Body Die Blues......

[Potsy]

So I've fired my .22BR brass 4 times, neck sizing only. So, I thought I'd run it through my Redding body die and bump the shoulders back the requisite .002".
Using a Rock Chucker press w/either a Lee or RCBS shell holder. The shell holder has hit the bottom of the die. Shoulders have moved forward .001". I understand how this happens, shoulders "squeeze" forward in the die, but that doesn't help my dilema.
Sooooo, do I need the Redding Competition shell holders? Something else? Am I doing something wrong?
Any and all advice appreciated!!!!

 

[KnowNothing256]

I can say you don’t need the Competition Shellholders, those would only result in longer cases, that’s what they’re designed for.

This sounds like a die problem, maybe machined too long? If it happens across different shellholders then maybe to reach out to Redding?

Curious to hear other suggestions.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Sandpaper and a surface plate. Gently take off 3-5k from the bottom of the die and try resizing them again.

 

[CaptArab]

Sounds like a good excuse to buy the sac modular sizing die

 

[Potsy]

Thought I'd try taking a bit off the shell holder, they're cheaper and I have a few. Any reason that wouldn't work?
If that can't/won't work, I'll go to work on the bottom of the die.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Thought I'd try taking a bit off the shell holder, they're cheaper and I have a few. Any reason that wouldn't work?
If that can't/won't work, I'll go to work on the bottom of the die.

No reason at all, go for it.

 

[rustyinbend]

I can say you don’t need the Competition Shellholders, those would only result in longer cases, that’s what they’re designed for.

This sounds like a die problem, maybe machined too long? If it happens across different shellholders then maybe to reach out to Redding?

With respect ... I don't believe this is true. Using the Competition Shellholder set solves this. Seat the die initially touching the .010 shellholder. Then moving "down" to .008, .006, etc. down to .002 bumps the shoulder another .002 with each subsequent shellholder. Most of my reloads bump best setting up with the .010 holder, and then sizing with the .004 holder. Now it obviously could increase the length of the neck as you bump the shoulder, but that's why you trim after sizing.

Bottom line ... the shellholder set is specifically designed to increase the bump in .002 increments until you have what you need.

 

[KnowNothing256]

With respect ... I don't believe this is true. Using the Competition Shellholder set solves this. Seat the die initially touching the .010 shellholder. Then moving "down" to .008, .006, etc. down to .002 bumps the shoulder another .002 with each subsequent shellholder. Most of my reloads bump best setting up with the .010 holder, and then sizing with the .004 holder. Now it obviously could increase the length of the neck as you bump the shoulder, but that's why you trim after sizing.

Bottom line ... the shellholder set is specifically designed to increase the bump in .002 increments until you have what you need.

I don’t disagree with most of what you said, but you’re basing your description on the premise that a standard shell holder makes the headspace too short. The reason you start with the +0.010” holder per the instructions is to leave the case too long, then work it shorter by 0.002” increments until you’re where you want. Problem is, OP’s case is already too long with a standard shell holder, which is equivalent to a +0.000” Competition Shellholder. He doesn’t need any help making them longer, which is what that product is for.

ETA: Appreciate the respectful disagreement, btw. Too easy on the internet to forget that it’s a real person on the other end, ya know?

 

[CaptArab]

I agree with knownothing and would grind the die.

 

[rustyinbend]

I don’t disagree with most of what you said, but you’re basing your description on the premise that a standard shell holder makes the headspace too short. The reason you start with the +0.010” holder per the instructions is to leave the case too long, then work it shorter by 0.002” increments until you’re where you want. Problem is, OP’s case is already too long with a standard shell holder, which is equivalent to a +0.000” Competition Shellholder. He doesn’t need any help making them longer, which is what that product is for.

ETA: Appreciate the respectful disagreement, btw. Too easy on the internet to forget that it’s a real person on the other end, ya know?

I suggest you don't think of it as "... leave the case too short or too long ...". Think of it as starting with a lower (.010) shellholder setting and raise the case further into the die with each subsequent .002 holder to bump the shoulder "back more" as you decrease the shellholder number. It's a little counter-intuitive and took me a bit to understand fully. You size to bump the shoulder, and then trim for length. You don't size for length to avoid trimming and hope the shoulder moves where you want it to go. At least that's what I've found to be true.

 

[rustyinbend]

Oh ... and I will ALWAYS debate respectfully. The Internet brings out the worst in many people. I refuse to let that happen.

 

[FCS]

So I've fired my .22BR brass 4 times, neck sizing only. So, I thought I'd run it through my Redding body die and bump the shoulders back the requisite .002".
Using a Rock Chucker press w/either a Lee or RCBS shell holder. The shell holder has hit the bottom of the die. Shoulders have moved forward .001". I understand how this happens, shoulders "squeeze" forward in the die, but that doesn't help my dilema.
Sooooo, do I need the Redding Competition shell holders? Something else? Am I doing something wrong?
Any and all advice appreciated!!!!

Body die is squeezing down body brass flows forward, moving shoulder.
Modify shell holder, cheaper and allows you to use with other std case head cartridges.
This happens more often than most think.

 

[rustyinbend]

I solved the "... die bottoming out without moving the shoulder ..." problem with the Redding Competition Shellholder set ... but to each his own ... whatever works.

 

[FCS]

I suggest you don't think of it as "... leave the case too short or too long ...". Think of it as starting with a lower (.010) shellholder setting and raise the case further into the die with each subsequent .002 holder to bump the shoulder "back more" as you decrease the shellholder number. It's a little counter-intuitive and took me a bit to understand fully. You size to bump the shoulder, and then trim for length. You don't size for length to avoid trimming and hope the shoulder moves where you want it to go. At least that's what I've found to be true.

HS length, not case length is how I was reading knownothing256 post. Semantics
Competition shell holders won’t help in this situation as case needs to go further into die, not less. Competition shell holders reduce how far into die the brass can go.

 

[Sheldon N]

Using a Rock Chucker press w/either a Lee or RCBS shell holder. The shell holder has hit the bottom of the die. Shoulders have moved forward .001". I understand how this happens, shoulders "squeeze" forward in the die, but that doesn't help my dilema.
Sooooo, do I need the Redding Competition shell holders? Something else? Am I doing something wrong?

When you say "shell holder has hit the bottom of the die".... just want to make sure you are using all of the cam-over in the press. Keep screwing the die down until you can cam over the press with some moderately firm effort with no brass in it. That will be the maximum amount of shoulder bump you can get out of the system.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Sandpaper and a surface plate. Gently take off 3-5k from the bottom of the die and try resizing them again.

It's much, much easier and cheaper if you fuck it up to remove a couple thousands from the top of the shell holder.

If you remove it from the die bottom, you better radius and polish it or it'll scratch your cases.

 

[rustyinbend]

HS length, not case length is how I was reading knownothing256 post. Semantics
Competition shell holders won’t help in this situation as case needs to go further into die, not less. Competition shell holders reduce how far into die the brass can go.

Hummm ... my die setup bottoms out on the .010 shellholder without any shoulder bump. Then I go "down" in number (to usually .004) and the shoulder bumps correctly (I size for .002 bump for bolt and .004 bump for my AR10). Maybe my setup works because I don't have to cram to setup or build a lot of cam-over for the shellholders to work as advertised. There are always multiple ways to solve a problem ... this was mine.

 

[Mike Casselton]

It takes less than 30 seconds to sand the top of a shell holder

 

[rustyinbend]

It's much, much easier and cheaper if you fuck it up to remove a couple thousands from the top of the shell holder.

If you remove it from the die bottom, you better radius and polish it or it'll scratch your cases.

Grinding the die never crossed my mind when I was wrestling with this. I just don't have the tools to pull that off, or the talent not to f**k it up.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Hummm ... my die setup bottoms out on the .010 shellholder without any shoulder bump. Then I go "down" in number (to usually .004) and the shoulder bumps correctly (I size for .002 bump for bolt and .004 bump for my AR10). Maybe my setup works because I don't have to cram to setup or build a lot of cam-over for the shellholders to work as advertised. There are always multiple ways to solve a problem ... this was mine.

Yes, but OP’s die bottoms out on the 0.000” one with no bump. He needs some “negative” shellholder, and the Reddings are all positive (add more HS compared to the minimum HS length obtained by a standard shellholder). He needs his setup to deliver less HS than he’s currently getting, not more.

 

[Sheldon N]

I solved the "... die bottoming out without moving the shoulder ..." problem with the Redding Competition Shellholder set ... but to each his own ... whatever works.

I believe the Redding die set is meant to adjust headspace by each shell holder having different heights, when measured from the top of the ram to the die itself. (ie changing the height of the platform that the case head sits on).

The die bottoming out problem is solely due to the height of the upper deck of the shellholder sticking up too far above the platform that the case head rests on. I suspect if you measured that deck height of a standard shell holder and compared it to the different competition shell holders, you'd find that the upper deck height was lower on the competition shell holders. While that's not specifically related to their design intent, it would solve the problem of the die bottoming out.

 

[rustyinbend]

Yes, but OP’s die bottoms out on the 0.000” one with no bump. He needs some “negative” shellholder, and the Reddings are all positive (add more HS compared to the minimum HS length obtained by a standard shellholder). He needs his setup to deliver less HS than he’s currently getting, not more.

Got it ... makes sense. Never thought that "negative" shellholders might be needed. Didn't even know that was "a thing". Learning every day ...

 

[FLIGHT762]

If your die will not bump the shoulder enough with a regular shell holder, the Redding Competition shell holders will NOT bump to a shorter bump. The deck of a regular shell holder measures .125". The Redding Competition shell holders increase (+) the deck in .002" increments. From .127" to .135" which LOWERS the brass case out of the die which will lengthen the shoulder bump. Anyone who actually uses these knows this. I use them for three cartridges. They are a great tool.

For the O/P, as others have said, either sand off the bottom of the die or a regular shell holder. I have done both with success. that will get you where you need to be.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Got it ... makes sense. Never thought that "negative" shellholders might be needed. Didn't even know that was "a thing". Learning every day ...

They aren’t an official thing, I think, although I’d be interested to hear if some outfit machined them with a similar setup to the Reddings but in the opposite direction. Most people just do what’s been suggested, sand it down. Doesn’t make too much difference that it won’t be perfectly level, because the die shouldn’t have enough play in the press to “tip” sufficiently to bend the case off of its central long axis.

My first Lee turret press was slightly off alignment and I was getting tons of failures to fire; basically gave up on reloading for years. Then came back to it cause I was bored and had more guns, and my 45ACP sizing die landed on the case rim. Made me look closely and realized it was off, couldn’t get it fixed with some aggressive metal removal, so I just tossed it and bought a new one. Works fine haha. Anyway, long way of saying bending the case off-axis will definitely cause problems, but I don’t think a minor bit of “non-levelness” at the shellholder face will hurt in this case.

 

[Potsy]

Many thanks guys!!!

 

[Tokay444]

I would cut .020" off the shell holder, and leave the die alone.

 

[marchboom]

Potsy, after you run the case into the body die and check to make sure the trim length is within specs, does it chamber OK?

I would give Redding a call and run this issue past them.

 

[Steel head]

In that situation I prefer to sand the shellholder

Like Sheldon said, just because they touch doesn’t mean you can’t still trying to screw the die down a bit more.
Sometimes the schmush works magic fighting through slop in the system.

 

[eschafer]

why not slip a feeler gauge shim between the case head and the shell holder?.... start with 0.002" shim... if it's not enough, increase with more shim... often, one can get as much as 0.010" of shim between case head and shell holder.. (it would act like a "negative" Redding Competition Shell Holder)... I've got a set of feeler gauges on my bench constantly... no grinding of die or shell holder required...

 

[Potsy]

So I went out to the shop and put a piece of 100 grit on the bench and started rubbing the shell holder on it. Figured out after a while I was getting nowhere fast. Realized that those things are made hard enough that you don't rip the lips out of them trying to yank a stuck case out of a die so I was gonna need a different approach.
Ran a machine screw through the hole (screw head on top), ran a nut down the bottom, tightened, chucked the screw end in the drill press, wrapped 100 grit around a small plywood block, clamped it in the vise, and took a few thou off of it.
Between that, and some cam-over, I got my .002" bump.
I neck sized a few this evening and they chambered fine, even leaving the bottom .1" or so of the neck untouched.
I'm not gonna bother calling Redding just to be told it's "in spec". Been down that road. Just understand that if you buy a Redding .22BR body die, you're likely gonna have to peel a bit off the shell holder.
Thanks for all the helpful replies!!!

 

[KnowNothing256]

Nice work, glad you got it squared away

 

[ACard]

So I went out to the shop and put a piece of 100 grit on the bench and started rubbing the shell holder on it. Figured out after a while I was getting nowhere fast. Realized that those things are made hard enough that you don't rip the lips out of them trying to yank a stuck case out of a die so I was gonna need a different approach.
Ran a machine screw through the hole (screw head on top), ran a nut down the bottom, tightened, chucked the screw end in the drill press, wrapped 100 grit around a small plywood block, clamped it in the vise, and took a few thou off of it.
Between that, and some cam-over, I got my .002" bump.
I neck sized a few this evening and they chambered fine, even leaving the bottom .1" or so of the neck untouched.
I'm not gonna bother calling Redding just to be told it's "in spec". Been down that road. Just understand that if you buy a Redding .22BR body die, you're likely gonna have to peel a bit off the shell holder.
Thanks for all the helpful replies!!!

I had this same issue with my redding 260 improved body die. However, I sent it to redding with five fully foreformed cases. Redding sent back a die that perfectly bumped my shoulders back 0.004, i then used the comp shell holders to get it to 0.02. They never suggested it was something they would not address even though it was in SAAMI specs.