Best way to adjust to MIL thinking from MOA thinking

[checkmate101]

I have been trying to get a better handle on MILs. I am aware that the MIL/MOA debate is a groaner, but for the reasons of wanting to be able to communicate in MILs I was wondering if there is a good resource to reference.

What I currently understand:
-both angular measurements, one is not superior to the other, just different
-MOA = 1.047" at 100 yards and 10.47" at 1000, MIL = 3.6" at 100 yards and 36" at 1000, again, not better, just different.

What I am struggling with:
-I suppose it is like trying to explain my height in feet vs meters. I understand feet well because I grew up with it. I "get" meters, but my brain has to basically convert meters to feet first to really grasp what I am dealing with. Or like learning an additional language. I first have to translate to the English meaning before I can understand what was said.

I would love to be able to be fluent in MILs and don't know how to change my way of thinking. I probably have simplified MOA for too long as well by thinking to much in IPHY rather than TRUE MOA. I'm sure there is a post somewhere explaining this, but I haven't stumbled across it yet, so any direction is appreciated. I have thought long and hard about asking this question and I was really glad SH had a place for "stupid questions". At the end of the day, I am sure just going out a practicing with something is the ultimate answer, that said I don't have any MIL tools yet to mess with. I am hoping to be getting into a MIL/MIL scope at some point and want to start grasping the concepts.

 

[Huskydriver]

What kind of reticle do you have in your scope?

 

[checkmate101]

Still haven't got a scope for this yet.

Been looking at:
Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27 with the MIL reticle
Vortex Viper PST gen II with ERB-7c MRAD
Bushnell LRHS (used of course)
Meopta Optika 6 4.5-27 (not really sure on reticles here as I haven't found many good examples to wade through yet, haven't found Meopta's website to give very good reticle pics. Some through the scope pics on SH are helpful, but this is an area I need to explore more first.)

In general, I am not sure if I really want a christmas tree style reticle or not. Similar to the review that Bigjimfish's review of the optika 6 5-30, I am probably on side of wanting a minimal tree if one at all. That said, some of the scopes I have looked at don't really have any other options but I like the features of the scopes in general... so maybe the tree section would be a compromise I am willing to make. Still not sure.

 

[Gee Kay]

Jump on the everyday sniper podcast and go back to the first episodes. Frank talks about MILs vs MOA and does the math. Easyish to a point, but practice makes perfect.

0.261 is quarter MOA
0.36 is .1 MIL

1.047 is 1MOA
3 clicks on a MIL scope is 1.08 MOA

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The key is to stop thinking in linear measurement in every aspect except distance.

The average uninitiated MOA shooter goes through this thought process....

"My drop at 400 yards is 36 inches, so 36 inches at 400 yards is about 8.5 MOA, so 1/4 MOA clicks means I need 34 clicks".... the same thought process is also commonly used for a miss correction...e.g. ( I missed by about 6 inches so....etc.)

The proper way to think of it is this..."My 400 yard drop is 8.5 MOA, so I need to dial 8.5 MOA...or, I missed by 2 MOA, I need to make a 2 MOA correction" (How do you know that? Because your scope has a handy dandy ruler built right into it )

The proper use of MILS and MOA is exactly the same. A) Memorize your drops in the angular measurement. B) Measure your misses in the angular measurement. C) Dial or hold that angular measurement.

 

[JBoomhauer]

What skookum said is best.

One thing that may be messing you up is trying to convert meters to feet/inches

Mil is just 1/1000 of any unit as it is angular. So a mil is also 1 foot at 1000feet. Or in your examples above.
100 yards, one mil is .3 feet at 300 feet.
1000 yards, one mil is 3 feet at 3000 feet.

 

[Mike Casselton]

What Skookum said is absolutely spot on.
It took me about two minutes behind the wheel to figure it out.

Pretend your reticle is a ruler (doesn't matter if it's inches, metric or any other system) dial your matching turret to the drop or drift. Easy, peasy.

 

[Alabusa]

The key is to stop thinking in linear measurement in every aspect except distance.

The average uninitiated MOA shooter goes through this thought process....

"My drop at 400 yards is 36 inches, so 36 inches at 400 yards is about 8.5 MOA, so 1/4 MOA clicks means I need 34 clicks".... the same thought process is also commonly used for a miss correction...e.g. ( I missed by about 6 inches so....etc.)

The proper way to think of it is this..."My 400 yard drop is 8.5 MOA, so I need to dial 8.5 MOA...or, I missed by 2 MOA, I need to dial a 2 MOA correction" (How do you know that? Because your scope has a handy dandy ruler built right into it )

The proper use of MILS and MOA is exactly the same. A) Memorize your drops in the angular measurement. B) Measure your misses in the angular measurement. C) Dial or hold that angular measurement.

Can not be said better than this.

 

[lash]

The key is to stop thinking in linear measurement in every aspect except distance.

The average uninitiated MOA shooter goes through this thought process....

"My drop at 400 yards is 36 inches, so 36 inches at 400 yards is about 8.5 MOA, so 1/4 MOA clicks means I need 34 clicks".... the same thought process is also commonly used for a miss correction...e.g. ( I missed by about 6 inches so....etc.)

The proper way to think of it is this..."My 400 yard drop is 8.5 MOA, so I need to dial 8.5 MOA...or, I missed by 2 MOA, I need to dial a 2 MOA correction" (How do you know that? Because your scope has a handy dandy ruler built right into it )

The proper use of MILS and MOA is exactly the same. A) Memorize your drops in the angular measurement. B) Measure your misses in the angular measurement. C) Dial or hold that angular measurement.

^^This^^
When I saw the title of your thread, before reading any responses, I knew this was the answer that you needed. After I read your OP, I absolutely knew this was your answer. Stop trying to measure and convert.

Get a reticle that allows you to read your target size and any corrections on the reticle and you will have what you need, whether shooting in MIL or MOA. This can be as simple as a Mil-Dot/Mil Hash reticle (yes, these still work, though not in favor now) or some other design with hash marks or method to measure.

What Skookum said is absolutely spot on.
It took me about two minutes behind the wheel to figure it out.

Pretend your reticle is a ruler (doesn't matter if it's inches, metric or any other system) dial your matching turret to the drop or drift. Easy, peasy.

This is still your answer, as long as you are using 1st focal plane or are using a 2nd focal plane at the correct power to measure your adjustment 1:1.

 

[Steel head]

The key is to stop thinking in linear measurement in every aspect except distance.

The average uninitiated MOA shooter goes through this thought process....

"My drop at 400 yards is 36 inches, so 36 inches at 400 yards is about 8.5 MOA, so 1/4 MOA clicks means I need 34 clicks".... the same thought process is also commonly used for a miss correction...e.g. ( I missed by about 6 inches so....etc.)

The proper way to think of it is this..."My 400 yard drop is 8.5 MOA, so I need to dial 8.5 MOA...or, I missed by 2 MOA, I need to make a 2 MOA correction" (How do you know that? Because your scope has a handy dandy ruler built right into it )

The proper use of MILS and MOA is exactly the same. A) Memorize your drops in the angular measurement. B) Measure your misses in the angular measurement. C) Dial or hold that angular measurement.

This x 1000!

 

[z7.jled]

How to adjust, just do it, a free ballistic app or web page will help generate a ballistic chart in Mils or Moa, pick your flavor and go shoot, you need to be able to spot your shots in some way, then adjust dope. I have to stop and do extra math and thinking to figure out how many inches I was high/low etc. that is the hard part

 

[Deleted member 113831]

There are only a couple of times when you need to do any kind of conversion math.

A) When "milling" a target to range it, but that is a whole other conversation and the math isn't any easier for MOA then MILS, just a different formula.

B) If shooting paper at a distance where bullet holes can't be seen or measured with the reticle accurately. Upon going to check the target, you will then have to know the size of a MIL or MOA at that distance to figure your adjustment. This is most often used when truing your BC to your ballistic program if you are really trying to get an exact measurement.

 

[USSRangerSM]

Great info!

 

[rustyinbend]

Still haven't got a scope for this yet.

Been looking at:
Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27 with the MIL reticle

I have the Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29 in both MOA ( 6.5 Creedmoor) and Mil (300-WM). It's an awesome scope and gave me my 1-Mile bucket-list shot this year. Great clarity - perfect tracking - solid all the way around. Also a great price-performer compared to other long distance high-mag scopes in it's class. You should peer through one before making your decision.

 

[Steel head]

I have the Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29 in both MOA ( 6.5 Creedmoor) and Mil (300-WM). It's an awesome scope and gave me my 1-Mile bucket-list shot this year. Great clarity - perfect tracking - solid all the way around. Also a great price-performer compared to other long distance high-mag scopes in it's class. You should peer through one before making your decision.

I got to compare my Cronus closely to a Nightforce ATACR 5x25 a few times this year and the glass loses nothing to it.
In fact the only thing I definitely liked on the ATACR more was the size of the numbers on the dial.

 

[checkmate101]

The key is to stop thinking in linear measurement in every aspect except distance.

The average uninitiated MOA shooter goes through this thought process....

"My drop at 400 yards is 36 inches, so 36 inches at 400 yards is about 8.5 MOA, so 1/4 MOA clicks means I need 34 clicks".... the same thought process is also commonly used for a miss correction...e.g. ( I missed by about 6 inches so....etc.)

The proper way to think of it is this..."My 400 yard drop is 8.5 MOA, so I need to dial 8.5 MOA...or, I missed by 2 MOA, I need to make a 2 MOA correction" (How do you know that? Because your scope has a handy dandy ruler built right into it )

The proper use of MILS and MOA is exactly the same. A) Memorize your drops in the angular measurement. B) Measure your misses in the angular measurement. C) Dial or hold that angular measurement.

This was a lightbulb moment for me. Thanks so much, exactly the answer I needed. I have used a SFP old style MIL dot scope, which is about my only experience with this type of shooting. I don't always have it on the power needed to MIL properly when prairie dog shooting. Thanks again for all the replies here. This is exactly what I enjoy so much about online forums. Huge thanks all.

 

[sa-shooter]

Another point some seem to miss is that Mil works with any linear measure.
1mil @
1000m is 1m
1000y is 1y
1000" is 1"
And so on for feet, cm, miles or furlong.

So 1/2Mil at 500 yards, it's 1/2 yard. 0.2mil at 500 is 0.1yards. But the trick is to not convert it. Just use it for what it is. 0.2mil or 0.5 mil. The answer remains the same without needing to think about it.

 

[Wssickta]

Great info here

 

[Long Range 338]

This was a lightbulb moment for me. Thanks so much, exactly the answer I needed. I have used a SFP old style MIL dot scope, which is about my only experience with this type of shooting. I don't always have it on the power needed to MIL properly when prairie dog shooting. Thanks again for all the replies here. This is exactly what I enjoy so much about online forums. Huge thanks all.

Its a lot harder to sit and explain than it actually is to get behind the scope and shoot - at least that is how my brain works. It literally is like learning another language and in that sense it just requires practice. Get behind the scoped rifle and shoot, measure targets and adjustments with your reticle and adjust accordingly. A couple of hours behind the rifle doing some shooting and you will be well underway. Also having somebody else to communicate with while shooting (calling shots and adjustments) who knows mils makes the process very easy.

Skookum pretty much nailed it.

 

[308pirate]

I have never understood why people have trouble with this shit.

Let me relate this to something everyone can understand: driving a car.

Let's say you're driving in Europe in a rental car. The speed limit sign says 100 km/h. Do you:
A) try to convert that speed to miles per hour, only to look down and realize the speedometer only reads kilometers per hour? or
B) press on the accelerator until the speedometer needle points to 100?

Same car, same road, same country in Europe. You pass a road sign that says your destination is 50 kilometers ahead. You're still driving at the 100 km/h speed limit and are wondering when you'll get there. Do you:
A) convert 100 km/h to mph and 50 km to miles then divide distance over speed? or
B) do you divide 50 km into 100 km/h and figure out that you'll be there in 30 minutes?

 

[Steel head]

I have never understood why people have trouble with this shit.

Let me relate this to something everyone can understand: driving a car.

Let's say you're driving in Europe in a rental car. The speed limit sign says 100 km/h. Do you:
A) try to convert that speed to miles per hour, only to look down and realize the speedometer only reads kilometers per hour? or
B) press on the accelerator until the speedometer needle points to 100?

Same car, same road, same country in Europe. You pass a road sign that says your destination is 50 kilometers ahead. You're still driving at the 100 km/h speed limit and are wondering when you'll get there. Do you:
A) convert 100 km/h to mph and 50 km to miles then divide distance over speed? or
B) do you divide 50 km into 100 km/h and figure out that you'll be there in 30 minutes?

I used to ruck that we bought in Canada.
I had to convert kph to mph and made a lil cheat sheet and taped it to the dash.

I’m currently working with a few
Friends who are new to long distance shooting.
They’re constantly trying to complicate things.
I keep telling them it’s not that difficult and not very complicated.

When your comfortable with this stuff it’s easy to get frustrated with the silly questions but 10 or so years ago I had those same questions.

 

[checkmate101]

I have never understood why people have trouble with this shit.

Let me relate this to something everyone can understand: driving a car.

Let's say you're driving in Europe in a rental car. The speed limit sign says 100 km/h. Do you:
A) try to convert that speed to miles per hour, only to look down and realize the speedometer only reads kilometers per hour? or
B) press on the accelerator until the speedometer needle points to 100?

Same car, same road, same country in Europe. You pass a road sign that says your destination is 50 kilometers ahead. You're still driving at the 100 km/h speed limit and are wondering when you'll get there. Do you:
A) convert 100 km/h to mph and 50 km to miles then divide distance over speed? or
B) do you divide 50 km into 100 km/h and figure out that you'll be there in 30 minutes?

For me it is lack of experience with any of it. I understand I overcomplicated it in my OP, however, until reading Skookum's post I hadn't thought along these lines at all. Like I said, lightbulb moment.

With all the choices on everything in this game with just the optics alone, I didn't want to make the wrong purchases and be frustrated with what I got myself into. Having an understanding of things before just dropping $$$ helps me make more informed decisions. It is a good thing SH has a place for stupid questions, like I mentioned.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Didn’t read all the responses so this has likely been covered but:

Forget everything. Forget linear values, forget moa, forget it all.

Then just be able to count to ten. Pennies and dimes.

Use your reticle to measure corrections for your zero and adjustments while shooting and don’t worry about what they equal in linear values.

I know what the linear values are at a given range, but I don’t care. When someone asks where the shot was, I’ll respond in mils. If they ask for linear value, I just tell them I don’t know, just what it was in the reticle (which is mainly true as it’s hard to judge linear at distance).

Take 10 people out with a spotter with no reticle and ask them how far you missed in feet or inches at something like 800 yds. You’ll get 10 very different answers.

Take those same people and have them measure it with a reticle and you’ll get damn near 10 of the same measurement or at least within .2

 

[Gee Kay]

I have never understood why people have trouble with this shit.

i suppose you dont pity those who own a scope with a mil reticle and moa turrets? LOL

 

[308pirate]

i suppose you dont pity those who own a scope with a mil reticle and moa turrets? LOL

I do, I used to be one a long time ago.

I mean I don't understand why people have trouble understanding that mils and minutes are both angular units describing the same exact thing.

 

[Gee Kay]

I do, I used to be one a long time ago.

I mean I don't understand why people have trouble understanding that mils and minutes are both angular units describing the same exact thing.

yes but i guess they want to know the conversion cause they've used one for so long and now using the other. it's about getting their heads around the different numbers used to hit the same target.

only time i shoot minutes is when my cousin comes around to shoot. i do it the easy way, get him to tell me how many minutes i need to shoot a distance and vis versa when he jumps behind my scopes.

thread starter did ask what the conversion was, hence why i posted the basic conversion from listening to Frank's podcast regarding mils vs moa.
that's all i remembered from it other than "someone being a cry-baby on youtube" about it LOL

 

[kriller134]

What amazes me is when people call out corrections in inches at distance. Like “you missed by 2 inches” at 650 yards. Mother fuckers got Superman eyes or something.

 

[stello1001]

What amazes me is when people call out corrections in inches at distance. Like “you missed by 2 inches” at 650 yards. Mother fuckers got Superman eyes or something.

Lmfao, exactly how I think about it. I mean, I didn't see anybody down at the target with a tape measure measuring the distance the shot was off sooooo...

If anything, I'll sometimes call a miss in reference to the size of the target if I am not spotting through a reticle. I'll say it was a miss half a plate to the right, 2 plates low, etc.

But the general consensus is, use the damn reticle in front of your eye and measure with that, regardless of mils or minutes...

 

[308pirate]

What amazes me is when people call out corrections in inches at distance. Like “you missed by 2 inches” at 650 yards. Mother fuckers got Superman eyes or something.

There's a reason why I'm so picky about who I shoot rifles with. I also fucking hate the people who call out the miss instead of the correction.

 

[308pirate]

yes but i guess they want to know the conversion cause they've used one for so long and now using the other. it's about getting their heads around the different numbers used to hit the same target.

Then I give them the same "American driving in Europe" example that I posted earlier in this thread.

If they still can't grasp that I assume they're stupid and move on.

 

[Eustice]

Don’t try to convert. Converting is an unnecessary task that will only cause problems with a rounding error or conversion error. Use your reticle to measure corrections. Make yourself a target that’s laid out in Mils. Then shoot groups and you’ll begin to see what being off by .2 or .3 looks like on a target.

 

[TreeGuy201]

Here"s a trick I do. If you have a second focal plane variable power scope with a milliradian reticle (mrad, mildot) and you are more comfortable using/thinking moa, then try this:
1) find the power that the manufacturer says the mil hash/dot is calibrated for - say 10X.
2) multiply that power by .9 to get a new power - so .9x10=9
3) set your scope to that new power and now each hash/dot is equal to 4moa.
4) if you double that new power -say to 18X - the hash/dot is now 2moa.

I do this sometimes when I don't feel like messing with a ballistic calculater, or feel like to using cm@meters. When my distances and targets are in in@yards, that the way I set my scope up and shoot.

 

[Racer88]

I do this sometimes when I don't feel like messing with a ballistic calculater, or feel like to using cm@meters. When my distances and targets are in in@yards, that the way I set my scope up and shoot.

???

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here"s a trick I do. If you have a second focal plane variable power scope with a milliradian reticle (mrad, mildot) and you are more comfortable using/thinking moa, then try this:
1) find the power that the manufacturer says the mil hash/dot is calibrated for - say 10X.
2) multiply that power by .9 to get a new power - so .9x10=9
3) set your scope to that new power and now each hash/dot is equal to 4moa.
4) if you double that new power -say to 18X - the hash/dot is now 2moa.

I do this sometimes when I don't feel like messing with a ballistic calculater, or feel like to using cm@meters. When my distances and targets are in in@yards, that the way I set my scope up and shoot.

........holy shit.

Excluding all he rest of this post being trash, a mil is 3.43 moa. So you’d be better off rounding to 3.5 or 3 than 4.

 

[Steel head]

The easy way to convert from MOA to mils

 

[TreeGuy201]

Here"s a trick I do.

@checkmate101 The previous poster was correct, its 3.43 moa per mil. I apologize for the incorrect info and quick math. So the correct numbers for mil scope calibrated to 10x is 8.5x gives you 4.00 moa per hash, and 17x gives you 2 moa per hash - pretty much using it like a MOA2.

@Dthomas3523 chill bro, have a beer or something.

 

[Dthomas3523]

@checkmate101 The previous poster was correct, its 3.43 moa per mil. I apologize for the incorrect info and quick math. So the correct numbers for mil scope calibrated to 10x is 8.5x gives you 4.00 moa per hash, and 17x gives you 2 moa per hash - pretty much using it like a MOA2.

@Dthomas3523 chill bro, have a beer or something.

Less posting an more reading for you. You’re giving out bad info and advice. You obviously used 1” at 100 yds as an moa.

The minute you start using linear values when talking mils or moa is when you need to educate yourself on the subject.

Cm and in, or feet or anything else is completely interchangeable with mils or moa. There is no cm/m and in/yds.

 

[308pirate]

Here"s a trick I do. If you have a second focal plane variable power scope with a milliradian reticle (mrad, mildot) and you are more comfortable using/thinking moa, then try this:
1) find the power that the manufacturer says the mil hash/dot is calibrated for - say 10X.
2) multiply that power by .9 to get a new power - so .9x10=9
3) set your scope to that new power and now each hash/dot is equal to 4moa.
4) if you double that new power -say to 18X - the hash/dot is now 2moa.

I do this sometimes when I don't feel like messing with a ballistic calculater, or feel like to using cm@meters. When my distances and targets are in in@yards, that the way I set my scope up and shoot.

 

[E-Tool]

Is this GD? I love the gifs.

 

[308pirate]

Is this GD? I love the gifs.

You're welcome

 

[CygnusX1]

So many great ideas shared here on this topic

My favorite: No conversion needed...Talk turret click language !.....So many clicks up or down...That's it.

And it's all in our Dope !
Our bullet BC allready tells us how much drop to expect at a given distance. That same Dope also tells us how many MOA/Mils to account for that drop.

It started out with a question on an easy way to convert MOA to Mils but I got a great trick on the easiest way to make corrections

Thanks guys

 

[Dthomas3523]

So many great ideas shared here on this topic

My favorite: No conversion needed...Talk turret click language !.....So many clicks up or down...That's it.

And it's all in our Dope !
Our bullet BC allready tells us how much drop to expect at a given distance. That same Dope also tells us how many MOA/Mils to account for that drop.

It started out with a question on an easy way to convert MOA to Mils but I got a great trick on the easiest way to make corrections

Thanks guys

Don’t use “click value.” Use fractions. 1/4moa, 2moa, .2 mil 2mil, 1/10, 2/10, etc etc.

Most optics are in .1mil or .25moa. But you will see some in .05mil and .125moa.

Click value is up to the person on the rifle to figure out. Speak in fractions.

 

[Steel head]

Don’t use “click value.” Use fractions. 1/4moa, 2moa, .2 mil 2mil, 1/10, 2/10, etc etc.

Most optics are in .1mil or .25moa. But you will see some in .05mil and .125moa.

Click value is up to the person on the rifle to figure out. Speak in fractions.

That’s my thinking as well.
If spotting I give a vertical and horizontal impact or correction depending on their preference

Up .5 mils
Left .8 mils

 

[CygnusX1]

Don’t use “click value.” Use fractions. 1/4moa, 2moa, .2 mil 2mil, 1/10, 2/10, etc etc.

Most optics are in .1mil or .25moa. But you will see some in .05mil and .125moa.

Click value is up to the person on the rifle to figure out. Speak in fractions.

Than you for the "precision" Dthomas3523.......Pun intended

 

[Flatwater77]

At my job I do a lot of measuring and calculating in decimal feet. Since I do a lot of thinking in 1/10s, I naturally gravitate towards MILS. I'm wondering if guys who run a tape measure all day naturally gravitate towards MOA since they spend a lot of their time thinking in divisions of four (1/4s)?

 

[seansmd]

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

A mil is simply 1000

To come up with a linear measurement you need a known value distance or size of target.

System or unit of measurement is irrelevant, you either divide or multiply by 1000.

1 mil = 1" @ 1000"
1 mil = 1' @ 1000'
1 mil = 1yd @ 1000yds
1 mil = 1m @ 1000m
1 mil = 1 potato @ 1000 potatoes

 

[Flatwater77]

I get that. I just meant that is more intuitive for me to spin a MIL turret or use a MIL reticle. I think it is because I am used to working in 1/10s, regardless of unit of measure. I was wondering if guys who regularly run tapes and think in terms of Quarters of units find it more intuitive to use a MOA turret. Probably a stupid question.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I dont, and I use a standard tape measure every day at work to measure things.

I dont think of mils as a measurement. I think of it more of a scale or point of reference or a growing angle from me to infinity.

I think of it like I had 2 lasers, one pointed at a target at 1000yds, the seconds pointed at 1yd off the target. At every distance point on the laser it is 1mil between them infinitely. All measurements taken on that line will be 1/1000th whatever.

Now picture the lasers shooting out of your eye with one lining up on the center and the other on the 1 mil mark in your scope shooting out to infinity.

The only time I ever use mils is when im looking through a mil reticle.

 

[Flatwater77]

Thanks for the reply! Looks like it was probably a bad hypothesis. I’m pretty good at generating them. Cheers.