Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

[jrob300]

I put a similar thread up in the "Observation Devices" sub-forum and got a little action, but not much.

You guys that shoot matches with UKD... what really works for lazing steel out to 1200 yds. and is NOT called a Terrapin? If I bought one of those, I'd have to sleep in the box. If that is the only answer, then I'll have to wait... along time.

From what I can tell the main players are the Swaro, Leica 1600 and the two Bushy's, the Elite 1600 ARC mono and the Fusion 1600 binos. I've been PM'ing with a couple guys and it would appear that the Fusion 1600's are definitely up to the task, but would like to stay with a mono for weight alone, but also don't want to carry two binos for matches that have mil-only stages.

I know all of these will range big stuff to further than most of us can shoot, but I'm talking specifically about steel, 1 moa plates (I know that's small, but I want to cover my bases well here), to 1200 yds. nice and bright and white, to shot to hell and barely recognizable, in a variety of conditions.

Would prefer your real life experiences..... Thoughts?

John

 

[DeadNoise]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I have the leica and have no regrets, at our range there is a steel at 1135 and it will range it off hand with no issues.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

How big is that steel? And is there brush around it, or just sitting alone?

John

 

[ssatt68]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Tag.

 

[PaulStafford]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I just got the Bushnell 1600 ARC Elite mono and have done some tests on it to decide whether it's going to work. I need to range steel for tactical matches, some of which require you to mil the first target before using an LRF on the rest of that station. This (for me) rules out ranging binos because I don't want to carry two sets, one for ranging, one for locating targets.

Today, in bright sun, I ranged a 12x16" plywood rectangle - my analog for both dark and light colored steel. I found reliable, repeatable results out to 1050 yds. However, I found you must do two things.
One is use a very solid rest - I will get a tabletop tripod, which are available for under $20 and under 4 oz.

Two, you must use the feature which allows continuous ranging, and move the LRF targeting circle ever so slightly around the target until it gets the range.

Large objects, such as very large freeway signs I could range to 1700 yds. I could get many but not most trees at similar ranges.

I think these are a very useable budget LRF. Only 10 oz, under $500, and include accelerometers which measure the look angle.
I wish they had more magnification (10X would be great), and Bushnell could have deleted the attempt to include ballistics info.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Thanks for chiming in here, Paul.

So, for those of you who do this all the time, is it unreasonable to range small steel to 1200 yds., handheld, with the right LRF? Or do you take the time to break out a tripod and settle in for precision measurements? Is this a limitation of the Bushy and do others do this better? Or is this pretty much status quo for the under-$1000 bunch?

John

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

For me, the limitation on ranging steel at 1200 is my inability to hold the binos steady enough... If I sit down and get a better position I can get pretty decent readings, but the trick mentioned above is what I do. Leave the LRF set on continuous and watch your readings as you track across the target. I use the Fusion binos, but my understanding is that the monocular has the same laser, so I would be confident using that as well.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the Fusion binos, but my understanding is that the monocular has the same laser, so I would be confident using that as well. </div></div>

This is also part of my question... I have heard repeatedly that the two have the same laser, but what about the lenses in FRONT of that laser? The Elite is made in China and the Fusions are made in Japan. Anyone do a side-by-side eval to confirm the performance of the two?

John

 

[DeadNoise]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

14x14 in. And not it's on the side of a bare hill. Just dirt

 

[nohair]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Tag

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

So, it sounds like the Leica and the Bushnell binos will get the job done, but some question still about the Elite ARC mono.

Any other input?

John

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

The Elite 1600 ARC is a great piece.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I use the Bushnell ARC 1600 Binos, but the monocular version looks VERY handy too! Plus it is less than HALF of your budget! You could buy TWO!
Oh, and Rifles Only has the Bushnell Binos and Monos in stock right now in the online shop.

Edit: Also, the Bushnells have a very good and useful "brush mode" that helps you range through bushes and shrubbery.

[url="http://www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop"]www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop[/url]

 

[Ring]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Bushnell 1600 ARC Elite

good to 1800+

 

[Augustus]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Gentlemen, once again it's time for a reality check. The dispersion on the Bushnells is 2 by 4 mils. At 1200 yds the beam will be 7ft by 14 ft, you cannot consistently range a 1moa target with the Bushnell, Sworo or any other with dispersions this large. You may be able to get correct readings if the target is on a hillside or if there is a large reflective object nearby.

The gentleman that posted the info that the Bushnell is good to 1800 plus for ranging 1 Moa targets is living in denial. At 1800 yds the beam is 11ft by 22ft. Plaaaaeeese knock off the BS.

 

[SRSDriver]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: takeaim1st</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If any of you have used the bushnell mono, I would appreciate any honest realistic info. It may have been just me but, I lost the retina in my right eye, I tried looking through a pair of the busy binos at Gander mountain the other day could not see the reading, switched the binos over to where I could look through the right lens with my left eye and could see a reading. If the mono is worthwhile I would be interested, or would the Lecia be a better choice?
. </div></div>

I sold my Bushnell 1600 Fusions because the rangefinder was worthless on any day with that glowing ball in the sky.

I tried all the ocular covers, etc to no avail.

 

[martinc]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Elite 1600 ARC is a great piece.</div></div>

This is a great unit aside from the fact it's int he $500 range. Had for ~1.5 years and used it in completion.

 

[ashland]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Agustus, what do you use?

 

[Augustus]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I have two, the first I bought was a Lieca 1200, I considered it a nice 800 yd rangefinder. The divergence on it is .5 by 2 mils so it works nice within it's range capabilities. I can rarely get ranges on anything with the Lieca past 1100 yds.

I have TERRIPIN, it works as advertised but it is out of the price range of the OP. The truth of the matter is there is not a rangefinder that will do what the OP is wanting to do that cost less than 1000.00

I would look at the Lieca 1600, I think the divergence is .5 by 2 mils, it may not have as much reach as the Bushnell or Sworo but it will be more precise within it's range. The vertical divergence is the most important in ranging small targets on flat ground. The Liecas vertical is one fourth the size of the Bushnell, Sworo, G7 etc.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

The lovely thing about the Bushnell Elite 1600 is the scan feature. While it may not be pinpoint accurate, you can "scan and pan". Watch the readings as you pass the target and you get your reading.

I don't think I have been in a situation yet where I couldn't range a large object (ground, hillside, building) near the target and determine the range.

 

[i_rep]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3458994#Post3458994

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Some great input here guys. Thanks so much for chiming in. I have looked all over the internet for this kind of data and it will be helpful to others in the future.

Augustus, have you read this thread and is this better performance on a flapper at 956 and 1093 than you would expect?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1920624

Will the fact that the Elite is made in China and the Fusion is made in Japan have any potential bearing on ultimate performance?

I have been getting pm's from guys that are lazing steel and animals well past 1200 yds. handheld with the Fusions, but I'm not getting that same feedback on the Elite.

I've gotten mixed response on the Leica 1600.

$2k is out of the question. $1k is actually a huge stretch, so I guess it comes down to what is the most consistent performer on steel for the least price. I do not want to have to pass up targets at a match because I get ---. Have the targets you guys been lazing always been next to something you can laze? Am I trying to solve a problem that is not there?


Thanks again for your input.
John

 

[Augustus]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I read the thread. I believe you will be able to get correct ranges at those distances under some circumstances, also if you learn it's shortcomings you will learn to operate it better.

You will have a lot of trouble on flat or rolling terrain at distance. The best thing to do is find someone that has some of the ones you are considering and try them for yourself. Most folks have a tendency defend what they own so keep that in mind.

 

[Driftwood]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

I shopped around for quite a while debating which LRF to buy. I found that while most could range a house at their maximum listed range under ideal conditions, their performance under less than perfect conditions was predictably less than perfect.

I narrowed my field down to the Swarovski and the Leica. Both had excellent reviews and when I would compare then in the store they both had their positive points. The Swarovski was about $100 more, but that wasn't a huge factor. They both had excellent glass, which I use more than I thought I would. The Swarovski had a bigger field of view, but was bigger over all. The Leica 1600 was smaller and had some functions that the Swarovski did not. After a lot of internal debate, I opted for the Leica 1600, thinking that if I didn't like it I could always return it and get the Swarovski. I bought it as a range finder, but find I use it more as a monocular that ranges. I haven't looked back. I wish I had bought one sooner.

I would make a few changes to the 1600, I believe all or most of which are incorporated into the 1600B. I don't like the ballistic program in my 1600. I do like that it will give me the angle to my target, temperature and barometric pressure. I don't like that the barometric pressure reads in PSI in the imperial unit mode, which has been changed on the 1600B. It now reads in inches of mercury, which is more common. The 1600 will range in Meters or Yards. It also has a scan mode.

The scan mode works very well as has been pointed out by lonewolf with the bushnell. I am able to range targets further out using the scan mode, especially when coupled with a rest. My preferred rest is a PRS SSP2 saddle that my LRF fits perfectly in that I discovered by chance. The farthest I have ranged with my 1600 was a semi truck at just over 1800 yards using the scan mode. The normal ranging works well out past 1,000 yards but as you get further out it becomes more difficult to hold the LRF steady without some sort of support.

I think you have to be realistic in your expectations as has been pointed out; you are not only limited by beam strength but size as well. None of the LRF's indicated are going to range a ground squirrel at 1,000 yards, it may range the ground around him, but the squirrel is too small. You need to keep that in mind when trying to range your target.

The Leica 1600B has made some improvements to the 1600 I love and carry around with me everyday, but I don't know if they are enough to make me switch. You could get the older Leica 1600 for less money, especially if you could find someone that wanted to trade up. I recently saw an almost new Leica 1600 go for $500 in the optics section. I believe that is the best LRF bang for the buck. If you want to stay with your under $1000 then I would buy the new Leica 1600B.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

We're going to be putting up a new steel COF from medium to ELR in a couple weeks. Should have a Bushnell Elite ARC 1600, Leica 1600B and a Leica Geovid to compare side-by-side. With a little luck , maybe even a pair of Fusion 1600 ARC binos.

This should make for some really good objective data collection.

John

 

[SVG308]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We're going to be putting up a new steel COF from medium to ELR in a couple weeks. Should have a Bushnell Elite ARC 1600, Leica 1600B and a Leica Geovid to compare side-by-side. With a little luck , maybe even a pair of Fusion 1600 ARC binos.

This should make for some really good objective data collection.

John</div></div>

Awesome. Thanks for putting that together!

 

[Loopdog]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

+1 for the Leica 1600

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Well, we got out today to set up steel at a new spot and we took the opportunity to compare some LRF's too. We had a Bushy Elite 1600, an older pair of Geovids and a new Leica 1600B. The results were interesting.

The Geovids were of unknown vintage, but could not keep up with the other two in terms of raw ranging capability.

The longest numbers of the day were just at a mile by the Elite 1600. I did get 1700+ numbers from the Leica, but again this was just ranging random stuff, not asking it to laze something I wanted to shoot. And this is where beam divergence comes into play, it would seem.

The Bushy can consistently get bigger numbers than the Leica, the question is, what are we ranging? If you keep it in scan mode, you pretty soon learn that even in brush mode, you may not be ranging what you think you are. The Leica on the other hand is very precise in its beam placement and very quick to return a number. And the number is the same every time. Unless you hold the Elite 1600 VERY still or mount on a tripod, the numbers will vary, which is the first clue that you're not ranging what you think you are.

Case in point:

We hung this 14"x18" silhouette steel at 881 yds. I know that it is 881 yds. because while my two shooting partners were hanging it, I could get consistent readings of off them from both LRF's at 881 yds. Once they moved out of the way, the Elite 1600 would read 889, 888, 892, 885, 887, and if I held it REALLY still... 882. The Leica gave me 881 every time. Unless I held slightly left, right up, or down and then I got the other numbers. Both LRF's were near their limit of ranging small things, however...

Conclusion... if you just need to range a hillside, or a pine tree, the Elite 1600 may be your budget LRF, but if you need to range small things or just want to know that you're ranging that rock on the far hillside and not the top of the trees on the ridge in between... get the Leica. It is extremely discriminating about what it ranges, whereas with the Bushy, you're not always exactly sure what it is you're getting a return from.

In addition the Elite 1600 readout is a slightly blurry faded red-orange and hard to read when it's bright out, while the Leica is a very sharp, bright red that is easy to read in any light.

The question remains... is the Leica worth $200 more to you? I think it may be to me. The Terrapin is the next step up and its nearly $2K, and now I'm going to ask the sacrilegious question. Exactly how can the Terrapin be worth over 2x the Leica when they use the same Class 1 eye-safe laser and the Leica's BD is 1.5 mil x .5 mil and the Terrapin is 1.4 mil x .4 mil (for reference the Elite 1600 is 4 mil x 2 mil). I would really like to get my hands on one and do some real world side-by-side testing vs. the 1600B. Color me very skeptical.

John

 

[Augustus]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Answer, the TERRIPIN can consistently range the 14 by 18 steel plate easily at 1800 yds. You seemed to think you were operating at the outer edge of the Liecas capability. At 881 yds the TERRIPIN is not even warmed up.

The Bushy, Sworo, Leica etc is not in the same class as the TERRIPIN, you need to find someone that owns one of these and play with it.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Answer, the TERRIPIN can consistently range the 14 by 18 steel plate easily at 1800 yds. <span style="color: #FF0000">You seemed to think you were operating at the outer edge of the Liecas capability.</span> At 881 yds the TERRIPIN is not even warmed up.

The Bushy, Sworo, Leica etc is not in the same class as the TERRIPIN, you need to find someone that owns one of these and play with it. </div></div>

Yeah, I'm sure you know what I mean, Augustus. Before that readings are fairly consistent, even handheld. At nearly 900, you have to support on a rest. I imagine the 1600B could probably range further, but not much.

Are your targets skylined at that distance? Are you SURE you're not ranging backdrop? This is what I find is most challenging for these units.

I would LOVE to get my hands on one...

John

 

[Augustus]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

The TERRIPIN is not magic, it is a piece of equipment that must be operated as opposed to being used. To get all the goody the operator should do the math and know the shape and size of the beam at the distance in question. This will allow you to center the target and mentally overlay the beam, this will allow you to see the other possible targets that may interfere. Also learning to use the 3D function helps a bunch to let the operator know he is being screwed around.

I have a range that I can go out to 2200 yds. The target is sitting on a flat spot about twenty yds in front of a vertical bank. The TERRIPIN will consistently range the 36 in by 36 in steel plate. I can move it up over the plate and range the rock wall behind it. Once in a while it will show two targets have been hit by flashing the nearest target first. You get the other target by activating a button on top.

You will just have to see one of these in action to really appreciate what they are capable of.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best LRF under $1000 for ranging steel to 1200 yds

Thanks for that info Augustus. I have to admit that I haven't researched them that thoroughly. I learned a long time ago not to pick up things I don't have the money for...

I do think you may have answered my question though... it sounds as though the Terrapin has some rather sophisticated return analyzing algorithms that aid in target differentiation that is clearly lacking in the lower priced units.

John