Some time in the next year I would like to take a multi day wind reading course. Anyone take one they particularly recommend?
Training Courses Best Wind Reading course?
- Thread starter Crang
- Start date
It seems to be part of other classes but not specific. I could have sworn I had seen some offered before. There is one I found in NC at a place called The Range Complex that is a 2 day course. I havent seen any reviews on it. With time and travel its definitely a big commitment for something I havent been able to research much.
Interesting on Todds class. Will look into that.
Interesting on Todds class. Will look into that.
One way I’ve seen to demonstrate how wind moves is to get a couple instructors every 400m to a mile on line with a smoke grenade. Pop the smoke to see how the wind moves differently over diff terrain.
If you could generate your own smoke that works. I also believe in carrying a kestrel in your pocket when practicing. Doesn’t have to be ballistic. Wherever you want to, stop, estimate wind vector and speed, then check your work. Repeat to get better
If you could generate your own smoke that works. I also believe in carrying a kestrel in your pocket when practicing. Doesn’t have to be ballistic. Wherever you want to, stop, estimate wind vector and speed, then check your work. Repeat to get better
Maybe paper matches at long range as well. Would likely make you a better wind caller than training on your own bc of the competition. Have anyone you can spot for? Then your whole job is wind for the most part. Lots of learning when you’re the spotter.
Thats fantastic and I'll definitely make the trek up for a 2019 class. Been wanting to take one of yours for quite some time anyways....my regular 1k range always has switchy winds 5-12 and gusting to 25 is very common. Have lots of opportunity to practice. Other than reading the Wind Book for Rifle Shooters and watching your videos its just been trial and error learning that particular skill.
give ed shell at central virginia tactical a call. used to owned by vern harrison, a champoin shooter with real world experience in nam.
most courses i have been to are still wind guess courses, these guys actually teach you.
how many times have you heard or read about winds from different directions...well you just have to learn.
BS, its ballistics/math.
once you learn how to read the leaves and mirage (they call them natural wind indicators), it becomes a science.
with these guys calling the wind switching and changing, first round hits.
not the regular shoot and adjust, guys usually do.
one day i was busting his chops and he got down with my rifle (308 at the time) and he started at 1000 and had first round hits all the way to 400 or so (prob 6-7 targets 11" x 17" maidens). no sighters no adjustments. going far to close is skill
best wind training i ever had.
most courses i have been to are still wind guess courses, these guys actually teach you.
how many times have you heard or read about winds from different directions...well you just have to learn.
BS, its ballistics/math.
once you learn how to read the leaves and mirage (they call them natural wind indicators), it becomes a science.
with these guys calling the wind switching and changing, first round hits.
not the regular shoot and adjust, guys usually do.
one day i was busting his chops and he got down with my rifle (308 at the time) and he started at 1000 and had first round hits all the way to 400 or so (prob 6-7 targets 11" x 17" maidens). no sighters no adjustments. going far to close is skill
best wind training i ever had.
Thanks for that Brian. Will look into that too. Sounds like a good one. The more the better....this really needs to be a focus for me for awhile.
Competing in NRA Prone matches (F class or sling) will teach you a shitload about the basics of wind reading and mirage. The combination of discreet (shot value and position) target feedback and having a spotting scope right next to your eyeball to REALLY see mirage (far better than any rifle scope will show you) is an invaluable learning tool if you pay attention and think about cause and effect.
NRA paper targets will tell you what steel won't: where exactly your bullet went every single shot.
Start with 600 yard mid range prone matches, then after you have a solid grasp there move up to long range /fullbore (800/900/1000 yds)
NRA paper targets will tell you what steel won't: where exactly your bullet went every single shot.
Start with 600 yard mid range prone matches, then after you have a solid grasp there move up to long range /fullbore (800/900/1000 yds)
F class is cool and all but does require specialized gear to do it right and understand what you are looking at. If your scope cannot resolve the rings on the target what good is it really? You need a high powered scope that allows you to look at the rings.
We use a specialized target, so saying Steel is no good doesn't really address what we do, we addressed the course size of steel.
Our wind target is .2 Mil wide at 675 and we can move it back. The goal is to resolve the white target and hit that, vs impacting the other colors.
Move it back and .2 easily becomes .1 wide which is sub-MOA, .36 wide which is pretty darn good. .2 Mil is .72 so it's still submoa
Not to mention we have wind, like all the time.
We use a specialized target, so saying Steel is no good doesn't really address what we do, we addressed the course size of steel.
Our wind target is .2 Mil wide at 675 and we can move it back. The goal is to resolve the white target and hit that, vs impacting the other colors.
Move it back and .2 easily becomes .1 wide which is sub-MOA, .36 wide which is pretty darn good. .2 Mil is .72 so it's still submoa
Not to mention we have wind, like all the time.
Thats a damned good idea with the steel like that. Already looking forward to that one- lately there has been an 8" plate at the 1K berm at my range. The feedback from seeing my misses to either side of it is a lot easier than trying to see where I hit the bigger plates at that range with our constant Texas mirage. Unfortunately the shorter distances have fairly large plates that dont get painted enough so the feedback isnt that valuable for learning.
Im having an interview at a private club tomorrow that goes out to a mile and my big hope is they either let you put up paper or your own steel at long range so I can rig up something that will provide some meaningful wind practice. If I want to shoot paper here I am limited to a 300 yard range with huge berms along the shooting lane that block wind.
Im having an interview at a private club tomorrow that goes out to a mile and my big hope is they either let you put up paper or your own steel at long range so I can rig up something that will provide some meaningful wind practice. If I want to shoot paper here I am limited to a 300 yard range with huge berms along the shooting lane that block wind.
I can't recommend this enough, when I was in the Coast Guard we had to record sea state, temps, wind direction and wind speed every hour in the unit logs amongst lots of other incredibly boring BS, we would guesstimate the wind then go look at the anemometer before recording in the logs. After a year or so we could guesstimate the winds +or- .5.
Practice is useless without verification.
I'm not sure what to make of this.
There is no specialized gear needed to use F class to get wind feedback. Any rifle scope of decent quality and > 15X magnification will resolve rings. So will any decent spotter with a 60 mm objective or greater and 25X or so magnification.
There's a white/black disk where your bullet went into the target and a value marker on the edge of the target telling you which ring it went into. It's not that hard to learn.
Between that feedback and the use of a spotter to watch mirage, any mid range prone match is an hours long course in seeing how the mirage correlates with what you see happening on target.
No one is denying the value of instruction. But repetition is the key to learning and I can find a mid or long range prone NRA match at least once a month 12 months of the year where I live.
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We shot Spirit of America F Class matches several times as part of SH, the Ghost Dancer Rifle system we did back in the early days was a tactical F Class crossover project.
It's no longer the very best, and mistaking a guy who has done it for "EVER" vs spinning up new shooters is unrealistic
The main issue is the look at the wind, they get used to the winds on "ONE Range" because very few venture outside of their local ranges. If all i did is shoot Colorado Rifle Club and the High Power Range there , over and over, you'd learn that range very well but not much else. Plus High Power ranges are manicured and have wind flags and have spotters and that process takes too much time between the shot and the score of the spotter disc. You have to wait and things change.
In the field we get terrain issues, limited indicators, we might have a valley between ridge lines with no "Mid Range" mirage. Most High Power shooters on a Square Range use Mid Range Winds to dope the shot. You might not have that information in the field.
Aspect changes, we can shoot in multiple directions and change the aspect of the wind, you cannot do that on a square range.
It's the old story, the one guy who "knows the wind" better than anyone else because he shoots that same range every time. Lame.
Equipment wise, very few are gonna want to go to a competition where they are completely out-gunned and understand it's training. So they get embarrassed or when you do show up with a tactical rifle, ridiculed by the old guard. Why do you think these disciplines are having a hard time filling their ranks. Palma is dying, F Class is Belly BenchRest, the more you spend the better. That includes rests.
Professional Shooters like Emil and Guys from the AMU are of course gonna be good, it's their job, you don't have that much time and we have found better and easier ways to get you on target. I stalked Emil at K02M and watched every second of his work. He is detailed beyond what most would commit too, and still only 1 AB guy qualified this year out of the entire team. (Not a knock just a fact) Paul, F Class Team Member and the last guy in the draw for AB. it was a process of elimination, he learned from the early mistakes and benefited.
Robert on the other hand is a PRS guy and doped the wind with his hands, no equipment, no computer, (Not even a kestrel) smoked them by a huge margin with a used rifle and Bushnell Scope. He swagged it and corrected from the shots, because every PRS Guys is edge of plate holder. They get a rough estimate and then use their body position to fix tthe problem.
I watched David Tubb too, who reduces the wind to a straight MPH call and saw what did, the other is with F Class and High Power, They have Coaches who dope the wind for them. The shooter is not as concerned with the wind, the Coach is ... Emil was a Wind Coach.
When he is looking back he is asking for a wind call
Again, not a knock but a different discipline, they have convertable sighters too. So you can blow the wind and then focus in after the mistake and from that point you are just bouncing the 10 Ring under the same conditions.
Paper is an excellent instructor, but it's not as simple as show up and shoot. The answer should no longer be, Grab a Case of Ammo and Shoot" we can get done better and quicker with less effort and time because we have fined tuned it to our pursuit vs the other guys.
You have to have a plan, and know what to do by yourself when the plan changes.
It's no longer the very best, and mistaking a guy who has done it for "EVER" vs spinning up new shooters is unrealistic
The main issue is the look at the wind, they get used to the winds on "ONE Range" because very few venture outside of their local ranges. If all i did is shoot Colorado Rifle Club and the High Power Range there , over and over, you'd learn that range very well but not much else. Plus High Power ranges are manicured and have wind flags and have spotters and that process takes too much time between the shot and the score of the spotter disc. You have to wait and things change.
In the field we get terrain issues, limited indicators, we might have a valley between ridge lines with no "Mid Range" mirage. Most High Power shooters on a Square Range use Mid Range Winds to dope the shot. You might not have that information in the field.
Aspect changes, we can shoot in multiple directions and change the aspect of the wind, you cannot do that on a square range.
It's the old story, the one guy who "knows the wind" better than anyone else because he shoots that same range every time. Lame.
Equipment wise, very few are gonna want to go to a competition where they are completely out-gunned and understand it's training. So they get embarrassed or when you do show up with a tactical rifle, ridiculed by the old guard. Why do you think these disciplines are having a hard time filling their ranks. Palma is dying, F Class is Belly BenchRest, the more you spend the better. That includes rests.
Professional Shooters like Emil and Guys from the AMU are of course gonna be good, it's their job, you don't have that much time and we have found better and easier ways to get you on target. I stalked Emil at K02M and watched every second of his work. He is detailed beyond what most would commit too, and still only 1 AB guy qualified this year out of the entire team. (Not a knock just a fact) Paul, F Class Team Member and the last guy in the draw for AB. it was a process of elimination, he learned from the early mistakes and benefited.
Robert on the other hand is a PRS guy and doped the wind with his hands, no equipment, no computer, (Not even a kestrel) smoked them by a huge margin with a used rifle and Bushnell Scope. He swagged it and corrected from the shots, because every PRS Guys is edge of plate holder. They get a rough estimate and then use their body position to fix tthe problem.
I watched David Tubb too, who reduces the wind to a straight MPH call and saw what did, the other is with F Class and High Power, They have Coaches who dope the wind for them. The shooter is not as concerned with the wind, the Coach is ... Emil was a Wind Coach.
When he is looking back he is asking for a wind call
Again, not a knock but a different discipline, they have convertable sighters too. So you can blow the wind and then focus in after the mistake and from that point you are just bouncing the 10 Ring under the same conditions.
Paper is an excellent instructor, but it's not as simple as show up and shoot. The answer should no longer be, Grab a Case of Ammo and Shoot" we can get done better and quicker with less effort and time because we have fined tuned it to our pursuit vs the other guys.
You have to have a plan, and know what to do by yourself when the plan changes.
@Lowlight
I think you lost me. My mention of the best wind readers are going to be guys like Praslick, or Mid Tompkins, or Norm Anderson...not the best guy at Colorado that only knows how to shoot in Colorado.
The guys that end up coaching on the international teams are on a different level when it comes to reading wind and using information. They are also good shooters in their own right. Time between shots is part of what makes it so that you have to read the wind instead of SWAG and favor a little more.
The Brits do so well because Bisley is shot 3 to a mound and Target Rifle is more popular than Unlimited classes that just replace skill with better bullets. They have to wait 2 minutes between shots and they have to shoot in the condition downrange whatever it is. It makes them stronger shooters.
For whatever it's worth if you look at Fullbore, Palma, F-Class, etc you'll see that there are some guys that consistently win or place near the top.
I'm not trying to get into whether or not one sport is better than the other. Personally I think both formats are rubbish Palma is more like "golfing...but with rifles" whereas PRS is "Bianchi cup...but with rifles." But PRS shooters delude themselves into thinking their sport is more practical, effective, or real world.
PRS is probably the most gear oriented sport out there. It's really easy to buy your way into being half decent. Get a heavy gun, Benchrest trigger, and a Gamechanger bag and you can shoot most stages.
"Edge of plate" is a strategy because most guys aren't reading the wind, they are making a gross estimate, and hoping for the best. The courses of fire don't really punish wind reading ability as harshly as positional instability because the targets are on the average maybe 600 yards out.
My whole wind reading strategy for PRS is being able to gauge how wide the target is, and determine how many mph of wind it will take to move me off of it. I even put mph marks on my elevation turret to tell me how many mph wind will move my bullet 1/2 mil.
PRS does a good job of teaching building positions quickly and adjusting on the fly, but it really doesn't do a lot for fundamentals, and it doesn't showcase wind reading ability.
The NRA stuff is kind of lame, but it does force you to read the wind, and it punishes you for making a bad call a lot moreso than PRS does. I know of a lot more guys that went from being good conventional style shooters to being good PRS shooters than vice versa.
I think you lost me. My mention of the best wind readers are going to be guys like Praslick, or Mid Tompkins, or Norm Anderson...not the best guy at Colorado that only knows how to shoot in Colorado.
The guys that end up coaching on the international teams are on a different level when it comes to reading wind and using information. They are also good shooters in their own right. Time between shots is part of what makes it so that you have to read the wind instead of SWAG and favor a little more.
The Brits do so well because Bisley is shot 3 to a mound and Target Rifle is more popular than Unlimited classes that just replace skill with better bullets. They have to wait 2 minutes between shots and they have to shoot in the condition downrange whatever it is. It makes them stronger shooters.
For whatever it's worth if you look at Fullbore, Palma, F-Class, etc you'll see that there are some guys that consistently win or place near the top.
I'm not trying to get into whether or not one sport is better than the other. Personally I think both formats are rubbish Palma is more like "golfing...but with rifles" whereas PRS is "Bianchi cup...but with rifles." But PRS shooters delude themselves into thinking their sport is more practical, effective, or real world.
PRS is probably the most gear oriented sport out there. It's really easy to buy your way into being half decent. Get a heavy gun, Benchrest trigger, and a Gamechanger bag and you can shoot most stages.
"Edge of plate" is a strategy because most guys aren't reading the wind, they are making a gross estimate, and hoping for the best. The courses of fire don't really punish wind reading ability as harshly as positional instability because the targets are on the average maybe 600 yards out.
My whole wind reading strategy for PRS is being able to gauge how wide the target is, and determine how many mph of wind it will take to move me off of it. I even put mph marks on my elevation turret to tell me how many mph wind will move my bullet 1/2 mil.
PRS does a good job of teaching building positions quickly and adjusting on the fly, but it really doesn't do a lot for fundamentals, and it doesn't showcase wind reading ability.
The NRA stuff is kind of lame, but it does force you to read the wind, and it punishes you for making a bad call a lot moreso than PRS does. I know of a lot more guys that went from being good conventional style shooters to being good PRS shooters than vice versa.
My point is they are robots in a lot of ways, repetition, and rounds downrange.
they practice often on the same ranges and show up early to practice on those ranges too. It's the mindset, look at the KO2M drama from the past 2 years, where Team AB rented Raton Early. That is typical to arrive early and practice under those conditions.
Once they figured the wind with sighters, they are really just bouncing the 10 and X Ring, these guys win by X Count, which is 1/2 MOA . on the field stuff they dont do as well as on their square ranges.
Comparing an Emil to a new shooter looking to learn is my point, try hiring Emil and let me know how that works? yes I would totally attend his clinics and I will this weekend at the event. If his and my schedule provide for it, I will be there.
I am not saying they are not good and don't know their craft, I am only saying, that method requires a long time to master. It's a big investment in Time. Look at who you just cited and how long they have been doing this.
We give guys real numbers for real-world conditions that get them on target fast based off their rifle system. Regardless of the caliber or experience level. I even did this for elevation with a guy in Canada this past weekend
He had some numbers but not all the numbers, so I showed him how to figure it fast. A gentleman with a 300WM wanted to the shoot the mile target, I gave him my rule of thumb values and was off .3 Mil at a mile, I said 18 Mils he used 17.7. Windage this past weekend was as much as 6 Mils with a 300NM at 1 Mile, we had a lot of hits.
The F Class guys follow the old school method of shoot a lot, write it down, and repeat often. Which works totally, but is a huge time and ammo investment. It's no different than recording elevation dope with certain DA numbers, you need time to develop that information. None of them give a process beyond the old school USMC Formula
Trust me I see a lot, I try a lot, I am trying to help, not compete against the process of others. I am only pointing out the facts of their methods because I pay very close attention to them
they practice often on the same ranges and show up early to practice on those ranges too. It's the mindset, look at the KO2M drama from the past 2 years, where Team AB rented Raton Early. That is typical to arrive early and practice under those conditions.
Once they figured the wind with sighters, they are really just bouncing the 10 and X Ring, these guys win by X Count, which is 1/2 MOA . on the field stuff they dont do as well as on their square ranges.
Comparing an Emil to a new shooter looking to learn is my point, try hiring Emil and let me know how that works? yes I would totally attend his clinics and I will this weekend at the event. If his and my schedule provide for it, I will be there.
I am not saying they are not good and don't know their craft, I am only saying, that method requires a long time to master. It's a big investment in Time. Look at who you just cited and how long they have been doing this.
We give guys real numbers for real-world conditions that get them on target fast based off their rifle system. Regardless of the caliber or experience level. I even did this for elevation with a guy in Canada this past weekend
He had some numbers but not all the numbers, so I showed him how to figure it fast. A gentleman with a 300WM wanted to the shoot the mile target, I gave him my rule of thumb values and was off .3 Mil at a mile, I said 18 Mils he used 17.7. Windage this past weekend was as much as 6 Mils with a 300NM at 1 Mile, we had a lot of hits.
The F Class guys follow the old school method of shoot a lot, write it down, and repeat often. Which works totally, but is a huge time and ammo investment. It's no different than recording elevation dope with certain DA numbers, you need time to develop that information. None of them give a process beyond the old school USMC Formula
Trust me I see a lot, I try a lot, I am trying to help, not compete against the process of others. I am only pointing out the facts of their methods because I pay very close attention to them
As a PS,
I ordered my lunch before starting my reply and cut it short to pick it up.
The guy with the 300WM had zero data, no computer and the rifle was brand new. So doping the rifle was a big part of it. Because this was a field course with no fixed ranges, we did not just go in order and dope the rifle out. We have to fill in the large gaps in target ranges. So we have developed method for doing this. I did not pull out my phone and pull up a generic 300WM track and repeated what it said, I gave him a method he can use and understand minus software.
This was my view teaching all weekend.
In my class, I go over a lot of wind basics,
The methods being advocated here are the same ones taught in 1978, vs taking a modern approach which gets the student up and running quicker, which is my point in all this.
It's a complete package that begins with the shooters, I go hands-on with each person
it's not about ignoring what works, it's about adapting to the modern shooter.
The hit count this weekend was huge, the guys were eating targets up, and the wind methods I employ work. Especially with new shooters, limited time with them, and changing or unknown conditions. There is no way to successfully dope the wind up to a mile away with amount of changing conditions we see.
The targets at the left have a different wind from the targets on the right, the targets higher on the ridge have a different wind from the targets at the bottom. I want guys to get hits in less than 3 shots using a method that is easily repeated without software. Without a calculator doing long hand math on the line. I can do it with both windage and elevation. There is a reason guys who took formal training on the "Tremor Wind Dots' have called Mike up at MHSA because they heard us talk about this simplified way. When a soldier in the Middle East calls you because the Podcast explained it better than the latest Military Training from an Outside Source (read T.H.) and the guys go, WTF over, this shit is simple, I know we have a good model to follow. Not to mention what we see on the ranges.
I ordered my lunch before starting my reply and cut it short to pick it up.
The guy with the 300WM had zero data, no computer and the rifle was brand new. So doping the rifle was a big part of it. Because this was a field course with no fixed ranges, we did not just go in order and dope the rifle out. We have to fill in the large gaps in target ranges. So we have developed method for doing this. I did not pull out my phone and pull up a generic 300WM track and repeated what it said, I gave him a method he can use and understand minus software.
This was my view teaching all weekend.
In my class, I go over a lot of wind basics,
The methods being advocated here are the same ones taught in 1978, vs taking a modern approach which gets the student up and running quicker, which is my point in all this.
It's a complete package that begins with the shooters, I go hands-on with each person
it's not about ignoring what works, it's about adapting to the modern shooter.
The hit count this weekend was huge, the guys were eating targets up, and the wind methods I employ work. Especially with new shooters, limited time with them, and changing or unknown conditions. There is no way to successfully dope the wind up to a mile away with amount of changing conditions we see.
The targets at the left have a different wind from the targets on the right, the targets higher on the ridge have a different wind from the targets at the bottom. I want guys to get hits in less than 3 shots using a method that is easily repeated without software. Without a calculator doing long hand math on the line. I can do it with both windage and elevation. There is a reason guys who took formal training on the "Tremor Wind Dots' have called Mike up at MHSA because they heard us talk about this simplified way. When a soldier in the Middle East calls you because the Podcast explained it better than the latest Military Training from an Outside Source (read T.H.) and the guys go, WTF over, this shit is simple, I know we have a good model to follow. Not to mention what we see on the ranges.
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Frank- can't thank you enough for taking the time to pen that all out. Im making sure my fundamentals are up to snuff next month with the 5 day RO class. Its been 25 years since I have had professional instruction, so Im sure a number of bad habit need to be recorrected. Should be a good primer anyway before yours next year. While some skills can be learned through reading and online then trial and error and wasting too much ammo- this is one area I'm really looking forward to getting your help in person. Decided to stop chasing gear and start chasing training instead. The new range in my life has the long shots across 2 valleys which is difficult to just wing it and figure out in a consistent manner. A monkey can pull a trigger enough and keep correcting until they get it, but having a good methodology to practice and take elsewhere/anywhere is really the goal.....thanks again- looking forward to it.
Chris
Chris
@Lowlight
I see what you're getting at but I also think you are grossly simplifying things to make a point. And I think that has to do with your perspective as a spectator vs. actually being a participant.
For instance the reliance on sighters, square ranges, and coaches is vastly over stated. Team matches are shot with wind coaches not because shooters lack the ability to do it themselves, but because the format allows division of labor.
The skills learned on a square range translate almost directly over to field shooting for most of us. It's not the be-all end-all, but it does drill wind pretty good.
Look at how well Todd Pace does in a PRS match with a .308 Winchester. He had more than a few top 15 finishes while shooting in Tactical class, and he was shooting about 80% or better of the top score if I recall correctly. And PRS is a sideshow for anyone in AMU that isn't Tyler Payne.
Just off the top of my head, my 308 Palma load has similar wind drift at 1000 yards as my 300WM load has at a mile; a 2.5mph wind will move me .6 mils at 1000 with the 308, and .6 mils with my 300WM at 1800 yards.
The Brits at Bisely are basically learning to shoot in the condition on demand, and keep everything within 2 MOA with iron sights and a sling. It makes them very very good.
I see what you're getting at but I also think you are grossly simplifying things to make a point. And I think that has to do with your perspective as a spectator vs. actually being a participant.
For instance the reliance on sighters, square ranges, and coaches is vastly over stated. Team matches are shot with wind coaches not because shooters lack the ability to do it themselves, but because the format allows division of labor.
The skills learned on a square range translate almost directly over to field shooting for most of us. It's not the be-all end-all, but it does drill wind pretty good.
Look at how well Todd Pace does in a PRS match with a .308 Winchester. He had more than a few top 15 finishes while shooting in Tactical class, and he was shooting about 80% or better of the top score if I recall correctly. And PRS is a sideshow for anyone in AMU that isn't Tyler Payne.
Just off the top of my head, my 308 Palma load has similar wind drift at 1000 yards as my 300WM load has at a mile; a 2.5mph wind will move me .6 mils at 1000 with the 308, and .6 mils with my 300WM at 1800 yards.
The Brits at Bisely are basically learning to shoot in the condition on demand, and keep everything within 2 MOA with iron sights and a sling. It makes them very very good.
You just want to disagree, i shot two matches in the last 30 days and taught two classes in the same time frame.
I am not cherry picking success like you are.
You are clearly playing the, "no matter what disagree with LL game" as if i dont chase this topic everyday, and work tirelessly to improve the way we teach new students, vs resting on what others did.
There was a time we all shot matches with a 308, the prs started in 2012, this site started in 2000, and i graduated Sniper School in 86, i think i know what you are saying because i been there, you just refuse to ackknowledge things have changed.
I was a 5th award expert with iron sights and even scored my highest with a 203 under my rifle. A 243 out of 250 is pretty good for an off the armory shelf 556 out to 500 yards. But i digress.
Simple question, what is their method and what do they reference ? The same old USMC formula found in every databook on the planet. With the same old advice of, spend more time playing trial and error.
I am not cherry picking success like you are.
You are clearly playing the, "no matter what disagree with LL game" as if i dont chase this topic everyday, and work tirelessly to improve the way we teach new students, vs resting on what others did.
There was a time we all shot matches with a 308, the prs started in 2012, this site started in 2000, and i graduated Sniper School in 86, i think i know what you are saying because i been there, you just refuse to ackknowledge things have changed.
I was a 5th award expert with iron sights and even scored my highest with a 203 under my rifle. A 243 out of 250 is pretty good for an off the armory shelf 556 out to 500 yards. But i digress.
Simple question, what is their method and what do they reference ? The same old USMC formula found in every databook on the planet. With the same old advice of, spend more time playing trial and error.
And just in case in case I am not asking the question correctly, let me expand.
New Shooter, never took a class before, with no formal training in precision rifle. He has a Ruger RPR, you pick the caliber, and Vortex PST scope. He wants to learn the wind and reads the suggestion to go shoot an F class match local to him.
Let's say his local range has a monthly match he can attend.
How many matches must he attend before you think he has a grasp on the concepts where he feels comfortable?
Where do you suggest he start, he arrives, gets his squad assignment, and is ready to shoot his first relay, time starts now.
We can assume as a new shooter in the discipline, the first time he will be an unknown, so who does talk too and how comfortable do you think he will be asking someone to coach him? Not to mention what the old guard will say when they are shooting flat bottom custom rigs with $1000 front rests, and 55x competition optic and the shooter walks up with an RPR. How seriously do they take him?
The first time we attended the Spirit of America Match in Raton, I was with a 14 yr old and 16 yr old, they walked up to talk to a Palma shooter and he proceeded to tell them F class stood for Fuck Head then looked down at their tactical rifles and walked away. Not the friendliest bunch, when we came back a 2nd and 3rd time several opened up, but since we continued to shoot our tactical rifles and considered it "training" they were cordial at best. I will say this, Me and Michelle Gallagher Swapped Rifles one relay, she shot mine and I shot hers, but I am a bit more in your face than most. I approached her and worked it all week. It helped she arrived early and was put on our squad versus one with Sherri, Nancy, and Mitch. Each Spirit of America we shot, all the "whos" where there.
I don't dispute it can be a good way to learn, but every organized discipline has their rockstars who can "dope the wind" and every advocate thinks theirs are the best. But let's face it, this guy is not venturing to the UK to visit Bisley in order to get a single lesson in wind calling by watching the other guy succeed. Neither watching someone do it or getting a 3-minute hip pocket lesson from a "who" in between relays is gonna do what the OP is asking.
New Shooter, never took a class before, with no formal training in precision rifle. He has a Ruger RPR, you pick the caliber, and Vortex PST scope. He wants to learn the wind and reads the suggestion to go shoot an F class match local to him.
Let's say his local range has a monthly match he can attend.
How many matches must he attend before you think he has a grasp on the concepts where he feels comfortable?
Where do you suggest he start, he arrives, gets his squad assignment, and is ready to shoot his first relay, time starts now.
We can assume as a new shooter in the discipline, the first time he will be an unknown, so who does talk too and how comfortable do you think he will be asking someone to coach him? Not to mention what the old guard will say when they are shooting flat bottom custom rigs with $1000 front rests, and 55x competition optic and the shooter walks up with an RPR. How seriously do they take him?
The first time we attended the Spirit of America Match in Raton, I was with a 14 yr old and 16 yr old, they walked up to talk to a Palma shooter and he proceeded to tell them F class stood for Fuck Head then looked down at their tactical rifles and walked away. Not the friendliest bunch, when we came back a 2nd and 3rd time several opened up, but since we continued to shoot our tactical rifles and considered it "training" they were cordial at best. I will say this, Me and Michelle Gallagher Swapped Rifles one relay, she shot mine and I shot hers, but I am a bit more in your face than most. I approached her and worked it all week. It helped she arrived early and was put on our squad versus one with Sherri, Nancy, and Mitch. Each Spirit of America we shot, all the "whos" where there.
I don't dispute it can be a good way to learn, but every organized discipline has their rockstars who can "dope the wind" and every advocate thinks theirs are the best. But let's face it, this guy is not venturing to the UK to visit Bisley in order to get a single lesson in wind calling by watching the other guy succeed. Neither watching someone do it or getting a 3-minute hip pocket lesson from a "who" in between relays is gonna do what the OP is asking.
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