bolt hard to close question

[JC Steel]

I am shooting my tikka t3 lite in 270 wsm. I have loaded up my rounds to be send downfield or downrange and did something wrong.
I got to the range and put a round in. Here is what happened.

The bolt would push forward fine but when I would try to close the bolt down it was very tough. Some rounds were tougher than others and some were impossible to get it. Its not the bullets because I checked my seting depth and I am .020 off the lands.

What did I do wrong and how can I fix it in the future?

 

[JC Steel]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I needed bump to shoulder back .002. I did not do that. My bad. Anymore advice will help but I think this is the problem.

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: bolt hard to close question

You might want to up to .005 bump on them. Its easy to tell if its the bullets seated to long you will see the land marks on it after you get it ejected. They will like to stick as well. I use a r7 press and just leave the dies set in it. Then you never have to worry about messing with them. There is another trick i use when it comes to shoulder bump. I take the end of the barrel or another piece and run a chamber reamer in it until the shoulder. It gives you a perfect gauge to check the length to shoulder with a pair of calipers. Once you fire a few you know where you chamber is at and finding where it like the bump the most can have a big effect on accuracy, vertical is the most common proplem.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: bolt hard to close question

This is exactly why I cycle the first few reloaded rounds through my rifle. This insure that I do not end up with a batch of 30 to 50 rounds that have problems with.

 

[jrob300]

Re: bolt hard to close question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru ⊕</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to up to .005 bump on them. </div></div>

Do you as a matter of course process ALL your brass this way, or do you chamber check them first and cull?

I have the Redding body die. I'm assuming you'd use that or an FL die or is there a special die that moves the shoulder w/o touching the rest of the brass?

John

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Make sure your primers are seated also. If they are sticking out any this can make your Bolt hard to close.

 

[JC Steel]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Yeah primers are seated perfectly. I am going to have to take the advice from crazy dog and start cycling a few rounds through before I load 47 more and find I can use them. Good advice guys....

Jake

 

[CowboyBart]

Re: bolt hard to close question

A normal FL die should fix this. However, you may lose some accuracy. I generally use a FL die but only run it down to allow .030" clearance from the shellholder. This process neck and web sizes but it doesn't touch the shoulder.

 

[Innovative]

Re: bolt hard to close question

jcvibby .......

You need to "measure" the clearance in your chamber (at the shoulder), and verify that your die is making your handloads fit. Keep in mind that your cases are tapered, and your handloads will chamber reliably if you full size accurately. Even benchrest shooters are full length resizing!

Check out our new Digital Headspace Gauge on our website. It's ease to use, and it works on ALL calibers.

- Innovative

 

[minnesotadan]

Re: bolt hard to close question

sounds more like a bump problem case shoulder too long rather than a OAL issue

dan

 

[JC Steel]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Innovative I have a full length sizer but how do I do that?

 

[Hummer]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Size case as normal.
Take out decap rod.

WHILE EMPTY see if case goes in chamber and how easy the bolt closes. If it closes hard and you are not touching the shell holder run die down a bit at a time and keep resizing the case.

If the die is touching the shell holder and you still get hard close you will need to send die back to maker or chuck die up in lathe and take off about .015" from the bottom. Re-radius the bottom of the die like original and screw back in press.

Leave the new bottom of the die about .015" off the shell holder and run case in again. If still hard turn die about 1/8th turn and try it again.

When case goes in easy try more cases and see if they do as well. Crank down you set screw and you have it adjusted so it will just touch.

Good idea to get a L.E. Wilson case gage as well. That will tell you alot about a die as well.

I have had to cut about 1/4th of my dies (about 15) that were cut to deep at factory and I had to qualify them to size correctly.

 

[pistolpete75]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Hummer is right on.

Make sure you are properly full length sizing, and you'll be good to go.

 

[rootsy]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I'd also be looking at the neck length.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I had similar symptoms before I got more religious about checking case length.

 

[CaptLink]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I always found the easiest way to set the FL sizer without setting the shoulder back is first put a fired case in the shell holder(from the gun you are reloading from)and run the ram up to the die then screw the die down until you feel resistance.Then remove the case from the press and smoke the shoulder with a candle or a old style Zippo lighter reinstall case and slowly screw the die in a little at a time until you just kiss the shoulder you may have to screw it in just a tad more to allow the bolt to close easily its a old well proven method (don't have your powder out when you do this)Good Shooting to you sir Pat

 

[CowboyBart]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I never tried the "turning .015" off of the bottom of the die" method. Aren't the dies hardened?? Maybe milling .015" off the shell holder would be easier. I don't know if the shellholders are hardened.

 

[FNG]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Not trying to steel the thread but i have the same problem now. I did the same process as usual and brass will not load. I noticed on my other loads that there was a line on the neck where the FL die appeared to stop so I tried to adjust it down. Put several of these into the chamber and would not go. I reset the die and still would not work. Then cleaned the die out, tried again and still nothing. I have no clue now. I am going to try what P.A.R. suggested.

 

[918v]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Do what Hummer said. It may be that the expander ball is pulling the shoulder forward on the way out of the neck.

I'd ditch the FL die if I were you and replace it with a body die and a collet neck die.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: bolt hard to close question

It has to be the shoulder and overall length to the shoulder is to long recheck shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: P.A.R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always found the easiest way to set the FL sizer without setting the shoulder back is first put a fired case in the shell holder(from the gun you are reloading from)and run the ram up to the die then screw the die down until you feel resistance.Then remove the case from the press and smoke the shoulder with a candle or a old style Zippo lighter reinstall case and slowly screw the die in a little at a time until you just kiss the shoulder you may have to screw it in just a tad more to allow the bolt to close easily its a old well proven method (don't have your powder out when you do this)Good Shooting to you sir Pat </div></div>

 

[Hummer]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Dies are case hardened about .005" deep, not all the way through. A carbide lathe tool will cut through it just fine. High speed will take a bit longer but will get through.

Radius the bottom of the die like when it was new and polish with emery cloth and you won't be able to tell it was done at all. I have even cut chromed dies and hard coated dies. No real problem at all.

The expander button just tends to stretch the case neck and shortens case life.

With what they are getting for shell holders today you are gambling on whether it will work or not but the theory is the same.

Someone mentioned seeing where die stops on neck. That is indication of big problems.

The most important tool a reloader needs is a Wilson Case Gage for every caliber he is going to load. Without that you don't know where you are and don't know where you need to be and don't know when you have arrived.

CASE GAGES ARE CRITICAL

I like the idea of the body die and neck bushing. I am thinking of getting a 30.06 and 308 set up like this.

The next most critical thing is to have clean cases for loading.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I have been down this road.

Many FL resizing dies, even when screwed down and touching the shell plate, don't bump the shoulder back far enough to spec (or for your particular chamber).
This will be made evident when it is difficult to chamber or extract a resized case (or live round ...be careful).
If this is the case then a dremel or similar moto-tool with the little sanding drum works wonders.
Simply measure you die and record it's starting length.
Grind as evenly as possible and check your progress.
A dial caliper reading can keep you square.
Remove about two thousanths off the face, resize a case with the die screwed down and touching the shell holder like it was before, and chamber this case and note any resistance to bolt closure.
If the bolt closes with a hair of resistance then your probably done.
Auto loaders are generally more reliable with less resistance.
With less resistance to bolt closure comes reduced brass life as well so pick your resistance level, lock down that die, and make all your brass the same.
The only gauge required is the chamber that you're loading for.

I hope this helps.
I had to learn this the hard way of coarse.

 

[FNG]

Re: bolt hard to close question

An update... I tried more last night and still have the same problem of not chambering. Looked at RCBS's(my dies) website and they say to put the die in until it touches the shell holder and then turn it in an 1/8th or 1/4 turn more. What do you guys think. I've been taught and read to unscrew the die 1 to 3/4 turn out then go from there. And again with it set at 3/4 out I loaded some and they worked fine. WTF

 

[jrob300]

Re: bolt hard to close question

When I was using RCBS FL dies, I used them to partially resize and bump the shoulder (as has been described in this thread). In my 300WM, to get the round to just chamber, the die was kissing the shellholder as the ram went over center at the top of the stroke. If you are backing off 3/4 to full turn, you may not be getting the shoulder bumped back enough.

Related but different thought. I have since switched to a Redding body die and have been doing load development for a new barrel, so I have brass that has been exposed to a variety of pressures.

With no adjustments to the body die at all, I can get up to .006" difference in head to shoulder measurement using a comparator. What I'm finding with my setup is, cases that were loaded hot and have expanded .001-.0015" more above the belt will bump the shoulder so that they just rechamber (requires significant effort to press the case into the die and withdraw). Cases that were loaded cooler and did not expand above the belt very much insert very easily into the body die and withdraw easily. Thier shoulders end up being .004-.006 shorter.

My hypothesis: the extra force required to press the larger cases is showing up as flex somewhere in my press or linkage. I want to set up a dial indicator to prove this to myself, but I have not set aside the time.

I say this because you may be experiencing something similar. My large cases were very hard to rechamber, not due to shoulder being really long, but the case above the belt dragging on the chamber wall (verified by tumbling, rechambering and looking for the abrasion marks.)

Sorry for the novel. Maybe it'll kick something lose...

John

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: bolt hard to close question

To jrob300:
I have noticed shoulder variances too.
They were reduced when I started doing this:
With a properly adjusted die (I loctite mine so it stays), resize a case like normal but stop a the apex, withdraw the case from the die just enough to break free of its grip and then resize it again. (Don't allow the expander ball to do anything)

The reason that I believe this works is that the brass is compressing a little under the force of the ram and the friction of the die.
The second time in the resizing forces are much less and you can feel the shoulder bumping a little more.

Try it and you'll see.

 

[jrob300]

Re: bolt hard to close question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To jrob300:
resize a case like normal but stop a the apex, withdraw the case from the die just enough to break free of its grip and then resize it again.</div></div>

Good call. I'll try this next time I resize. Unfortunately, I just resized 250 cases.

John

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: bolt hard to close question

I have a shell holder that is different than another of the same size. I don't know
if it was ground as I got it with a die set used, but I can tell you it will cause a lot of
grief if you ever grab the wrong one. Grind the die if it has a problem, not the shell
holder.

 

[myerfire]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Recently I was having trouble closing my bolt. After 5 firings I anneal and trim case necks, but last time, I forgot to trim. As it turned out, my cases were the same or .001 longer than the chamber. I trimmed the cases and everything went back to normal.
myerfire

 

[918v]

Re: bolt hard to close question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My hypothesis: the extra force required to press the larger cases is showing up as flex somewhere in my press or linkage. I want to set up a dial indicator to prove this to myself, but I have not set aside the time.

</div></div>

It's true. The harder the case goes into the die, the more flex you get in the system. That is why I use Redding Competition shellholders.

 

[FNG]

Re: bolt hard to close question

Another Update... worked on this again yesterday and started with my FL die 1 turn out and started turning it in until brass would chamber. By the time I was done and one chambered my die was screwed in to the shell holder and then a quarter turn in more. Which is what the RCBS web site says to set them at.

 

[918v]

Re: bolt hard to close question

By turning the die a quarter turn past the point it touches your shellholder, you compensated for frame flex. Just understand that you cannot use this adjustment point universally from rifle to rifle with every die/shellholder combination.

 

[FNG]

Re: bolt hard to close question

918v, correct my other dies for other cals are set different and this is strickly for my 308.

 

[Innovative]

Re: bolt hard to close question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Innovative I have a full length sizer but how do I do that? </div></div>

jcvibby ........

This thread has had so much activity, I completely missed your second question. It's a very good idea to <span style="text-decoration: underline">start by measuring</span> your chamber clearance (at the shoulder). Our <span style="font-weight: bold">Digital Headspace Gauge </span> gets this information by comparing one of your handloads to one of your fired cases. Then it shows how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR particular chamber. That's the best way to adjust your die height and make your loads fit perfectly - without guessing.

Unlike the RCBS Precision Mic, our Digital Headspace Gauge works on ALL calibers. Unlike the Stoney Point tool (now Hornady) our gauge doesn't require using a collection of bushings to operate, and you don't need to balance your cases on the blade of calipers to measure a case.

As a bonus, our Digital Headspace Gauge <span style="font-weight: bold">ALSO</span> measures your bullet "jump" to the rifling accurately, by measuring back from the bullet ogive. It's described on my website. Check it out. If you have more questions email me at <span style="text-decoration: underline">[email protected]</span>

- Innovative