Best Plan for Keeping a Suppressed AR as Clean as Possible( For as Many Rounds as Possible)

[1911hombre]

I have a pile of small frame gas guns and I shoot them suppressed almost always. I can take a freshly cleaned gun out and shoot 80 rounds through it and the BCG, upper receiver, buffer tube, FCG are all trashed, super filthy. I have been using Shooter's Choice FP-10 for a few years now, and I am a bit of an over-oiler, I guess. Everything is gummy and black as soot. I shoot a lot of LC M193 and some IMI 77gr. and Black Hills 77 OTM. Any meaningful ways to slow down the fouling? Suppressor is a Surefire RC-2, and all guns are DI.

 

[mheimer_45]

My advice is to find cleaner ammo, but I’m not running DI guns. The majority of my ammo is ADI 69 grain. I’ll take a gun out and put 50-75 rounds thru it at a time and only cleaning every 4th or 5th time. But I do run a patch down the barrel after every session just to keep lube in the barrel.

Is IMI that dirty? Been wanting to try it for awhile.

 

[Huskydriver]

Don't shoot it supressed....

 

[Shoots 700's]

Just keep it wet and it’ll shoot

 

[1911hombre]

Just keep it wet and it’ll shoot

Yup, I don't have any problems that way; everything shoots and continues to shoot with a little oil on the carrier.

 

[alamo5000]

I use grease on my guns (vs oil) and it works a lot better. That said I shot one AR until I couldn't remember or see what brand my bcg was. It was still running strong with zero issues but I wiped it down nonetheless.

The problem with some oils is that the lighter components evaporate off and it can happen faster in the open air system with the heat from the rifle.

Get some good gun grease and the guns will still be dirty but they will still work a good bit more than what what you are getting now.

 

[Bigjake83]

I have a pile of small frame gas guns and I shoot them suppressed almost always. I can take a freshly cleaned gun out and shoot 80 rounds through it and the BCG, upper receiver, buffer tube, FCG are all trashed, super filthy. I have been using Shooter's Choice FP-10 for a few years now, and I am a bit of an over-oiler, I guess. Everything is gummy and black as soot. I shoot a lot of LC M193 and some IMI 77gr. and Black Hills 77 OTM. Any meaningful ways to slow down the fouling? Suppressor is a Surefire RC-2, and all guns are DI.

It's just the nature of the beast brother.

I've stayed far away from suppressors, just always seems like a solution looking for a problem. That said I'm about to cross over to the Dirty Side. I was lucky enough to track down a HUXWRX FLOW 762 Ti, it's actually the first suppressor I've been interested in owning.

 

[91Eunozs]

I only shoot suppressed…trying to save what little hearing I have left.

I’ve tried NiBx coatings, and all the other snake oil pseudoscience stuff out there, and most of it helps to some extent, but honestly, just regular cleanings, and running it wet is the reality.

One that shocked me because it seemed like the most cheesy sales pitch ever, and the pics on their website literally look like someone just sprayed rainbow glitter paint onto the bolt carriers. It was some stuff called “XSlick” from PM Tactical… I expected it to be pure crap, but it absolutely allows the carbon and crud to literally just wipe off my BCG between sessions at the range.

I wouldn’t have believe it worked if I didn’t have one myself…. Just ordered another as a matter of fact. Will see if this one works as well.

https://pmtactical.com/xslick-c-158-premium-ar15-m16-bolt-carrier-group-bcg-od-green/

 

[B y r o n]

Convert to piston system and less blow back into action.

 

[BeckOlu]

I’ve had great luck with the superlative arms gas blocks on their flow vent setting. Does pretty well with regular suppressors and crazy well with flow through suppressors. That system paired with my OSS can shoots 100 rounds and doesn’t even look like the gun came to the range that day.

 

[msstate56]

Convert to piston system and less blow back into action.

Lies. I’ve got an Sig MCX that runs dirtier than any DI AR I’ve ever used. Don’t worry about the gun being dirty. Just keep pouring the oil to it. All my semi autos are suppressed full time. They are completely filthy, but don’t skip a beat because I keep them wet with oil.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Get a Huxwrx flow through suppressor.

 

[Ape_Factory]

It's really down to the powder being used. I've not done a ton of experimentation with powders in terms of cleanliness as I'm more concerned with the the velocity/accuracy. I do find my piston POF P415 runs cleaner than my DI guns and more so with flow-through suppressors like Huxwrx vs. traditional high back pressure cans. Like misstate56, My Sig LT, despite being piston, runs dirty. It's overgassed. On the grease/oil front, I've been using Lucas products and find the grease tends to gum things up so I've switched to the oil for now. I'll likely try a synthetic oil like Motul with a pure ester base next but not expecting miracles.

Edit: I have noticed that vihtavouri powders, overall, have been cleaner than most.

 

[MarshallDodge]

....

Edit: I have noticed that vihtavouri powders, overall, have been cleaner than most.

N133 and N135 are much cleaner than the ball powders used in most 5.56 ammo.

 

[VargmatII]

I am not a seasoned AR shooter but I do run a suppressor on pretty much everything I own. I have two friends running companys working on suppressors so I do a bit of testing for them.

As for my AR, a regular small frame in 223 which I have tried 7 different suppressors on during the past 6 months shooting just over 1000 rounds. I will say that the amount of backpressure and thus crap blowing back into the rifle varies way more than I would have though it could.
Some suppressors are horrible, while some are decent and flow through suppressors are by far the best ticket on an AR.

Since I live in Sweden and the suppressor market here is completely different to that in the US. I cant really say which one you should get. But from what I have found you can go from a regular type suppressor which gives you puffs of gas in the face on every shot and lots of soot in the rifle and your brass will look like its drenched in acid to no gas in the face, not too much soot in the rifle and brass looking decent and anywhere in between depending on your choise of suppressor.

 

[Ape_Factory]

N133 and N135 are much cleaner than the ball powders used in most 5.56 ammo.

Haven't tried those yet. Been messing with N550 for heavy supers in 5.56 and with 308 as well and N120 for 300 blackout subs. Using their pistol powder too but can't remember which one off the top of my head (N330 maybe). I did notice it ran cleaner than Sport Pistol which is a pretty clean powder. I can tell you CFE BLK is as dirty as they come but man, it cycles everything so it's a trade-off. CFE seems to be the polar opposite of VV in terms of clean burning powders.

 

[supercorndogs]

Convert to piston system and less blow back into action.

Exept when you shooting suppressed most of the chamber and action fouling is coming down the barrel. Not the gas tube.

 

[hlee]

Here I am taking all of 15 minutes to wipe the bolt/carrier/upper and re-lube after range sessions.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Here I am taking all of 15 minutes to wipe the bolt/carrier/upper and re-lube after range sessions.

Savage.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Here I am taking all of 15 minutes to wipe the bolt/carrier/upper and re-lube after range sessions.

Might as well live on the edge, spend 5 minutes every 4th range trip!

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Put a little oil on the moving parts and ignore the rest until next year or the year after. This isn't the big green weenie, you don't have to scrape the carbon off the crown with a cleaning rod.

 

[M4orturnate]

I have a pile of small frame gas guns and I shoot them suppressed almost always. I can take a freshly cleaned gun out and shoot 80 rounds through it and the BCG, upper receiver, buffer tube, FCG are all trashed, super filthy. I have been using Shooter's Choice FP-10 for a few years now, and I am a bit of an over-oiler, I guess. Everything is gummy and black as soot. I shoot a lot of LC M193 and some IMI 77gr. and Black Hills 77 OTM. Any meaningful ways to slow down the fouling? Suppressor is a Surefire RC-2, and all guns are DI.

After my 6k round test of not cleaning a suppressed Ar I'm of the opinion cleaning isn't needed. Literally 6k rounds of dirty ass ammo and it never had a issue. My fde receivers were black with carbon it was so nasty but I'd just give it a few drops of oil every 500 or so and it just kept going. I only clean precision guns now. Ymmv

 

[B y r o n]

So piston guns run cleaner without a can so why wouldn't they be cleaner with a can? Guess cutting down the gas to the action doesn't mean anything.

 

[B y r o n]

delete duplicate post

 

[B y r o n]

Exept when you shooting suppressed most of the chamber and action fouling is coming down the barrel. Not the gas tube.

So the cartridge expands to seal the chamber when the round is fired, if this is the case it would cut down on fouling the action. Gas coming down a DI setup would add to the fouling while piston system would cut it down. You want to show me your proof that the more fouling comes down the barrel and not a gas tube?

 

[Longshot231]

Get a Huxwrx flow through suppressor.

^^^^^^^ this!

I have about a half dozen of the older OSS (aka HUXWRX) suppressors. My gas guns don't get any dirtier than they were before suppressors.

In addition, none of them ever required weapons modifications.

These videos accurately depict my experience with the OSS / HUXWRX suppressors.

 

[RTH1800]

What I have done.

Tune your gas system so you are not overgassing.

Limit the # of rifles you are shooting/cleaning.

Use clean burning ammo.

Clean as needed.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So the cartridge expands to seal the chamber when the round is fired, if this is the case it would cut down on fouling the action. Gas coming down a DI setup would add to the fouling while piston system would cut it down. You want to show me your proof that the more fouling comes down the barrel and not a gas tube?

LOL

 

[YotaEer]

all good info here regarding solutions - flow through can, adj gas block, cleaner propellant etc. but I will say that the DLC coated BCG i have is much easier to clean than all the others ones. Thats with the same everything, just swapping out the BCG to see if there was a noticeable difference. There is IMHO

 

[Snuby642]

You can run it dirty till it drips out the magwell all summer.

But come time of year for freezing temperatures you need to clean that off.

My sons were always griping I cleaned mine too much so one year I quit cleaning my carbine.
My glases would be covered in glop.

Suppressed gets to be a mess


All fun and games till the temperature hit about 22 F.

Failure to chamber.

 

[tekmann2377]

There is no way to avoid the mess with shooting suppressed. Even cleaner ammo or a properly gasse weapon is still messy.

You need better lube, more of it, and more frequent application. A good lube is 50/50 ATF/Mobil 1. Use synthetic high temp grease for the bolt lugs and cam pin. Wipe the BCG down and reapply heavily after each shooting session. This will keep all of the fouling soft and in suspension. Even if dirty, this will have

This is coming from someone who has over 10k+ rounds through suppressed AR's. This is so effective that I literally shot a barrel out without a single malfunction without a single detailed cleaning of the BCG.

 

[Obi-WanKannoli]

Piston system with a venting gas block and a longer buffer system like the BCM or VLTOR. You don't make it all dissappear but it seriously cuts down on what ends up in the reciever. Gas buster CH's are a bandaid.

The name of the game is to slow things down, vent whatever gas you can from entering the chamber, and increase unlock time for the bolt.

My most recent build runs a SA Piston kit with LMT enhanced Bolt and a BCM buffer system.

Edit:

Sf rc2 is a pretty damn high back pressure can, you are up against it with that.

 

[alamo5000]

So the cartridge expands to seal the chamber when the round is fired, if this is the case it would cut down on fouling the action. Gas coming down a DI setup would add to the fouling while piston system would cut it down. You want to show me your proof that the more fouling comes down the barrel and not a gas tube?

It's common knowledge. No need to provide anything.

 

[B y r o n]

It's common knowledge. No need to provide anything.

If it is so common, care to provide a link to this information?

Here is a link from Silencer Central that counters what you are saying.

 

[1911hombre]

A lot of good suggestions and tips here! I have started the process of getting my gas management figured out. First gun I've been working on in that regard is a Noveske Ares with a P/W Surefire, also pinned GB. Went to a BRT EZ-Tune gas tube and an LMT Enhanced carrier. Ejects at about 3:30 suppressed now. I'm pretty happy with that. Gonna try a different lube, also. I would also like to try one of these HuxWrx suppressors out. I've got Surefire Muzzle devices on everything so maybe an RC-3 would be an option, although spendy. Thanks for all the ideas!

 

[msgriff]

So the cartridge expands to seal the chamber when the round is fired, if this is the case it would cut down on fouling the action. Gas coming down a DI setup would add to the fouling while piston system would cut it down. You want to show me your proof that the more fouling comes down the barrel and not a gas tube?

On an M16, I believe that there is around 200 psi of residual bore pressure at the moment the case separates from the chamber walls. Obviously, some of that gas will travel directly into the upper until pressure equalizes. This was brought up again recently in a thread drift on another gun board. I'll send you a link if wanted, but unless you know the history of the poster, it might not satisfy your proof requirement.
There is also this Tromix select fire build with crossed gas tubes. It inadvertently showed how residual bore pressure can directly affect BCG travel after the bolt unlocks, as the gas ports had to be opened up before it would function (the individual weapons functioned properly in their original form).

 

[alamo5000]

If it is so common, care to provide a link to this information?

Here is a link from Silencer Central that counters what you are saying.

There is literally nothing in that article that even talks about suppression at all.
Because it says "promotes a cleaner and cooler system" in general terms, does not apply universally to everything.

In a general case between the two systems whatever the percentage is of gas that goes back in a DI system is not going back in a piston system. Ok, fair enough.

There are many more pros and cons, but the article doesn't even address suppression at all. In both cases when you introduce a restriction on gas flowing out of the muzzle it is going to send more stuff in the equal and opposite direction.

If you have a pipe that is capped on both ends, and then you pump up the gas inside of it to 50,000 psi, which end of the pipe has more or less pressure?

Now assume you can safely take off one end cap at a time while it's under pressure. When you remove the cap, which way does the gas flow? What if you can take both ends off at the same time?

The main difference between my analogy and a rifle is that the pressure in a gun barrel increases because of a controlled chemical burn that is contained.

When you add a suppressor to any semi auto system you are effectively increasing the dwell time and time under pressure.

Let's just say for kicks that a rifle is tuned for the bolt to open 10 micro seconds after the bullet leaves the bore. Now let's say you add a suppressor and that creates a situation where it delays the uncorking effect from the barrel by say 12 micro seconds. That would create a situation where technically the bolt opens while it's still under somewhat of an amount of pressure, thus dumping gas back towards the shooter. This will happen regardless of the operating system whether it be DI or piston.

In a laboratory the gas coming back through the gas tube on a DI rifle might be marginally more than a piston system. But in a real world case the gas from the DI gas tube is totally dwarfed by the volume of gas coming back down the bore.

That said, is a piston system cleaner? Maybe some but that's about the same as calculating gas mileage for a car based on if it is waxed or not waxed.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

All gas operated rifles begin unlocking while the bore is pressurized. The silencer is a pressure vessel on the end of the barrel that forces pressure back down the bore as the bullet uncorks and subsequently passes the baffles. Piston guns are every bit as gassy as DI, if not more. DI guns are nearly always quieter than piston guns. There are exceptions but this is generally true broadly.

 

[JoeZ]

There is no way to avoid the mess with shooting suppressed. Even cleaner ammo or a properly gasse weapon is still messy.

You need better lube, more of it, and more frequent application. A good lube is 50/50 ATF/Mobil 1. Use synthetic high temp grease for the bolt lugs and cam pin. Wipe the BCG down and reapply heavily after each shooting session. This will keep all of the fouling soft and in suspension. Even if dirty, this will have

This is coming from someone who has over 10k+ rounds through suppressed AR's. This is so effective that I literally shot a barrel out without a single malfunction without a single detailed cleaning of the BCG.

This ^^^^^

For grease I use Amsoil Syn Polymeric moly bearing off road. Resists pound out, resists washout, good to -30° F. Bolt carrier guides, bolt lugs, cam pins.

For oil I use air tool oil. Corrosive resist, water emulsification resist, low temp. Oil everything else. When it's real cold, I brush the grease on the BCG guides and bolt lugs with a bit of oil.

About once a year I'll leave my AR10 outside on the coldest night with the ammo (still in the case though). Coldest test I've run is -14° F. I've gotten frost bite on my nose a few times but it runs fine. One time it was so cold someone's M1 Garand stopped running. He did get it going again.

 

[Eggman]

so, assuming 2 rifles, same everything except one piston one DI.

and assuming same pressure in both barrels, you guys are saying that the rifle that vents the gas used to run the action of the rifle DIRECTLY into the action of the rifle is cleaner than the one that vents the gas used to run the action up near the front of the barrel (nowhere near the action)?

and then adding a suppressor to both actually makes the piston gun even worse?

seems very odd to me.

where is this extra gas coming from on the piston gun?

I mean, the DI gun actually dumps extra gas right into the action on top of the volume of gas coming back down the barrel.....? isnt that extra gas that is not present on the piston gun?

I have shot suppressed DI guns to failure, had to mortar the action open and bent the charging handle. I even started carrying a little bottle of oil to classes to keep them running. that disgusting sludge, basically polishing compound of carbon and oil, is a problem, continued applications of oil is only a temporary band aid.

I got sick of it and bought a piston gun, havent had that problem since.

not to mention how much nicer it is to not have all that gas in your face when shooting strings, you know cause, so much more gas is coming down the barrel than through the gas tube..... I know, disclaimer, yes some gas still comes back into your face on a suppressed piston gun, but NOTHING even close to a suppressed DI gun. not looking at you gas buster charging handles.

which is also strange, since more gas is coming down the barrel than the gas tube, right?

on a seperate note, I always found that the dryer the better on DI guns, oil just captures the filth. grease seems to work better for me on my DI guns. tekmann2377 and JoeZ nailed it on that recipe, lot of guys been using that for a long time and it just works

decades ago a company (cant recall who) sold a dry lube in a black spray can that dried white in the parts and you could wipe the carrier film off and it left a slick dry coat of lube on. that shit was magic, regardless of the temps it just worked and kept the rifle way cleaner. wish it was still made today.

 

[GUNNER10]

Generally speaking, DI AR's really dont have an issue running multiple combat loadouts suppressed under a normal firing schedule. DI AR's are going to get dirty with an older design of can. its not really going to have an impact on performance.

If one wants to reduce the amount of fouling that gets into the action during firing, they may want to consider one of the latest generations of low back pressure cans. Additionally, one can also pair a low pressure can, with a piston upper.

I was heavily biased against pistons until I picked up an LMT 12 inch piston kit and shot it with my sandman k, and was blown away, and at this point, I think pistons are probably the best way forward for short/suppressed setups. I still lean towards DI for 14.5/16 inch general propose setups.

I think a lot of this can be mitigated by taking 15 to 20 minutes at the end of a range day to wipe down your stuff and perform a minimal amount of maintenance.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I traded for a PWS piston ar10 from a member here on the hide a few years back. When I was doing my research before making the trade, I came across 2 different people somewhere on the internet who were both hog hunters in Texas and had decided independently to take their PWS ar10 rifles and shoot them without cleaning them and see how far they could get without a malfunction. Both of them just kept adding oil and running them wet, and both of them had round counts over 5k rounds without an issue. So...... clean them because you're a gentleman, not because they require it..

 

[TonyTheTiger]

because you're a gentleman,

Well that's where you're all wrong.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Well that's where your all wrong.

"You're".

 

[tucaz]

There is no way to avoid the mess with shooting suppressed. Even cleaner ammo or a properly gasse weapon is still messy.

You need better lube, more of it, and more frequent application. A good lube is 50/50 ATF/Mobil 1. Use synthetic high temp grease for the bolt lugs and cam pin. Wipe the BCG down and reapply heavily after each shooting session. This will keep all of the fouling soft and in suspension. Even if dirty, this will have

This is coming from someone who has over 10k+ rounds through suppressed AR's. This is so effective that I literally shot a barrel out without a single malfunction without a single detailed cleaning of the BCG.

i like ATF fluid alot and then read something about its components that were supposed to be kinda nasty to inhale being cookd off from suppressed shooting. i think it was from a guy in the oil industry on arf…ya i know. haha

is there any truth to that?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

"You're".

Ha, just re read my post and fixed it. Hoped I got it before someone noticed..

 

[hlee]

so, assuming 2 rifles, same everything except one piston one DI.

and assuming same pressure in both barrels, you guys are saying that the rifle that vents the gas used to run the action of the rifle DIRECTLY into the action of the rifle is cleaner than the one that vents the gas used to run the action up near the front of the barrel (nowhere near the action)?

and then adding a suppressor to both actually makes the piston gun even worse?

seems very odd to me.

where is this extra gas coming from on the piston gun?

I mean, the DI gun actually dumps extra gas right into the action on top of the volume of gas coming back down the barrel.....? isnt that extra gas that is not present on the piston gun?

I have shot suppressed DI guns to failure, had to mortar the action open and bent the charging handle. I even started carrying a little bottle of oil to classes to keep them running. that disgusting sludge, basically polishing compound of carbon and oil, is a problem, continued applications of oil is only a temporary band aid.

I got sick of it and bought a piston gun, havent had that problem since.

not to mention how much nicer it is to not have all that gas in your face when shooting strings, you know cause, so much more gas is coming down the barrel than through the gas tube..... I know, disclaimer, yes some gas still comes back into your face on a suppressed piston gun, but NOTHING even close to a suppressed DI gun. not looking at you gas buster charging handles.

which is also strange, since more gas is coming down the barrel than the gas tube, right?

on a seperate note, I always found that the dryer the better on DI guns, oil just captures the filth. grease seems to work better for me on my DI guns. tekmann2377 and JoeZ nailed it on that recipe, lot of guys been using that for a long time and it just works

decades ago a company (cant recall who) sold a dry lube in a black spray can that dried white in the parts and you could wipe the carrier film off and it left a slick dry coat of lube on. that shit was magic, regardless of the temps it just worked and kept the rifle way cleaner. wish it was still made today.

I’m not reading all that, but no. With a suppressor attached, the gas being dumped into the action through the gas tube is insignificant relative to the gas coming back down the barrel, because it was trapped by the suppressor.

(How do I know this? Because I shoot the same di rifles both suppressed and unsuppressed. Unsuppressed rifles don’t coat the action and magazine and ammo in the magazine in carbon fouling. But even a single shot with a suppressor will cover the ammunition in fouling- even when the gas system is tuned for suppressed shooting. Where did it come from? Oh, yeah, the barrel with a bore diameter that is substantially larger than the gas tube.)

In that sense, the comparison between di and piston is weak, because the amount of fouling is dominated by that from the barrel, not the gas system. People say dumb shit like “I shoot a piston gun because I don’t like getting gassed out when suppressed, and they run cleaner” when the reality is the difference is insignificant- when suppressors are in the mix.

 

[tucaz]

I’m not reading all that, but no. With a suppressor attached, the gas being dumped into the action through the gas tube is insignificant relative to the gas coming back down the barrel, because it was trapped by the suppressor.

(How do I know this? Because I shoot the same di rifles both suppressed and unsuppressed. Unsuppressed rifles don’t coat the action and magazine and ammo in the magazine in carbon fouling. But even a single shot with a suppressor will cover the ammunition in fouling- even when the gas system is tuned for suppressed shooting. Where did it come from? Oh, yeah, the barrel with a bore diameter that is substantially larger than the gas tube.)

In that sense, the comparison between di and piston is weak, because the amount of fouling is dominated by that from the barrel, not the gas system. People say dumb shit like “I shoot a piston gun because I don’t like getting gassed out when suppressed, and they run cleaner” when the reality is the difference is insignificant- when suppressors are in the mix.

not only that! but my older LWRV DMR 18” with its NiB coated BCG would tarnish so bad it created drag. took some good cleaning with brasso to clean up. never put a can on that upper again.