BNVD with Photonis Echo spec WP versus BNVD with Elbit XLS WP

[Lowdown3]

Had a rare chance to compare two of these units almost identical in specifications.

I wrote down the key metrics for these units on a piece of paper so no one would freak out about Itar if I posted the spec sheets. They were very close with Ebi being the only thing with some difference between the two.

The Echo spec unit has no manual gain control- what others call "auto" gain which is actually no gain control.
https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD...cho-spec-WHITE-PHOSPHOR-EchoBNVDWHITEPHOS.htm


The BNVD with the Elbit XLS tubes has manual gain control and it was set high for this test to be close to what the no gain set was.

https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD...HITE-PHOSPHOR-Night-Vision-bino-XLSWPBNVD.htm


Conditions-

We went to our range in the Georgia swamps October 24th at 7:30 pm. Conditions were overcast, moon was not up yet, wasn't a lot of light IMO.


First pic was taken of a person standing out in the open approximately 50 yards from the camera. Camera man was standing in the open also.

First up- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes

Next- BNVD with Echo spec WP tubes

Then we went a little bit farther into the woods there and just in the 5-10 minutes since the first set of pics were taken, lighting conditions seemed to have worsened. Also the folks that have attended training at our range will attest that this area is very thick with tree cover, further cutting down on lighting conditions.

In the woods, approximately 30 yards, standing semi out of concealment

First- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes-

Next BNVD with Photonis Echo spec WP tubes-

Once again, while the specifications on these two units was close, the XLS tube was a good bit better on Ebi than the Echo.

 

[Boon20]

To your eye witch one did you prefer?

 

[Lowdown3]

The XLS being the lowest grade Elbit makes, are usually all over the place with numbers and can have a bunch of blemishes. The one pictured is one of the better ones I've gotten in.

The Echos are more consistent in numbers and have a much cleaner image IME.

I'm a big fan of Echos. That being said, I really like and use the single gain control a lot on all our BNVDs, so I definitely missed having gain control on the Echo BNVDs.

Another factor is lead times- at this point XLS units are taking a very, very long time, whereas a BNVDs with Echo spec WP tubes have been shipping out really quick, sometimes going into production a few days after being ordered and shipped a few days later. Ported units with battery packs and custom colored housings do add to the lead time however.

 

[jwramp]

You stated the XLS tube has a better EBI, but the specs you wrote down show it has a higher (worse) number. Maybe the Echo was actually 1.50 instead of 0.15?

 

[Lowdown3]

Yeah it's that European thing... LOL 1.5 on the Echo

God forbid I wrote down the specs not exactly as they showed on the sheets or I would get ripped up by the internet warriors, you know what I mean! This is why I put "(Convert)" next to it on the pic.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I have an Echo WP FOM 2,208 with manual gain and I love it.

 

[TheHorta]

Tough to say conclusively, but the images seem to support the oft-repeated mantra of Photonis vs Elbit / L3 — when there is ambient or available light, the Photonis tubes compare very favorably and, under certain (urban) mixed lighting conditions may perform even better, but when the lights go out the Frog Tubes lose substantial ground and the Murica Toobs win handily.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Had a rare chance to compare two of these units almost identical in specifications.

I wrote down the key metrics for these units on a piece of paper so no one would freak out about Itar if I posted the spec sheets. They were very close with Ebi being the only thing with some difference between the two.

The Echo spec unit has no manual gain control- what others call "auto" gain which is actually no gain control.
https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD...cho-spec-WHITE-PHOSPHOR-EchoBNVDWHITEPHOS.htm


The BNVD with the Elbit XLS tubes has manual gain control and it was set high for this test to be close to what the no gain set was.

https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD...HITE-PHOSPHOR-Night-Vision-bino-XLSWPBNVD.htm


Conditions-

We went to our range in the Georgia swamps October 24th at 7:30 pm. Conditions were overcast, moon was not up yet, wasn't a lot of light IMO.


First pic was taken of a person standing out in the open approximately 50 yards from the camera. Camera man was standing in the open also.

First up- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes

Next- BNVD with Echo spec WP tubes

Then we went a little bit farther into the woods there and just in the 5-10 minutes since the first set of pics were taken, lighting conditions seemed to have worsened. Also the folks that have attended training at our range will attest that this area is very thick with tree cover, further cutting down on lighting conditions.

In the woods, approximately 30 yards, standing semi out of concealment

First- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes-

Next BNVD with Photonis Echo spec WP tubes-

Once again, while the specifications on these two units was close, the XLS tube was a good bit better on Ebi than the Echo.

You don't take your Night Vision pics in the desert with a full moon? What's wrong with you.....

 

[bllistc]

Does auto gain mean it is always at full gain? Only have a pvs-14 currently and would like to get binos in the future.

 

[Lowdown3]

Set high at the factory and you can't change it. "Auto" gain control = No control over gain on the user level.

 

[bllistc]

Set high at the factory and you can't change it. "Auto" gain control = No control over gain on the user level.

Is there a reason the echo binos don't have gain control? And is there anyone that makes echos with gain?

 

[Lowdown3]

90% of the dual tube sets on the market don't have gain control. The BNVDs do offer gain control but unfortunately not in the Photonis tubes. You can get Elbit or L3 tubes in a BNVD SG (single gain), but not Photonis tubes unfortunately.

 

[jwramp]

Yeah it's that European thing... LOL 1.5 on the Echo

God forbid I wrote down the specs not exactly as they showed on the sheets or I would get ripped up by the internet warriors, you know what I mean! This is why I put "(Convert)" next to it on the pic.

Gotcha, couldn’t quite read that, thought it said “correct”. Thanks for clarifying!

Edit - it’s a bummer Photonis isn’t sending out tubes with gain tails for those BNVDs. The 14 I used to have definitely had a functional gain control.

 

[Lowdown3]

I wasn't intending that to you, more a general comment on how certain folks pick apart things on the net. I made sure I put down the numbers as they appeared on the sheets so as to avoid someone thinking I was manipulating the numbers, etc.

Sorry if it came off like that to you, have great respect for you and what you do!

 

[ljstack]

As an interesting tidbit as we follow the Ukraine conflict, take special note and interest in the terrain and combat conditions in terms of lighting. What I've seen so far on the news is a lot of open terrain conducive to armor and maneuver, and what will be a lot of heavy urban operations in "dynamic lighting" conditions. This is what Photonis systems and tubes are designed for. What I mean by dynamic lighting conditions is lighting conditions that can change rapidly (dark rooms to lit rooms, open terrain with heavy fighting, weapon flash, explosions, flares, burning vehicles and people , etc., - basically going from dark to low light to bright and back to dark, etc.).

 

[bllistc]

As an interesting tidbit as we follow the Ukraine conflict, take special note and interest in the terrain and combat conditions in terms of lighting. What I've seen so far on the news is a lot of open terrain conducive to armor and maneuver, and what will be a lot of heavy urban operations in "dynamic lighting" conditions. This is what Photonis systems and tubes are designed for. What I mean by dynamic lighting conditions is lighting conditions that can change rapidly (dark rooms to lit rooms, open terrain with heavy fighting, weapon flash, explosions, flares, burning vehicles and people , etc., - basically going from dark to low light to bright and back to dark, etc.).

Interesting. Is there an explanation for this difference? Just curious. And any idea how L3 thin film and filmless tubes would compare?

 

[ljstack]

One explanation are the coatings. GEN 3 L3 and Elbit tubes use GaAs coatings. Because of GaAs an ion barrier film (filmed or thin film) is used to prevent premature erosion of the GaAs coating and to reduce the loss of electrons. This also results in higher battery consumption. Photonis uses a multi alkaloid coating with a nanostructured photocathode, because of that all Photonis tubes are filmless (edit note: Photonis has made Photonis GEN 3 tubes for very specific customers which have GaAs coatings and there may be a few out there in the market). Because we don't use GaAs coatings we're GEN 2, however the coatings last longer and use less battery and the technology has undergone remarkable advances in the last 10 years. The coatings for all manufacturer's tubes (amongst other proprietary items) is a key component in determining the spectral response. As you all know, Figure of Merit = Resolution (LP) X Signal to Noise (SN). If you look hard at GEN 3 specs you'll see that the LP number will vary in different light conditions. L3/Elbit tubes will go from a low of around 35 LP (for example) in higher ambient light conditions to a high, in this example, of 64 LP. Assuming no change in SN that means the spec given in this discussion thread will result in a FOM for an L3/Elbit tube of 31.8 x 35 to a high of 31.8 x 64 or a FOM between 1,113 to 2,035. On an ECHO tube the LP will not drop below 57. Therefore in the example given that's 31.9 x 57 to 31.9 x 64 or a FOM of 1,818 to 2,041. So the con for a GEN 3 is a wider FOM band under dynamic lighting conditions; however you get higher gain because of the GaAs coatings. That means we can make the image brighter in lower light conditions with more scintillation (grain), but you lose a little bit of resolution and may see "chicken wire" if the scene gets too bright. With the multi alkaloid coating you'll get a tighter FOM band meaning better resolution under dynamic lighting conditions, but you won't have as bright of an image in very low light conditions, even though you can still see the image clearly. At the end of the day however, it almost doesn't matter what the spec sheets says because the only thing that really matters is how it looks to YOU, and not the camera. People's brains interpret images differently from one person to the next.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I think it is easy to get obsessed with numbers even though once you get up to this class of unit, the practical differences are mute.

I have a PVS-14 Photonis Echo White FOM 2208 and doing side by side comparisons with much higher FOM units, and many lower, they all do the job well.

I like the way my unit views areas with a lot of light pollution better than some of the gen 3 units I've gotten to play with that had higher FOM. They tend to be better in near total darkness without using illumination, but when it gets very dark and you need to see into shadow, you use an IR illuminator anyway.

Elite military may need the last ounce of performance, but I don't feel any lack of performance and for what i do, I could have gone cheaper with no I'll effect.

 

[ljstack]

Yes, I think you nailed it. At the end of the day it's all about how the performance of the NOD looks to the individual. An an FYI one of the items we're developing in conjunction with another company is a 1064nm illuminator/flood light. That way if you need an illuminator at least when you turn it on other folks with GaAs tubes won't be able to see the illuminator well, if at all.

 

[ljstack]

Is there a reason the echo binos don't have gain control? And is there anyone that makes echos with gain?

You can get manual gain control on the Vyper/Hyper mono's. In link photo you can see the gain control knob. https://photonisdefense.com/night-vision/night-vision-systems/#vyper-tm. You can obtain these from Eliteuas as they have a SH discount or other distributors on our website.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Yes, I think you nailed it. At the end of the day it's all about how the performance of the NOD looks to the individual. An an FYI one of the items we're developing in conjunction with another company is a 1064nm illuminator/flood light. That way if you need an illuminator at least when you turn it on other folks with GaAs tubes won't be able to see the illuminator well, if at all.

I could be very intrested in that illuminator depending upon strength and features.

 

[bllistc]

Yes, I think you nailed it. At the end of the day it's all about how the performance of the NOD looks to the individual. An an FYI one of the items we're developing in conjunction with another company is a 1064nm illuminator/flood light. That way if you need an illuminator at least when you turn it on other folks with GaAs tubes won't be able to see the illuminator well, if at all.

What is the IR band that photonis tubes can see into? I remember reading somewhere that they could see further into the IR spectrum than gen 3 tubes but I didn't look into it much further.

I have a photonis echo PVS-14 with a 2000+ FOM currently and will be upgrading to binos eventually but I haven't been able to compare them to many other tubes side by side.

 

[ljstack]

The Photonis spectrum band will be below 400nm to above 1,000 nm. And its relative - so GaAs tubes will also see "something" below 400nm and above 1,000nm but not efficiently. A typical GEN 3 will see a 1064nm laser faintly in very dark conditions, and perhaps not at all if there is any level of light - for example, if you had your IR illuminator on it would more than likely wash out a 1064nm laser spot for a GEN 3 tube. So generally speaking a GEN 3 will lose a 1064nm laser spot after 3-20 feet whereas your Echo will see it very brightly in dark to highly luminated scenarios (i.e., your IR illuminator is on or you have IR floods as perimeter security lighting, for long distances (hundreds of yards in very dark conditions).

By the way, if you plan to upgrade to binos consider getting a PD-PRO-16M (monocular) and then get another one as your budget permits. Bridge those two together so you have your binocular. That way you have two redundant systems and the weight of the combined PD-PRO-16Ms will be comparable or even lighter than plastic housed Binos, except your system will be hardened metal housings.

 

[bllistc]

The Photonis spectrum band will be below 400nm to above 1,000 nm. And its relative - so GaAs tubes will also see "something" below 400nm and above 1,000nm but not efficiently. A typical GEN 3 will see a 1064nm laser faintly in very dark conditions, and perhaps not at all if there is any level of light - for example, if you had your IR illuminator on it would more than likely wash out a 1064nm laser spot for a GEN 3 tube. So generally speaking a GEN 3 will lose a 1064nm laser spot after 3-20 feet whereas your Echo will see it very brightly in dark to highly luminated scenarios (i.e., your IR illuminator is on or you have IR floods as perimeter security lighting, for long distances (hundreds of yards in very dark conditions).

By the way, if you plan to upgrade to binos consider getting a PD-PRO-16M (monocular) and then get another one as your budget permits. Bridge those two together so you have your binocular. That way you have two redundant systems and the weight of the combined PD-PRO-16Ms will be comparable or even lighter than plastic housed Binos, except your system will be hardened metal housings.

I had to look those up. Is there any benefit besides weight savings and some durability? The monocular is almost twice the cost of a PVS14 with a photonis tube. Same for the pd-pro-16b binos compared to other housings.

Also, are 4G and echo spec just photonis’ distinction for performance like the 18/20 UM for L3?

 

[ljstack]

First, keep in mind that whatever NODs you choose from whatever manufacturer you choose , if it looks good to you and you're happy then then that's what you should get.

For our PD-PRO line you don't get "some durability" you get NODS that are more rugged than MILSPEC, and designed and manufactured specifically for Photonis tubes. For our branded systems we like to say; "Better than MILSPEC allows." It's not the same thing as just putting Photonis tubes into someone else's housings. Photonis branded system ruggedness is well above anything you'll see in a resin (plastic) housing . Everything in our own branded systems are designed to enhance the performance of our tubes. The front objective lenses, for example, have glass and coatings specifically designed for our tubes. The metal housings are designed to be fully submersible all the way to 66 feet. I doubt that you plan on scuba diving with NODS to 66 feet, however you get that level of ruggedness with our systems. In night vision you truly get what you pay for, so its up to you to determine if the extra cash is worth it. Personally, I run two PD-PRO-16Ms for my Bino setup just for the redundancy. I also have a Photonis Vyper PVS-14 with a 4G tube instead of an Echo. All Echo tubes come from our 4G manufacturing line, but for one reason or another don't meet our 4G specs. However that doesn't mean they are "fallouts." We often produce Echo tubes by design rather than a fallout from a 4G tube. The Photonis 4G standard is defined as an extended bandwidth from below 400nm to above 1,000nm; FOM above 1800, resolution always higher than 64LP and never below 57LP (in high ambient light) and a Halo of 0.75 or less. The 4G standard is a Photonis defined standard. Since the Echo comes from the 4G manufacturing line you'll always have the less than 400nm to above 1,000nm spectral response, so an Echo tube is a great choice if you can't get a 4G.

 

[Lowdown3]

Is there a reason the echo binos don't have gain control? And is there anyone that makes echos with gain?

The BNVD dual tube units we were originally discussing in the thread will soon be available with gain control on the Photonis Echo spec tubes.