Russian ammo is different in that A) there is no asphaltum, and B) the cases are formed from steel and copper washed.
Greg
It's not what I'm doing now, it's what I'm seeing now and comparing to what I did a long time ago.
When I was 19, I worked as a Railway Electrician for the Pennsylvania Railroad. We built and maintained the overhead electrical system that powered huge trains. It was made from a few very basic shapes of brass, bronze, and copper. Voltages ranging from 11,000V to 66,000V ran through the connections. We even made our own nuts and bolts out of bronze and brass.
The metallic composition of the materials was critical.
Small differences in the proportions of copper, etc., in the adjacently joined materials would result in large differences in the degree of bimetallic (galvanic) corrosion that ocurred when enough amps to run a train were run through the junctions between the conducting parts. The limiting factor in the tonnages/lengths of trains had a lot less to do with the horsepower of the locomotives than it had with the amperage capacity of the overhead wire.
When we replaced sections and parts, the same color transfers between parts occurred that I am also seeing on the bullets I find that have bonded together with the brass case necks.
Electrical current is always produced when two different conductive metals are contacted in the presence of moisture. That current flow always results in ion transfer. How much/how fast is just a question of differential voltage. Whether it's a quarter volt or a quarter million volts; it's still happening, either way. It can be prevented by means of a dialectic barrier, i.e. insulation. The less the volts, the less barrier is needed, and vice-versa.
Trick question: how much voltage does an electron have? None, voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two electrons. Or is it? Welcome to Quantum Mechanics 101.
The Russian ammo is different in that A) there is no asphaltum, and B) the cases are formed from steel and copper washed.
Greg
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load?
So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load?
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Down South</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load? </div></div>
What I think is...not enough data. You do understand the "aggregate" concept, right?
Do you really think that you can hold that close, and where are you going to buy the perfect bullets? Maybe you can buy several thousand of those snowflakes and find a few that seem more better? Good luck. BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Down South</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load? </div></div>
What I think is...not enough data. You do understand the "aggregate" concept, right?
Do you really think that you can hold that close, and where are you going to buy the perfect bullets? Maybe you can buy several thousand of those snowflakes and find a few that seem more better? Good luck. BB
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
A wise man once told me "we don't shoot good enough to notice the micro details".
A wise man once told me "we don't shoot good enough to notice the micro details".
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Down South</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load? </div></div>
What I think is...not enough data. You do understand the "aggregate" concept, right?
Do you really think that you can hold that close, and where are you going to buy the perfect bullets? Maybe you can buy several thousand of those snowflakes and find a few that seem more better? Good luck. BB</div></div>
You are more than welcome to drive on down and shoot the gun yourself with both lots of bullets and see the difference for yourself. I shoot alot and can damn sure tell the difference between the lots with the same load so like I said come on down and i'll be more than happy to take you to the range and you can see for yourself as you obviously think im wrong. I know there are no perfect bullets and im perfectly happy with the bullets from the same lot as they all measure within .001 and .002 but damn near .050 between lots is a big difference when it changes the shape of the bullet where you can see the difference by just glancing at them. I've bought several different lots of bullets and never seen that much variations. I was thinking they might have packaged a different bullet in a Hybrid box by mistake. All I know is that the groups opened up when shooting the new batch with the same load but after bumping the charge up they tightened back up. Problem solved.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Down South</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what do you guys think of the these results between the two lots of bullets now that I have tested them both and there is definately a difference in group size with the same powder charge/original load? </div></div>
What I think is...not enough data. You do understand the "aggregate" concept, right?
Do you really think that you can hold that close, and where are you going to buy the perfect bullets? Maybe you can buy several thousand of those snowflakes and find a few that seem more better? Good luck. BB</div></div>
You are more than welcome to drive on down and shoot the gun yourself with both lots of bullets and see the difference for yourself. I shoot alot and can damn sure tell the difference between the lots with the same load so like I said come on down and i'll be more than happy to take you to the range and you can see for yourself as you obviously think im wrong. I know there are no perfect bullets and im perfectly happy with the bullets from the same lot as they all measure within .001 and .002 but damn near .050 between lots is a big difference when it changes the shape of the bullet where you can see the difference by just glancing at them. I've bought several different lots of bullets and never seen that much variations. I was thinking they might have packaged a different bullet in a Hybrid box by mistake. All I know is that the groups opened up when shooting the new batch with the same load but after bumping the charge up they tightened back up. Problem solved.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
I didn't say you were wrong. I had something to say, but that wasn't the message. BB
I didn't say you were wrong. I had something to say, but that wasn't the message. BB
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
.
I think it is not impossible that you get another type of Berger bullet mixed with the Hybrid.
Recently I bought several boxes of Hybrids 6mm 105gr. and on two boxes (same lot #2464) I found twelve <span style="font-weight: bold">6,5mm </span>bullets inside (6 in each box)!
It only happened on this lot, but it happened, so it is not impossible to have other 185gr. mixed.
And I really think that one group (5 shots) says very little about the accuracy load potential (or inaccuracy).
LRCampos.
.
I think it is not impossible that you get another type of Berger bullet mixed with the Hybrid.
Recently I bought several boxes of Hybrids 6mm 105gr. and on two boxes (same lot #2464) I found twelve <span style="font-weight: bold">6,5mm </span>bullets inside (6 in each box)!
It only happened on this lot, but it happened, so it is not impossible to have other 185gr. mixed.
And I really think that one group (5 shots) says very little about the accuracy load potential (or inaccuracy).
LRCampos.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5"
DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5"
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
I picked up some 130VLD Hunting as I'm working up loads for my new 6.5x47 Lapua. I measured 10 out each box or lot and took the averages. Here's how they stacked up.
OAL 1.379, Ogive .722 from a box of 500
OAL 1.325, Ogive .648 form four 100 round boxes same lot number.
OAL 1.378, Ogive .708 from a box of 100 different lot number.
I'm working out the four boxes with the same lot number right now, When I find the load I'm going to go with I'll test some out of the 500 count box to see how it performs, Should be interesting for sure.
I picked up some 130VLD Hunting as I'm working up loads for my new 6.5x47 Lapua. I measured 10 out each box or lot and took the averages. Here's how they stacked up.
OAL 1.379, Ogive .722 from a box of 500
OAL 1.325, Ogive .648 form four 100 round boxes same lot number.
OAL 1.378, Ogive .708 from a box of 100 different lot number.
I'm working out the four boxes with the same lot number right now, When I find the load I'm going to go with I'll test some out of the 500 count box to see how it performs, Should be interesting for sure.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
Downsouth is gitting the same printing that I am. they are a PITA I hope Berger gets this under control.
Downsouth is gitting the same printing that I am. they are a PITA I hope Berger gets this under control.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5" </div></div>
Listen, no disrespect, but what you are saying and your support for your friend is not how it works.
There are so many factors that go into 5 shots fired down range on paper that the expression, "lucky group" is perfectly reasonable.
In most benchrest competition, you won't win much with a lucky group. Rather, the aggregate is what counts, five shots times maybe 10 groups or so. Don't think every group will measure .500", there will be a range between .300" and .600" as an example, but a single five shot group is not representative of the potential, shooter and rifle. Hope that explains my comment when I say..."not enough data"? BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5" </div></div>
Listen, no disrespect, but what you are saying and your support for your friend is not how it works.
There are so many factors that go into 5 shots fired down range on paper that the expression, "lucky group" is perfectly reasonable.
In most benchrest competition, you won't win much with a lucky group. Rather, the aggregate is what counts, five shots times maybe 10 groups or so. Don't think every group will measure .500", there will be a range between .300" and .600" as an example, but a single five shot group is not representative of the potential, shooter and rifle. Hope that explains my comment when I say..."not enough data"? BB
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5" </div></div>
Listen, no disrespect, but what you are saying and your support for your friend is not how it works.
There are so many factors that go into 5 shots fired down range on paper that the expression, "lucky group" is perfectly reasonable.
In most benchrest competition, you won't win much with a lucky group. Rather, the aggregate is what counts, five shots times maybe 10 groups or so. Don't think every group will measure .500", there will be a range between .300" and .600" as an example, but a single five shot group is not representative of the potential, shooter and rifle. Hope that explains my comment when I say..."not enough data"? BB</div></div>
BB, the reason Aimsmall said what he said was because he knows that I shoot this particular rifle every weekend and the rifle consistantly shoots low .2's up to mid .3's (5 shot) groups at 100 yards with my match load. If a .6 or larger group is shot with this rifle with this load that is considered terrible in my eyes for this particular gun. Everything I've run through it shoots. I shot a 5 shot group that measured .093 with 168 sierra match kings (FGMM) straight off the shelf. Its the best shooting rifle I have and one of the best shooting rifles i've seen besides a bonafide bench rest gun. I have shot a ton of 5 and 10 shot groups with it. I totally understand what you are saying about shooting only one or two 5 shot groups isn't enough to fully see whats what but I guess I didn't explain myself like I should have. I have been running 50-100 rounds a week through it so many many 5 shot groups have been put on paper with it. Sorry for the confusion.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DownSouth is the real deal. I can vouch for him. You say 5 shots isn't enough data. Well what the hell is? If he replicates the same reloading technique time after time..... My guess is his 5 would indicate what the other 95 are going to do. And DownSouth has been testing these extensively. Not just "5" </div></div>
Listen, no disrespect, but what you are saying and your support for your friend is not how it works.
There are so many factors that go into 5 shots fired down range on paper that the expression, "lucky group" is perfectly reasonable.
In most benchrest competition, you won't win much with a lucky group. Rather, the aggregate is what counts, five shots times maybe 10 groups or so. Don't think every group will measure .500", there will be a range between .300" and .600" as an example, but a single five shot group is not representative of the potential, shooter and rifle. Hope that explains my comment when I say..."not enough data"? BB</div></div>
BB, the reason Aimsmall said what he said was because he knows that I shoot this particular rifle every weekend and the rifle consistantly shoots low .2's up to mid .3's (5 shot) groups at 100 yards with my match load. If a .6 or larger group is shot with this rifle with this load that is considered terrible in my eyes for this particular gun. Everything I've run through it shoots. I shot a 5 shot group that measured .093 with 168 sierra match kings (FGMM) straight off the shelf. Its the best shooting rifle I have and one of the best shooting rifles i've seen besides a bonafide bench rest gun. I have shot a ton of 5 and 10 shot groups with it. I totally understand what you are saying about shooting only one or two 5 shot groups isn't enough to fully see whats what but I guess I didn't explain myself like I should have. I have been running 50-100 rounds a week through it so many many 5 shot groups have been put on paper with it. Sorry for the confusion.
Re: Berger Bullets lot to lot
I have not measured my burger bullets but I bought 4000 rounds of the VLD that I shoot and havent had any consistency within the lot. But, I suspect that when I finish with this lot I will have to rebuild the load. I do the same bulk purchasing with primers, brass, and powder precisely because I dont want to have to do any more load development than necessary. In fact i have recently had to tweak seating depth because of barrel wear. I have always been told that when changing lots of any parts of your loads you need to re-check . I think this is smart besides my limited experience that has proven it out.
I have not measured my burger bullets but I bought 4000 rounds of the VLD that I shoot and havent had any consistency within the lot. But, I suspect that when I finish with this lot I will have to rebuild the load. I do the same bulk purchasing with primers, brass, and powder precisely because I dont want to have to do any more load development than necessary. In fact i have recently had to tweak seating depth because of barrel wear. I have always been told that when changing lots of any parts of your loads you need to re-check . I think this is smart besides my limited experience that has proven it out.
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