Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have basic sets of Lee and RCBS that I use for all my loading needs. I was ordering some more stuff today and ran across a few sets that claim to reduce or eliminate the working of the neck when sizing.

One set is the RCBS X-Die 2-Die Set 223 Remington.
Another die is the Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Full Length Sizer Die 223 Remington.
And then there are the various bushing dies.

I was wondering which set of dies is the best for longevity of brass? It doesn't have to be any of these, it can be any set, I am just wondering if this is possible?

I know annealing will help with case life and I plan on starting soon but is there any way to lengthen the brass life without annealing?

I have neck sizing dies and have used them in the past but don't like the fact I can only use them in one gun. I mostly load for my 223 bolt gun and FL size in case I want to fire the loads in my AR. I load it to an OAL of 2.43 because that is what my bolt gun shoots the best. If I want to fire from my AR I just seat the bullet to the proper depth and fire away. I have done this on numerous occasions without any issues. I like the versatility of doing it this way but after about 4 loadings the case necks start splitting upon firing.

Thanks
Dolomite

 

[Sig685]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

I find that using bushing dies with the appropriate bushing and no expander ball allows my brass to be reloaded many times without the necks splitting. Furthermore, I use full length small base dies and I find these dies do not affect brass life.

The bushing dies have the virtue of only squeezing the neck back down to the desired diameter whereas regular dies will first squeeze the neck down more than it needs to be and will then expand the neck back to minimum diameter with the expander ball. I believe this needless overwork of the neck is what may be causing your necks to split after only 4 firings.

In my case, loose primer pockets is what controls the life of my brass, I have yet to see a split neck using bushing dies.

 

[918v]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

Don't buy sets. Get a Body die and a collet neck die. That way you don't have to worry about neck wall thickess and you work the brass the least.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

It's an age old rivalry between the bushing folks and the Collet folks. I agree with Sig685, even after using a Collet for years.
They both work but I prefer the bushing dies for low maintenance and ease of adjustment via the interchangeable collets.

I never split a neck with a bushing either......and have run batches of my 308 Lapua brass past 50 reloads with the bushing die. If I am overworking them, they sure aren't showing it.
This with a fairly large necked chamber causing me to size from .343-.344 down to .335-.336 in a single step.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

If it's been properly FL or neck resized in common dies, most brass will fail from split necks. Annealing extends case life but can't expend it forever. And it matters not if the split necks were FL or neck sized in any brand of conventional dies.

Two reasons for the popularity of Lee's collet neck dies; 1) it tends to produce straighter necks than normal and 2) it works the necks less than any conventional dies. There is no need for any "adjustment" since the neck inside diameter is controlled by the mandrel so it's worked an absolute minimum. Any other method works the cases from the outside and that means any neck thickness varitation HAS to affect the ID.

Bushings work good in extra tight BR chambers when the case necks are turned thinnner and ot a consistant thickness. Turning necks to uniform them only makes an already sloppy fit in a SAAMI chamber worse. Thus, I avoid bushing dies and use the Lee Collet neck dies.

Whatever floats your boat... ??

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

Anyone have Lee collet dies crap out on them? The last batch of 308 I did with mine had 15-20 out of 200 where the collet seized and the case body/shoulder got donutted. Thoughts?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

I have used them since they came out, have no idea of what you mean by "seized" OR "donutted"! Better definitions maybe?

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

The only collet dies I can find are for neck sizing only. I was looking for something that FL sizes.

I rarely shoot my AR and shoot my bolt gun a lot more so maybe I just need to load enough for my AR for now then just neck size for the gun I shoot the most.

Thanks
Dolomite

 

[Rafael]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

Redding "S" full length die and the proper bushing is how I do just what you are talking about.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have Lee collet dies crap out on them? The last batch of 308 I did with mine had 15-20 out of 200 where the collet seized and the case body/shoulder got donutted. Thoughts? </div></div>

The collet is siezing up in the forcing cone.
Take the die apart and lube between these two components.
The collet/cone can become galled if not kept lubed, and may require polishing to get them working well again.
There is a huge amount of friction between these two components and lube is required.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have Lee collet dies crap out on them? The last batch of 308 I did with mine had 15-20 out of 200 where the collet seized and the case body/shoulder got donutted. Thoughts? </div></div>

The collet is siezing up in the forcing cone.
Take the die apart and lube between these two components.
The collet/cone can become galled if not kept lubed, and may require polishing to get them working well again.
There is a huge amount of friction between these two components and lube is required. </div></div>

Thanks Raf. I was taking them apart and cleaning then lubing with a little sizing lube, but it kept happening. I guess I'll take it apart and polish.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used them since they came out, have no idea of what you mean by "seized" OR "donutted"! Better definitions maybe? </div></div>
Rafael covered the siezing part, by "donutting" I mean the neck/shoulder is being forced down into the case body, causing an enlarged ring rihjt at the case body/shoulder angle, rendering the brass useless (sorry, I thought "donut" was a pretty universal reloading term meaning an enlarged ring of brass).

 

[Rafael]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

No problem!
The latter is caused by the collet being jammed(galled)up in the forcing cone. This leaves the collet closed and the necks just get jammed against the bottom of the collet.

I used a collet die for years and many thousands of rounds.
The maintenance factor is just one of the reasons I prefer bushing dies. Sure, one can keep them working fine, but my current dies require no such maintenance and will not be destroyed or damaged by anything I do to them.

 

[Country]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have Lee collet dies crap out on them? The last batch of 308 I did with mine had 15-20 out of 200 where the collet seized and the case body/shoulder got donutted. Thoughts? </div></div>
My thought is you are not using it right.
I would say that you need to clean the die , grease the collet taper . Then adjust it properly to only use a slight amount of force . It only takes a slight lean on the press handle to size .
For a collet die to work well it needs a compound leverage press which goes over center . This helps find the sweet spot.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

The main thing about dies is setting them up correctly. I have set dies by every major manufacturer to do as well as the other. SOME ARE easier to use and easier to change setups. But it CAN be done with an economy set. When the dies aren't set correctly the brass gets overworked and a case head is going to seperate at some point. But hopefully you'll get loose necks first meaning the brass has been used several times and either needs annealed again or get a bushing die.

If the rifle and componets are capable of 1 moa, you CAN use a cheap set of dies to make 1 moa ammo. You can't get benchrest groups always like that. But sub 1" yes.

If that isn't good enough for hunting you need more practice at the range.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have Lee collet dies crap out on them? The last batch of 308 I did with mine had 15-20 out of 200 where the collet seized and the case body/shoulder got donutted. Thoughts? </div></div>
My thought is you are not using it right.
I would say that you need to clean the die , grease the collet taper . Then adjust it properly to only use a slight amount of force . It only takes a slight lean on the press handle to size .
For a collet die to work well it needs a compound leverage press which goes over center . This helps find the sweet spot. </div></div>

Thanks, but this ain't my first time out with this die. The last 200 I sized when the problem appeared were probably in the 4000ish range of cases ran through it. Upon closer inspection the collet has evidence of galling as does the forcing cone. Everything's polished up now and will have another go later. I'm gonna try Mobil1 synthetic as a lube between the collet and cone this time.

According to the manufacturer allowing a compund leverage press to cam over center will damage the collet dies, per Lee adjusted properly means screwed in enough the rockchucker doesn't cam over.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main thing about dies is setting them up correctly. I have set dies by every major manufacturer to do as well as the other. SOME ARE easier to use and easier to change setups. But it CAN be done with an economy set. When the dies aren't set correctly the brass gets overworked and a case head is going to seperate at some point. But hopefully you'll get loose necks first meaning the brass has been used several times and either needs annealed again or get a bushing die.

If the rifle and componets are capable of 1 moa, you CAN use a cheap set of dies to make 1 moa ammo. You can't get benchrest groups always like that. But sub 1" yes.

If that isn't good enough for hunting you need more practice at the range. </div></div>

I got everything figured out now. I will be neck sizing for now until I get a Redding body sizing die. Because I don't shoot my AR as much I will probably just neck size everything from now on because I shoot the bolt gun a lot more. I have plenty of FL sized ammo for my AR as it is so I don't need to load any more.

As far as groups, up to this point I have had some pretty decent groups. This is a factory barreled Savage 223 that has had the barrel shortened to 18", milled concentric to the bore and a tensioning sleeve installed. Most of that was to fix a heat related shift. It will shoot 1/2" pretty regularly as long as nothing crazy happens. It has shot smaller groups but not with the same regularity. These are with my handloads. I weigh each charge and seat the bullets really close to the lands. I can't use the internal mag so I installed a single shot adapter.

I will start really paying attention to brass prep and hopefully it will help with consistency.

Thanks for all the suggestions
Dolomite

 

[Country]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

According to the manufacturer allowing a compund leverage press to cam over center will damage the collet dies, per Lee adjusted properly means screwed in enough the rockchucker doesn't cam over.
</div></div>
That is just garbage mate it is only a problem if you don't adjust the die properly and put insane pressure on the handle to get it over center. I have used Lee collet dies since they came out in an RCBS Rock Chucker a Simplex O frame and a Redding , they all go over center. Lee does not want to admit that most of their presses don't suit the collet die.
If you use an over center press and adjust the die right it gives you a definate stopping place for the handle pressure .
So in most cases this will save the die not damage it. Most users without a compound press are leaning on the press with too much weight because they have no idea of how much force is actually required to do the job. So this results in a wide variation of the actual force applied and variable results.
The idea is to adjust the die until the pres " just " goes over center and stops then test your neck diameter witha bullet and adjust untill you jsut have enough force to get the neck sized down to the mandrel. With a 223 case and a lee collet die in an RCBS RC I can size a case neck with one finger on the handle . It will be the same each time because it stops at over center each time.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

I'll give that a shot.....

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So in most cases this will save the die not damage it. Most users without a compound press are leaning on the press with too much weight because they have no idea of how much force is actually required to do the job. So this results in a wide variation of the actual force applied and variable results.
The idea is to adjust the die until the pres " just " goes over center and stops then test your neck diameter witha bullet and adjust untill you jsut have enough force to get the neck sized down to the mandrel. With a 223 case and a lee collet die in an RCBS RC I can size a case neck with one finger on the handle . It will be the same each time because it stops at over center each time. </div></div>

Thanks Country, you told me something I aready knew but had forgotten. I have been having the same issue as soberbiker883.

 

[918v]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

I use the collet die. I adjust the die so the press DOES NOT cam over. I screw the die so far down that the handle can only come down about 2/3 of it's range of travel. That way I can feel when the neck is pressed against the mandrel and there is no way I can damage the die.

 

[Country]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So in most cases this will save the die not damage it. Most users without a compound press are leaning on the press with too much weight because they have no idea of how much force is actually required to do the job. So this results in a wide variation of the actual force applied and variable results.
The idea is to adjust the die until the pres " just " goes over center and stops then test your neck diameter witha bullet and adjust untill you jsut have enough force to get the neck sized down to the mandrel. With a 223 case and a lee collet die in an RCBS RC I can size a case neck with one finger on the handle . It will be the same each time because it stops at over center each time. </div></div>

Thanks Country, you told me something I aready knew but had forgotten. I have been having the same issue as soberbiker883. </div></div>
My pleasure mate, Lee collet dies are different to use and do take some time to work out. Once you get them right they are good.
I machine up a washer and place it under the skirt of the collet sleeve ontop of the shell holder . This reduces the length of the neck sized for a 223 case. This small unsized section kinda like a small double shoulder is never sized ever and after it is fireformed stays that way . It helps line up the short case neck and allows the case neck to be %75 turned in a factory chamber if you want without loosing accuracy due to increased neck clearance. This is only for a bolt gun .
Another thing taht was mentioned above is don't use oil of anykind on the collet taper it will only work fora while untill it drys out and runs off . Use a high temp high pressure wheel bearing grease. Or something similar. Grease stays put for a long time.

 

[Country]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the collet die. I adjust the die so the press DOES NOT cam over. I screw the die so far down that the handle can only come down about 2/3 of it's range of travel. That way I can feel when the neck is pressed against the mandrel and there is no way I can damage the die. </div></div>
You certainly can use it that way and if you have a good idea of how much force is required it will work but many reloaders don't and use way too much force and do infact damage the die.
I certainly will not say you are wrong as it can work with care but just try the over center way and I think you will find it is way easier on your arm after many cases because you are using the highest part of the compound leverage which is in the very last part of the ram going up. The way you are doing it you are only using maybe a 1/4 of the presses real power so your arm has to supply the rest. I have tried it the way Lee says and gave it away real quick .
If you are happy with it then thats all that matters .

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

I cant believe that no one has commented on the chamber in this particular rifle. If the chamber is cut correctly ( what i mean by correctly is a min chamber) then it shouldnt matter what die you use as the re-size will be minimum. I FL everything only bumping the head space back 1thou or less. My chambers are pretty tight as they should be. I always buy Wilson or Redding. I didnt read this hole topic so if i am off base here its my fault. I just wanted to stress the point of good chambering work pays more than just good accuracy. Lee

 

[918v]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the collet die. I adjust the die so the press DOES NOT cam over. I screw the die so far down that the handle can only come down about 2/3 of it's range of travel. That way I can feel when the neck is pressed against the mandrel and there is no way I can damage the die. </div></div>
You certainly can use it that way and if you have a good idea of how much force is required it will work but many reloaders don't and use way too much force and do infact damage the die.
I certainly will not say you are wrong as it can work with care but just try the over center way and I think you will find it is way easier on your arm after many cases because you are using the highest part of the compound leverage which is in the very last part of the ram going up. The way you are doing it you are only using maybe a 1/4 of the presses real power so your arm has to supply the rest. I have tried it the way Lee says and gave it away real quick .
If you are happy with it then thats all that matters . </div></div>

I do it that way cuz neck thickness varies between cases in the same lot and even more between different brands. Adjusting the die to account for these variables is a pain, and camming over a military neck when the die is adjusted for Winchester commercial brass will certainly break the die.

 

[Country]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the collet die. I adjust the die so the press DOES NOT cam over. I screw the die so far down that the handle can only come down about 2/3 of it's range of travel. That way I can feel when the neck is pressed against the mandrel and there is no way I can damage the die. </div></div>
You certainly can use it that way and if you have a good idea of how much force is required it will work but many reloaders don't and use way too much force and do infact damage the die.
I certainly will not say you are wrong as it can work with care but just try the over center way and I think you will find it is way easier on your arm after many cases because you are using the highest part of the compound leverage which is in the very last part of the ram going up. The way you are doing it you are only using maybe a 1/4 of the presses real power so your arm has to supply the rest. I have tried it the way Lee says and gave it away real quick .
If you are happy with it then thats all that matters . </div></div>

I do it that way cuz neck thickness varies between cases in the same lot and even more between different brands. Adjusting the die to account for these variables is a pain, and camming over a military neck when the die is adjusted for Winchester commercial brass will certainly break the die. </div></div>
True case neck thickness variation can be a problem in many types of dies . That is why it is better to size in batchse of the same brand and batch. You can't expect any die to handle different case neck thickness with NO adjustment .
Thats why they have threaded bodies and locking nuts .
I have on occasion mixed up cases and had the odd thick neck go into the die and it camed over center with extra force but it is not enough to harm the die . The case neck variation even in different brands is not that great.
To harm the die you would have to have the adjustment way to heavy in the first place .
However it is possible to harm the die using either method if insane force is used.
There is no denying that a Lee collet die does work better with neck turned brass and brass with consistant neck thickness but most other dies do also.

 

[Guest]

Re: Best dies to extend or get the most life out of br

Fl sizing in an AR with a good chamber is unnecessary with reasonable loads.
Lee collet die will work fine for 5-8 reloads then you may have to bump shoulder.
Redding or RCBS bushing dies are the best "press dies" out there but $ is hard to justify unless you you have a bug hole shooter rifle.
My "varmint AR" 223 will shoot 3/4" 5 shot groups with ammo loaded on a Lee press with a 3 die (FL, collet & seat) Lee die set and Fiocchi brass, BLC-2 & 60 gr Hornadys run through an old Lyman measure. That's good enough to kill any Coyote close enough to shoot at with a 223.