Best Large frame for reliability?

[Friday]

So this may have been discussed in the past, but maybe there is something new that hasn’t been discussed. I am looking to purchase a large frame most likely 308 gas gun. I normally build all of my gas guns if they are small frame. Given the finicky ways of the large frame calibers I don’t want to spend 3 grand building one just to fight it constantly.
What I have gathered is the JP enterprise is the best quality large frame gas gun on the market. And the seekins is a great more on the budget side. Does anyone have any other opinions on this?
I am really leaning towards the JP even at 4800 bucks if it’s going to be a smooth accurate shooter. Buy once cry once is my theory lol! Is there any that are better?

 

[rmiked]

I’m new to ARs. I have read a lot and watched Utube videos. GA Precision makes the GAP 10. It’s built on the Seekins upper, lower, handguard. The difference is their bartlein barrel work. I bought the SP10 mainly because I really couldn’t afford the GAP 10. The fact that GA Precision chooses the Seekins upper/lower to build their rifle is the highest expression of flattery. About a decade ago there was a young man working for GAP making videos shooting the GAP 10 named Tyler Kemp. All they used was factory ammo. It was the most impressive shooting I have ever seen. He shot 4, 5 shot groups averaging 0.358 MOA at 100 yds. It was a 308, shooting black hills 168 grain bthp. He shot the rifle in various positions . He also shoots an 6mm Creedmore at various distances out to 1000 yds. It’s not just the rifle, but it is at least the rifle. Why anyone would want any different platform is puzzling to me. Perhaps there are similar videos of other manufacturer‘s rifles that will match this? I am new to this game but it is intriguing. And I appreciate there are guys on this forum that can shoot like this. Here is the link:

 

[hafejd30]

Watch the px for deals

* Not saying this one is the best. Just saving you some $$ if this is what you plan to buy anyways

I used to own this 308 before I traded to @Bart

SOLD - JP LRI 308 side charger 3000 shipped

Hello all! Traded for the JP this summer, but I now realize that I am not a large frame AR fan! Absolutely not the gun, I am just a smaller dude, and enjoy the small frames so much more... Great shooter, sub moa, very smooth action, and really do see what the fuss is about, just not for me. I...

www.snipershide.com

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Well the SP10M has a USSOC contract and I’m not familiar with any contracts JP has. JP’s are nice rifles but to say they’re more reliable is probably inaccurate.

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

Reliability? Knights armament hands down.

 

[Jsp556]

Any of the Mil contract guns are going to be pretty reliable. They meet accuracy and reliability requirements for whatever contract they win. While it’s not the end all be all, at least it’s something.

Can better guns be built? Maybe but an individual probably doesn’t have the ammo budget to prove it.

You seem to want a JP rifle. Go for it. They have a great reputation for building accurate and reliable large frames and supporting their products after the sale.

 

[Friday]

I appreciate the input I’m glad there are people liking the SP10 the reason I was leaning towards the JP is I’ve read a lot of people changing over to JP BCG in there seekins rifles as well as buffer assembly’s and what not, I will have to look into the GAP10 this interests me.

 

[TheDude219]

So this may have been discussed in the past, but maybe there is something new that hasn’t been discussed. I am looking to purchase a large frame most likely 308 gas gun. I normally build all of my gas guns if they are small frame. Given the finicky ways of the large frame calibers I don’t want to spend 3 grand building one just to fight it constantly.
What I have gathered is the JP enterprise is the best quality large frame gas gun on the market. And the seekins is a great more on the budget side. Does anyone have any other opinions on this?
I am really leaning towards the JP even at 4800 bucks if it’s going to be a smooth accurate shooter. Buy once cry once is my theory lol! Is there any that are better?

My LMT marsh h is rock solid. I also own a JP (223) but I have had to send that back for warranty work. Never had an issue with LMT.

 

[Evolution 9]

LMT is great if you’re never going to suppress it. They are grossly overgassed once suppressed (which many would argue means they are grossly overgassed to begin with).

 

[Friday]

LMT is great if you’re never going to suppress it. They are grossly overgassed once suppressed (which many would argue means they are grossly overgassed to begin with).

I will be running suppressed this is why LMT was not in my original post I’ve heard many have had issues running cans on them

 

[simonp]

I’m new to ARs. I have read a lot and watched Utube videos. GA Precision makes the GAP 10. It’s built on the Seekins upper, lower, handguard. The difference is their bartlein barrel work. I bought the SP10 mainly because I really couldn’t afford the GAP 10. The fact that GA Precision chooses the Seekins upper/lower to build their rifle is the highest expression of flattery. About a decade ago there was a young man working for GAP making videos shooting the GAP 10 named Tyler Kemp. All they used was factory ammo. It was the most impressive shooting I have ever seen. He shot 4, 5 shot groups averaging 0.358 MOA at 100 yds. It was a 308, shooting black hills 168 grain bthp. He shot the rifle in various positions . He also shoots an 6mm Creedmore at various distances out to 1000 yds. It’s not just the rifle, but it is at least the rifle. Why anyone would want any different platform is puzzling to me. Perhaps there are similar videos of other manufacturer‘s rifles that will match this? I am new to this game but it is intriguing. And I appreciate there are guys on this forum that can shoot like this. Here is the link:

Nice video, if I was in the market for another large frame gas gun I would be looking hard at the GAP 10 I think, has me curious what their current pricing is like.

I know you mentioned pricing / not being able to afford this, let me say experience has taught me that there is a lot to be said for saving and buy once / cry once. I am not saying just blow $$ or spend it foolishly but cutting corners quite often leads to regrets and more $$ down the line.

 

[Friday]

Nice video, if I was in the market for another large frame gas gun I would be looking hard at the GAP 10 I think, has me curious what their current pricing is like.

I know you mentioned pricing / not being able to afford this, let me say experience has taught me that there is a lot to be said for saving and buy once / cry once. I am not saying just blow $$ or spend it foolishly but cutting corners quite often leads to regrets and more $$ down the line.

Agreed

 

[stanley_white]

If I wanted reliability in a 308 I would go G3.

-Stan

 

[hkguns]

I agree with G3/HK91 above, mine will sling brass so far you will never find it.

Why not just build yourself, then post here on how to fix it when you screw it up? You could be next weeks guest star in the I screwed up my AR10 build and it won't run thread of the week.

Look for Military contract wins for wisdom in this space, but in all seriousness, one can be built reliably, if you simply pay attention to what you are doing.

 

[BCP]

Do you want a carbine you can sling around? A target rifle? What kind of optic do you want to use?

 

[Friday]

Do you want a carbine you can sling around? A target rifle? What kind of optic do you want to use?

Target rifle NF optics

 

[RUTGERS95]

For reliability and large frame gas guns one need look no further than LMT. Someone else said it best though in that all the mil contracts set ups should be more than reliable enough (nothing is infallible)

 

[Evolution 9]

For reliability and large frame gas guns one need look no further than LMT. Someone else said it best though in that all the mil contracts set ups should be more than reliable enough (nothing is infallible)

OP is planning to run a suppressor. LMT is the single worst suppressor host of all large frame ARs. Grossly overgassed for that application and harder than most to address that due to proprietary gas block/tube.

If a person never wanted to consider suppressor use LMT would be higher on my recommendation list.

It’s really sad… LMT is simply a smaller drill bit and reamer away from pulling their heads out of their asses.

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

For reliability and large frame gas guns one need look no further than LMT. Someone else said it best though in that all the mil contracts set ups should be more than reliable enough (nothing is infallible)

Laughs at Kac then says Lmt for reliability. I’ve had 3 mws rifles and none would run with a can. They were stupidly over gassed even without a can. If we’re talking reliability no one has refined the large frame AR more then knights and that’s facts.

 

[Friday]

Laughs at Kac then says Lmt for reliability. I’ve had 3 mws rifles and none would run with a can. They were stupidly over gassed even without a can. If we’re talking reliability no one has refined the large frame AR more then knights and that’s facts.

What makes knights so much more refined? I’ll be honest with you most people running large frame builds whether they are built or bought end up using something from JP in the Bolt assembly or buffer spring assembly, that I have seen. Now to be fair in all my years of being on here I haven’t heard any one say anything bad about knights ether but I haven’t seen a whole lot of anything said about them. In my opinion if a guy could spend a couple grand less and get away with just changing a BCG or something to gain maximum reliability why not. That’s why I am asking. But if all rifles that are said to be reliable are in the 4 and 5k range I may as well just run a JP complete rifle.

 

[JR1200W3]

OP is planning to run a suppressor. LMT is the single worst suppressor host of all large frame ARs. Grossly overgassed for that application and harder than most to address that due to proprietary gas block/tube.

If a person never wanted to consider suppressor use LMT would be higher on my recommendation list.

It’s really sad… LMT is simply a smaller drill bit and reamer away from pulling their heads out of their asses.

A $65 BRT gas tube would fix that.

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

What makes knights so much more refined? I’ll be honest with you most people running large frame builds whether they are built or bought end up using something from JP in the Bolt assembly or buffer spring assembly, that I have seen. Now to be fair in all my years of being on here I haven’t heard any one say anything bad about knights ether but I haven’t seen a whole lot of anything said about them. In my opinion if a guy could spend a couple grand less and get away with just changing a BCG or something to gain maximum reliability why not. That’s why I am asking. But if all rifles that are said to be reliable are in the 4 and 5k range I may as well just run a JP complete rifle.

Gas system and bcg mainly. Kac has spent insane amounts of money on development of the sr25 family. They’ve went through many evolutions getting feedback from end users that get shot at for a living. There is no seekins sp10 or gap10 without Kac getting the sr25 where it is today.

Not saying they’re the most accurate what so ever (although my apc averaged a sub moa 6x5 with factory ammo) but I would put it up against any large frame rifle in the reliability department.

 

[Evolution 9]

A $65 BRT gas tube would fix that.

Temporarily yes. Anyone who’s familiar with the erosion rates involved knows you’d have to replace the tube occasionally which doesn’t meet the OP’s requirements, but yes, it can be done.

 

[JR1200W3]

I really don't think building a reliable large frame is that hard. I think there's a few compatibility do's and don't s and the gas port sizes to know but once you know them it isn't hard

 

[JR1200W3]

Temporarily yes. Anyone who’s familiar with the erosion rates involved knows you’d have to replace the tube occasionally which doesn’t meet the OP’s requirements, but yes, it can be done.

Are you saying their gas tube erodes faster than a Seekins gas block or tube?

 

[Evolution 9]

Are you saying their gas tube erodes faster than a Seekins gas block or tube?

The super thin metal wall of a gas tube when it’s entry hole is undersized to make it the tightest constriction point in the system will definitely erode (get bigger) faster than the large blocks of steel (barrel and gas block) nearby.

That’s why you can get SCARs to run better suppressed with smaller ports but have to replace them frequently.

Not totally poopooing the idea as a workaround but it’s a bandaid, a temporary one, the need for which is asinine beyond belief.

 

[JR1200W3]

I think a lot of these threads all go to the same place. Most reliable -> most hard use -> least maintenance required. Meanwhile the MK18 and URGI are all parts guns without proprietary bolts made from unobtanium. They get the piss shkt out of them and parts replaced on a schedule.

I wouldn't say replacing certain parts in the form of maintenance or service is a work around.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I will be running suppressed this is why LMT was not in my original post I’ve heard many have had issues running cans on them

Taken today (20” SS .30Hate)
Zero issues with suppressing a factory MARS H MWS or MRP. The internet will tell you a lot of things don’t work…when they actually do. LMTs are designed to work regardless of condition, which is why the gas is the way it is.

AR platform, small or large, LMT is the only way to go.

 

[LeadZeke]

LMT is good if QC is good. Just get a low back pressure suppressor for it like an OSS 7.62 Flow. Same for the H&K.
KAC is good too.
Although it is a small shop I'd put @MSTN up there too!

 

[RUTGERS95]

Laughs at Kac then says Lmt for reliability. I’ve had 3 mws rifles and none would run with a can. They were stupidly over gassed even without a can. If we’re talking reliability no one has refined the large frame AR more then knights and that’s facts.

kac is not known to be the most reliable. well established

anything else?

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

kac is not known to be the most reliable. well established

anything else?

except they are. You’re basing this on the m110 which was specced out by the army. Knights routinely wanted to upgrade these rifles in to which the army refused. They also disagreed with many of the contract requirements and tried to get them to change, which they wouldn’t.

Do you own a sr25? Or have you ever?

 

[JR1200W3]

I have a fair amount of experience with MK11 SR-25s and the M110 up until about 5 years ago. The specifications the Army required in the M110 compared to the current MK 11 SRs of that time weren't anything that would effect reliability. They were mostly related to external furniture. I don't think it's possible to try to make some sort of exception for the M110 as an aside while also propping up it's sister generation of SR25's. As far as the army refusing to let Knight upgrade them, everything Knights did to the guns cost money. The Army was pretty disillusioned in the M110 and refused to pour anymore money into it. Hence why the CSASS down select followed.

We broke a lot of bolts. IMO this was due to M118LR being loaded hotter (plus using temp sensitive powder) over the years right before the M110 was fielded. It was hard on a gas gun. The triggers would fail. They would start to double tap. This was always clouded with skepticism because newer shooters could induce a double tap by having extremely poor fundamentals but we saw trigger issues with SR25s before the big Army even procured the M110. And the M110's accuracy degraded surprisingly quickly. And this isn't related to the current date Knights SR25 chrome lined barrels. These were all SS barrels made for precision. They would shoot pretty good when new but they had nowhere the service life of the M24. They all(M110's and that generation of SR25's) came with factory proof targets. Knights measured accuracy by dispersion of rounds in the group from POA. From center to the farthest round from center. Not by outside to outside. So the measurements written on the proof targets sounded great but they were generally not impressive from the factory.

Looking back, those guns did pretty good considering the hordes of unwashed masses of retarded big Army E4's that skull drug them around. At the time the vast majority did not have much experience with large frame ARs and all comparisons were made to a very simple and reliable bolt gun that served for 20 plus years. Considering what they went through they did pretty good for a gas gun and I'm willing to bet they don't compare to current KAC SRs although I don't have any experience with new APCs or the like.

The large frame AR has come a long way in the last 15 years. There are plenty of options and the random guy on SH that has zero experience with LFARs, hasn't bought one or built one, that post's a "what's the most reliable AR to buy(because I'm too ignorant of them in general to even begin to build one, or replace a gas tube)" doesn't really require an $8K invincible AR thats even too rich for DODs blood. He's going to drive it to a 100yd flat range and buy cheap Sellior and Bellot 175gr ammo. But that's always where these threads go. Not trying to be offensive to the OP but that's just the reality most of the time for civilians.

OP, PM @MSTN and have him build you a reasonable gun. It's not rocket science that requires rare earth metals and $1500 bolts

 

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

I really don't think building a reliable large frame is that hard. I think there's a few compatibility do's and don't s and the gas port sizes to know but once you know them it isn't hard

This is where i land as well. Buy a matching receiver set, a quality BCG and barrel, and an adjustable gas block.

 

[Friday]

I personally have to take the military contract theory with a grain of salt. I have seen the American government make some questionable decisions to cut prices for and inferior product more than once. Like choosing an Sig over a Barretta or Glock. The whole world knows the Sig is not as reliable as ether of the others.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

Definitely consider buying used, if you're wanting to buy a complete large frame AR. I've known several people who sold theirs because they were safe queens or the ammo was just a bigger cost than they expected.

I bought my MWS used and it's been great. I shoot it 95% of the time with a can, using an extra heavy buffer. There's lots of good options out there right now.

 

[ut755ln]

Best is so subjective. To me I guess that means reliability followed by longevity while maintaining military spec accuracy.

HK MR 762
HK G3
KAC SR 25
FN SCAR 17
FN FAL

 

[thehun]

KAC SR25 (if you can swing it)
LMT MWS with either modified gas tube or swap the gas key out with a rubber city one
SCAR 17
MR762
SPEAR 308 (I am truly impressed by its built quality and ridiculousness of its overbuilt components to handle the new 6.8X51 ... which will make the rifle last a loooong time shooting 308 ...)

Now ... you CAN build a nice AR10 with MATCHED components that will also serve you very well ... I have a ridiculously well built Aero setup with 22" Criterion M118LR barrel that is just a pleasure to shoot ...

 

[LRRPF52]

I have a fair amount of experience with MK11 SR-25s and the M110 up until about 5 years ago. The specifications the Army required in the M110 compared to the current MK 11 SRs of that time weren't anything that would effect reliability. They were mostly related to external furniture. I don't think it's possible to try to make some sort of exception for the M110 as an aside while also propping up it's sister generation of SR25's. As far as the army refusing to let Knight upgrade them, everything Knights did to the guns cost money. The Army was pretty disillusioned in the M110 and refused to pour anymore money into it. Hence why the CSASS down select followed.

We broke a lot of bolts. IMO this was due to M118LR being loaded hotter (plus using temp sensitive powder) over the years right before the M110 was fielded. It was hard on a gas gun. The triggers would fail. They would start to double tap. This was always clouded with skepticism because newer shooters could induce a double tap by having extremely poor fundamentals but we saw trigger issues with SR25s before the big Army even procured the M110. And the M110's accuracy degraded surprisingly quickly. And this isn't related to the current date Knights SR25 chrome lined barrels. These were all SS barrels made for precision. They would shoot pretty good when new but they had nowhere the service life of the M24. They all(M110's and that generation of SR25's) came with factory proof targets. Knights measured accuracy by dispersion of rounds in the group from POA. From center to the farthest round from center. Not by outside to outside. So the measurements written on the proof targets sounded great but they were generally not impressive from the factory.

Looking back, those guns did pretty good considering the hordes of unwashed masses of retarded big Army E4's that skull drug them around. At the time the vast majority did not have much experience with large frame ARs and all comparisons were made to a very simple and reliable bolt gun that served for 20 plus years. Considering what they went through they did pretty good for a gas gun and I'm willing to bet they don't compare to current KAC SRs although I don't have any experience with new APCs or the like.

The large frame AR has come a long way in the last 15 years. There are plenty of options and the random guy on SH that has zero experience with LFARs, hasn't bought one or built one, that post's a "what's the most reliable AR to buy(because I'm too ignorant of them in general to even begin to build one, or replace a gas tube)" doesn't really require an $8K invincible AR thats even too rich for DODs blood. He's going to drive it to a 100yd flat range and buy cheap Sellior and Bellot 175gr ammo. But that's always where these threads go. Not trying to be offensive to the OP but that's just the reality most of the time for civilians.

OP, PM @MSTN and have him build you a reasonable gun. It's not rocket science that requires rare earth metals and $1500 bolts

Bolt breakage on large frames is very unusual, but it was common with M110s because the Army required the bolts to be HPT’d, like the stupid requirement on M4 bolts. SR-25s were rarely known, if ever, for breaking bolts before that. KAC voiced their protests about HPTing bolts, but big Army overrode competent, sound engineering and demanded HPT for the contract.

This is why JSOC and other elements who frequently supported JSOC refused to order the M110, and only ordered SR-25 improved models.
Big Army E-4s are often smarter than the PEOs of weapons programs, since the really smart PEOs get allocated to Aviation, Armor, Artillery, Medical, EW, Cyber, etc. Most of the officers in the Army who end up dealing with small arms programs don’t have the engineering backgrounds or competent managerial experience to run a basic weapons improvement project, and it shows time-after-time.

In fact, the most consequential, successful small arms programs adopted by the US Army over the last 60 years were driven by the USAF or Belgium:

AR-15 (USAF)
FN Minimi (became the SAW)
M240 (MAG 58)

Some smaller programs were all driven by JSOC, then loosely-copied and watered-down by SOCOM, or driven by AMU in conjunction with SOF elements (SPR and Mk.262).

Big Army has no successful, well-received small arms programs outside of those. M14 failed. M60 was trash. SPIW was a total failure. ACR was a failure. M24 was retarded. M9, XM8, MHS, ISCR, NGSAR, NGSW all misguided, poorly-executed, ill-conceived programs that ignore basic institutional knowledge the Army has possessed for over a century.

 

[JR1200W3]

Did you get out as an E4?

Bolt breakage on large frames is very unusual, but it was common with M110s because the Army required the bolts to be HPT’d, like the stupid requirement on M4 bolts. SR-25s were rarely known, if ever, for breaking bolts before that. KAC voiced their protests about HPTing bolts, but big Army overrode competent, sound engineering and demanded HPT for the contract.

This is why JSOC and other elements who frequently supported JSOC refused to order the M110, and only ordered SR-25 improved models.
Big Army E-4s are often smarter than the PEOs of weapons programs, since the really smart PEOs get allocated to Aviation, Armor, Artillery, Medical, EW, Cyber, etc. Most of the officers in the Army who end up dealing with small arms programs don’t have the engineering backgrounds or competent managerial experience to run a basic weapons improvement project, and it shows time-after-time.

In fact, the most consequential, successful small arms programs adopted by the US Army over the last 60 years were driven by the USAF or Belgium:

AR-15 (USAF)
FN Minimi (became the SAW)
M240 (MAG 58)

Some smaller programs were all driven by JSOC, then loosely-copied and watered-down by SOCOM, or driven by AMU in conjunction with SOF elements (SPR and Mk.262).

Big Army has no successful, well-received small arms programs outside of those. M14 failed. M60 was trash. SPIW was a total failure. ACR was a failure. M24 was retarded. M9, XM8, MHS, ISCR, NGSAR, NGSW all misguided, poorly-executed, ill-conceived programs that ignore basic institutional knowledge the Army has possessed for over a century.

LOL, did you get out of as an E4?

 

[45-90]

I build quite a few AR 10s and have no problem with functionality once set up. Using the DPMS format, for mine, several 308s , 6.5 CM, 358Win, 8.6 Blackout, as an example, all run fine.