Better .22 ammo?

[JFricke]

There is an infinite amount of commentary on this forum and others about the inconsistency of .22 ammo. My understanding is that its not one thing but everything. Inconsistency in primer material in the rim, tiny powder charges (more sensitive to minor variation), soft bullets get deformed more easily, soft cases aren't formed consistently, bla bla bla

With the interest in long range .22 that has developed it seems that someone (lapua, eley, sk etc.) would be thinking extra hard about the issues at hand. Not to say that Olympic level shooters haven't been needing excellent ammo for the last 50 years.

Who is at the forefront of this (lapua most likely) but is anyone aware of any real headway being made to improve consistency, not just to help you pick the best lot of inconsistent ammo for your gun?

 

[Oryx]

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

There is an infinite amount of commentary on this forum and others about the inconsistency of .22 ammo. My understanding is that its not one thing but everything. Inconsistency in primer material in the rim, tiny powder charges (more sensitive to minor variation), soft bullets get deformed more easily, soft cases aren't formed consistently, bla bla bla

With the interest in long range .22 that has developed it seems that someone (lapua, eley, sk etc.) would be thinking extra hard about the issues at hand. Not to say that Olympic level shooters haven't been needing excellent ammo for the last 50 years.

Who is at the forefront of this and is anyone aware of any real headway being made to improve consistency?

How much is not just the ammo but the rifle as well? that is another factor to consider.
with RFBR as a premium measure Lapua has been dominating the matches. I am sure PRS & NRL shooters would have similar experience.

Lee

 

[justin amateur]

Captain Obvious here....22lr/rimfire is 1800's technology.
It's limitations are due to the era and purpose it was engineered for.
I'm pretty sure that there have been improvements made in ammunition tech since.
Priming methods, powder chemistry, case and bullet manufacture have changed.
Centerfire comes to mind. What? Am I wrong?

 

[obx22]

Machines wear out. Chemical compositions get regulated away by EPA concerns, the human element (skilled worker attrition).
All these certainly haven’t helped what we see in the rimfire world.
At a time where rifle consistency, optics and mounts design and mfg is at an all time high, premium ammo production is at an all time low.
When was the last time the USA concerns produced competitive ammo? Probably Federals UM1-UM1-B during the Olympics in Atlanta. Winchester tried a premium offering in the early 2000s, but it failed against Eley’s offerings. When the Win.Australia made stuff trickled out, they ceased to be a contender. PMC, once a great sleeper in accuracy, shifted production from Korea to Mexico and the consistency vanished. Fiocchi has vanished from shelves. Sellier & Bellot has never grouped well in my rifles, and is rarely seen anyway. Aguila, while offering a slew of different styles, has never really nailed the consistency to truly be competitive. That leaves RWS, Lapua, and Eley as the current top 3, and just finding inventory in sufficient quantity is a pain (not to mention the exorbitant prices these days).
Production even on these aged machines running 24-7 cannot meet demands, and new machines with ground breaking improvements don’t seem to be in the works…

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Machines wear out. Chemical compositions get regulated away by EPA concerns, the human element (skilled worker attrition).
All these certainly haven’t helped what we see in the rimfire world.
At a time where rifle consistency, optics and mounts design and mfg is at an all time high, premium ammo production is at an all time low.
When was the last time the USA concerns produced competitive ammo? Probably Federals UM1-UM1-B during the Olympics in Atlanta. Winchester tried a premium offering in the early 2000s, but it failed against Eley’s offerings. When the Win.Australia made stuff trickled out, they ceased to be a contender. PMC, once a great sleeper in accuracy, shifted production from Korea to Mexico and the consistency vanished. Fiocchi has vanished from shelves. Sellier & Bellot has never grouped well in my rifles, and is rarely seen anyway. Aguila, while offering a slew of different styles, has never really nailed the consistency to truly be competitive. That leaves RWS, Lapua, and Eley as the current top 3, and just finding inventory in sufficient quantity is a pain (not to mention the exorbitant prices these days).
Production even on these aged machines running 24-7 cannot meet demands, and new machines with ground breaking improvements don’t seem to be in the works…

I see nothing wrong with what Lapua is producing currently. having switched from Eley more than 10 years ago I only see Lapua's quality get better and better. the consistency I am seeing versus say 7 years ago is way better. my measure of consistency is the OAL as measured from the rim face to the Ogive.
my most recent lot of CX has only a 0.015 difference between lengths with less than three groups of different OAL lengths as an example: 0.690,0.695 & 0.705 this all within acceptable range for my rifles. not sure what groundbreaking improvements they need to do.

As far meeting demand, they recently said they are going to limit single lot production to 5 cases or less to make what they produce even better. to me this is good news probably for others it is not. last thing I want to see from them is ramping up production to meet demand and have quality go down.

Lee

 

[oldrifleman]

I see nothing wrong with what Lapua is producing currently. having switched from Eley more than 10 years ago I only see Lapua's quality get better and better. the consistency I am seeing versus say 7 years ago is way better. my measure of consistency is the OAL as measured from the rim face to the Ogive.
my most recent lot of CX has only a 0.015 difference between lengths with less than three groups of different OAL lengths as an example: 0.690,0.695 & 0.705 this all within acceptable range for my rifles. not sure what groundbreaking improvements they need to do.

As far meeting demand, they recently said they are going to limit single lot production to 5 cases or less to make what they produce even better. to me this is good news probably for others it is not. last thing I want to see from them is ramping up production to meet demand and have quality go down.

Lee

I concur, I have found that Lapua CenterX and Midas+ are spectacular as is Eley 10X if you are able to do extensive lot testing (rifle dependent ). With Rimfire you can't reload to tune the load to the rifle so you either pick a consistently good ammo and/or tune the rifle to the ammo. Rimfire can be exceedingly accurate if your rifle and ammo are matched, it does breakdown over distance quicker that most centerfire ammo due to bullet weight and velocity profiles.

 

[Cat pitch]

Lapua center x

 

[JFricke]

I see nothing wrong with what Lapua is producing currently. having switched from Eley more than 10 years ago I only see Lapua's quality get better and better. the consistency I am seeing versus say 7 years ago is way better. my measure of consistency is the OAL as measured from the rim face to the Ogive.
my most recent lot of CX has only a 0.015 difference between lengths with less than three groups of different OAL lengths as an example: 0.690,0.695 & 0.705 this all within acceptable range for my rifles. not sure what groundbreaking improvements they need to do.

As far meeting demand, they recently said they are going to limit single lot production to 5 cases or less to make what they produce even better. to me this is good news probably for others it is not. last thing I want to see from them is ramping up production to meet demand and have quality go down.

Lee

Good to know.

The endless discussion about 100 round groups etc. got me wondering. Sounds like the issue isn't consistent ammo, but consistent access to good ammo. Trying to make mid quality ammo into something its not will drive you crazy, i'm sure.

 

[epeet]

Unpopular opinion - .22 is really good, especially if you are willing to pay for it. But it turns out 40 grains of lead with a starting velocity of 1050 or so FPS isn't a great recipe for long range precision. Its like complaining that your .308 groups "really open up" after 1200+ yards.

I spend a lot of time shooting .22 at 150+ yards, its fun, I can hit pretty consistently but I don't use 1 MOA sized targets...

 

[lariat]

Honest question: Back in the day, what was the .22 designed for? Are we trying to make the round do more than what it can reasonably do? Are we applying modern standards inappropriately to an old caliber? It is a question I have had regarding this round for some time. I’m honestly not sure of the absolute answer.

 

[justin amateur]

Plenty of publications that discuss the original 22 rimfire cartridges history/development.
It was intended for use as a small game hunting/varminting cartridge.
As a black powder cartridge, it was effective for offhand short range use.
In an era where stalking was still a necessary skill, you didn't take a shot
unless you were absolutely sure it would be effective. Not a long range cartridge.

Being a naturally competitive/curious species, we always have to push the limits
to find out just how far a bit of technology can be taken, even if not it's original intent.

Hey y'all, ya' see that apple hanging down on that lower branch over the creek?
Here, hold mah beer, watch this.

 

[hpt396]

Hoping to try this soon!

RWS novelties 2022: NEW RIMFIRE CARTRIDGE - R PLUS LONG RANGE | RWS Ammunition

rws-ammunition.com

 

[Cowpokey]

Hoping to try this soon!

RWS novelties 2022: NEW RIMFIRE CARTRIDGE - R PLUS LONG RANGE | RWS Ammunition

rws-ammunition.com

Don't hold your breath, that stuff should have been out a year ago, still haven't seen it available anywhere I buy ammo.

 

[hpt396]

Don't hold your breath, that stuff should have been out a year ago, still haven't seen it available anywhere I buy ammo.

Yeah, slow motion. Email reply from RWS promised Jan '24 availability.
At least there is r&d being done and new products on the horizon.

 

[JG26_Irish]

There are some new developments in rimfire ammunition technology underway. Testing of several novel technical developments are in early development phase. But, with all new technology, it has to pass the sniff test. Is it technically feasible? Is it really superior to the current state of the art? and finally and not insignificant, is the question: Is it economically feasible? All of the key components are being creatively reconstructed. The ones that pass the sniff test may go into making a new version of precision rimfire fodder for us to use in match play and hunting sports. It will take time, and effort. The initial concepts are all on paper and testing of the first components are expected to start in 2024. I would not expect any real break through for a while. However, there was a time when the USA made some of the best 22 ammo in the world. Today it all comes from Europe. Stay tuned. Once question. What is the price point for 22lr ammo that is better than X-Act or 10X? Would you pay more for better ammo? Or does it have to fit into the current economic market price of $15-20/box of 50rds? You pay $30 for a box of 20rds of centerfire ammo. That amounts to $75 for a pox of 50rds. Is there a price in between $20 and $75 that a truly better product would be acceptable at? If not, it may not be worth the development efforts.

 

[lariat]

There are some new developments in rimfire ammunition technology underway. Testing of several novel technical developments are in early development phase. But, with all new technology, it has to pass the sniff test. Is it technically feasible? Is it really superior to the current state of the art? and finally and not insignificant, is the question: Is it economically feasible? All of the key components are being creatively reconstructed. The ones that pass the sniff test may go into making a new version of precision rimfire fodder for us to use in match play and hunting sports. It will take time, and effort. The initial concepts are all on paper and testing of the first components are expected to start in 2024. I would not expect any real break through for a while. However, there was a time when the USA made some of the best 22 ammo in the world. Today it all comes from Europe. Stay tuned. Once question. What is the price point for 22lr ammo that is better than X-Act or 10X? Would you pay more for better ammo? Or does it have to fit into the current economic market price of $15-20/box of 50rds? You pay $30 for a box of 20rds of centerfire ammo. That amounts to $75 for a pox of 50rds. Is there a price in between $20 and $75 that a truly better product would be acceptable at? If not, it may not be worth the development efforts.

Nailed it.

 

[flatland1]

I can honestly answer Irish's question about how much I'm willing to pay by saying that I'm pretty satisfied with lots of Eley Match or Lapua Center-X that will consistently produce groups of 1 MOA at 200yds. I've never bought any Lapua X-Act, and am not likely to do so. No matter what the 22RF BR shooters say about Eley vs Lapua, it's been easier for me to find random lots of Eley Match that would shoot better groups at 200 than any of the Center-X (even lot tested ammo from the Mesa Lapua Test Center) out of my three Vudoo repeaters. And while it's entertaining/educational to occasionally shoot these rifles at 300yds, I don't plan to make a habit of it - too frustrating to be a lot of fun for me.

 

[justin amateur]

What to do to improve accuracy with rimfire?

No need to spend an exorbitant amount of money
or time in research and development. Why?
There's already a technique available to accomplish it.

Stop trying to use the cartridges at distances they aren't intended for.
The closer you are to the target, the better the results, right?
Shoot all y'er competitions at 25 yards.
Most any rimfire brand is capable at that distance.

 

[hpt396]

What to do to improve accuracy with rimfire?

No need to spend an exorbitant amount of money
or time in research and development. Why?
There's already a technique available to accomplish it.

Stop trying to use the cartridges at distances they aren't intended for.
The closer you are to the target, the better the results, right?
Shoot all y'er competitions at 25 yards.
Most any rimfire brand is capable at that distance.

Fair enough, but I'm not OK with "anybody can do that" results. I like shooting my 22s at longer distances for the ammo-handicapped challenge. Shooting tiny groups at 200 with a centerfire has become meh. Anybody can do that with off the shelf rifles and ammo today. 200 is my local range max. Shooting moa at 200 with a 22 thrills the hell out of me because (in my case) it doesn't happen often.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' H.
I use rimfire at 200 yards to warm up, before setting up my F-Class 223.
I accept the limitations of the 22lr, work out the yips
and diagnose the current conditions before sending my 223 handloads.
Rimfire is cheap compared to my centerfire cartridges.
I expect strays from rimfire as they are mass produced cartridges.
The skills needed to stay on paper at 200 yards with rimfire
translate well when applied to my 223 at longer distances.

 

[oldrifleman]

I have been shooting my rimfires at 50 yards even 100 once or twice. I shoot CenterX and Midas+ ( never even seen Exact). I plan to extend my regular range distance to 100 on a regular basis, not sure of the new technology but my limit is about $25/box.

 

[JG26_Irish]

I shoot rimfire out to 400y but training with it at 200y is like shooting the 308 or 6mm at 1000y. I can burn thru 100 rds of 22 doing that in one session where the CF rifles limit me to 10 or 20 at a time plus our practice range is only 400y. To access the longer range I must show up on the 1st or 3rd Sat at 10am. It is not always convenient.

These days, I am practicing for an African Safari. This requires most shots be taken standing off sticks or offhand with sling and without. It is a new skill set to shoot off sticks with only 3-5 sec to get on the sticks and send a well aimed shot. The 22 is a Godsend to practice this. Ten shots of 375 H&H gets pricey. Some of it is approaching $9/rd (and you thought rimfire ammo was pricey). I practice with both but the 22 gets a lot of use. An aimed shot on sticks with rimfire at 50-60y is not that different from the big bore at 250-300y. It feels shakey sometimes but is good practice. As a rule, when I am in the field hunting, I try to limit my shooting to about half the distances I was comfortable with at the tgt range. That in part is to allow for other variables and to insure a clean ethical kill-shot. Still it is nice to be confident to go long if need be.

 

[flatland1]

Irish - a couple of dozen years ago, our club was running reduced distance metallic silhouette matches on full-sized targets - chickens at 100m, pigs at 200m, and rams at 300m. No limit on rifle chamberings, but you had to shoot with cast bullets. I shot with an antique Win '92 rifle in 38-40, an even older Win '86 in 40-65, and finally - after reading a book on African rifles & cartridges - a Win M70 Super Express in .375 H&H. I bought a RCBS 2-cavity mold that drops 262gr gas check bullets, and loaded 42.5grs of H4895, good for around 1940fps. Recoil was similar to full-power 30-06 loads out of another M70 I had at the time, or maybe 1/2 or less than full-power 375 H&H loads with 275gr Hornady jacketed soft points. I wound up shooting around 1700rds of those cast bullet loads - recoil out of a 10.5 lb rifle shot from offhand was very tolerable, which is a lot more than I can say for the 15-20rds of the full-power jacketed bullet ammo that I shot with that rifle. I've still got that M70 - it's a handsome rifle, with nice wood. I bought 50ct boxes of Hornady 275 & 300gr bullets when I picked up the rifle that I'd ordered from a local dealer, and there's still way more than 1/2 of those bullets left. While I enjoyed shooting the relatively mild cast bullet loads, those full-power jacketed bullet loads just flat kicked the snot out of me!
Good luck on your safari!

 

[JG26_Irish]

Irish - a couple of dozen years ago, our club was running reduced distance metallic silhouette matches on full-sized targets - chickens at 100m, pigs at 200m, and rams at 300m. No limit on rifle chamberings, but you had to shoot with cast bullets. I shot with an antique Win '92 rifle in 38-40, an even older Win '86 in 40-65, and finally - after reading a book on African rifles & cartridges - a Win M70 Super Express in .375 H&H. I bought a RCBS 2-cavity mold that drops 262gr gas check bullets, and loaded 42.5grs of H4895, good for around 1940fps. Recoil was similar to full-power 30-06 loads out of another M70 I had at the time, or maybe 1/2 or less than full-power 375 H&H loads with 275gr Hornady jacketed soft points. I wound up shooting around 1700rds of those cast bullet loads - recoil out of a 10.5 lb rifle shot from offhand was very tolerable, which is a lot more than I can say for the 15-20rds of the full-power jacketed bullet ammo that I shot with that rifle. I've still got that M70 - it's a handsome rifle, with nice wood. I bought 50ct boxes of Hornady 275 & 300gr bullets when I picked up the rifle that I'd ordered from a local dealer, and there's still way more than 1/2 of those bullets left. While I enjoyed shooting the relatively mild cast bullet loads, those full-power jacketed bullet loads just flat kicked the snot out of me!
Good luck on your safari!

That is an innovative use of the 375, lol. Kudos to you. I just swapped the 1.5-4x Leopold for a Kahles k16i optic and took it to the range to zero after a boresight job. I had also cleaned the bore with KG #2. First shot was 2 mill low and 2 mil left measured using the 6-24x mil optic on my 22, lol. I dialed up 2 and right 2 and sent one more. It was 1” low. Time to switch to some better ammo more like my hunting fodder. Two shots with the 1st being 1/2-3/4” high and the 2nd perfectly centered. Two shots do not make a group but for that exercise, I was happy. Not to hyjack the thread, a new use for the precision 22 is ranging spotter scope, lol.

Flatland, if you ever decide to sell off the old M70 375, PM me with a price. I might be interested. Back to the thread: At my club we get some really spooky air currents at the rimfire range. Often I shoot better with a slight but steady wind. Seems when it is dead calm, all of us get these strange random fliers either up or down and far too extreme to be only ammo variance. Do any of those other marksmen out there see this? It is really only noticeable at the bench rest matches and then only if your rifle is shooting1/4” and smaller groups. Otherwise it just gets lost in the noise.

 

[hpt396]

Time to turn off notifications for this post unless it gets back on the rails...

 

[Max Owner]

After seeing the video where the guy hit 1100 yards with his .22, I am inspired to try. Plus hopefully we will have a new 2,000 meter range 20 minutes north of me by late summer next year.