Bolt hard to pull back ?

[Bratcher02]

I have a load that I know isn’t hot cause I have some that I have loaded up before and the bolt comes back with out a problem but I loaded up some more and shot them the other day and they bolt lifts like normal but when I try and pull the bolt back to eject the round I have to damn near Mortor the rifle to get it to come back ?
I have compared the ammo that doesn’t do this which is the same load I’m loading now and the head space is he same or a little less on the shoulder that the stuff I have had loaded for a while and the bolt come back fine with so it’s has me puzzled!
I use a Redding type -S bushing die and I’m pumping the shoulder back about 2-3 thou. The brass is Peterson that I’m having the issue with but the old stuff is lapua that’s the only difference between the rounds no flat primer or craters which it’s never been a hot load for me in any weather just looking for ideas as to what could be causing the issues I first thought it might be the headspace but the bolt closes easy on and lifts easy even after the shot it’s just at the top of the lift when you go to slide the bolt back it’s really hard I’m at a loss please help if you can thanks ! Adam

P.s. it’s a Remington 700 spa tactical in 308 win.

 

[lash]

We just had a thread similar to this. First off, you didn't really provide good information in that you don't tell us the environmental details of the load that worked vs the load that didn't. Secondly, and probably most importantly, you have the same load in two different brands of brass. When changing brass brands, it's not a given that your proven load will work exactly the same. Thirdly, did you use the same lot of powder for both loads? All of these are factors in loading your own. You ignore them at your own risk.

 

[Bratcher02]

It’s 43.5gr of varget over a 168 AMAX which I have shot with my Peterson brass before as well as the load that is doing fine in the lapua I’m just curious as to if anything else could be the issue as the lot of varget is the same bought 8 of same lot and still on the same lot of powder I think I answered all the added info you asked for sorry I tried to give you all the info I could think of but I’m not perfect as that’s why I’m having problems lol

 

[lash]

What you have to address then, is what thing or things have changed since this same load worked well before. A new lot of brass? Powder storage conditions changed since before? Loading and or shooting environmentals different (I.e. Temperature or humidity)?
And etc.

Any time that you are looking for the root cause of a new issue, you are best served by at least starting with your focus on anything at all that has changed.

 

[Bratcher02]

What you have to address then, is what thing or things have changed since this same load worked well before. A new lot of brass? Powder storage conditions changed since before? Loading and or shooting environmentals different (I.e. Temperature or humidity)?
And etc.

Any time that you are looking for the root cause of a new issue, you are best served by at least starting with your focus on anything at all that has changed.

Nothing had changed reloading room is the same as before my heat and air controlled basement which is dry but thanks for the help I’ll just keep working on it just figured I would ask for things it might be that I could try done all I can think off as checking the brass after sized in comparison to the load that works fine brass and everything is the same also I thought that a heavy bolt lift would be different than the bolt not pulling back hard either way I’ll keep working on it

 

[lash]

You are not wrong. The two are different. So let's take a look at the bolt itself. Is there anything mechanically that is hindering the rearward motion of the bolt? Is it the bolt itself or is it the brass hanging in the chamber? When the empty case comes out, is it scarred or marked in any way? Have you taken measure to to compare fired cases of the new brass vs. the Lapua brass?

 

[Bratcher02]

You are not wrong. The two are different. So let's take a look at the bolt itself. Is there anything mechanically that is hindering the rearward motion of the bolt? Is it the bolt itself or is it the brass hanging in the chamber? When the empty case comes out, is it scarred or marked in any way? Have you taken measure to to compare fired cases of the new brass vs. the Lapua brass?

Yes I seen a small mark on the brass on a few but some that was hard to remove had not makes so I don’t know if it’s from the chamber or where I have to Mortor the rifle to get the bolt to the rear it might be hitting the ejection port and making a nic in it and yes I have compared to the 2 different brass after firing and measure the same i greased boot lugs and bolt just to makes sure it is all good but still no joy I can shoot one of the old with no issue and then a new one and have issue I’ve heard of guys having issues with neck sizing kind of like this but that why I use the type S bushing die from Redding so it always full length resizes the body to prevent or I thought would prevent this issue

 

[Subwrx300]

Just had same thing happen today. When I inspected brass (before and after) it had shiny spot from 10-2oclock where it was binding at the very beginning of the chamber... I set dies up again and checked: shoulder bump on fired brass was .0005-001. moved down *slightly* to .0015-.002 and Viola! Problem gone.

I'm guessing a few peices of brass were a bit under sized and maybe your chamber got a bit dry/dirty. I'd try setting shoulder back slightly more. Peterson may also be stretching a bit more than Lapua (different alloy?) and require a slightly different die setup to stay in spec.

Also, If you aren't firing brass same day, it may spring back slightly and create the problem your seeing. Just my thoughts. Hope you find the solution!

 

[Bratcher02]

Thanks for the thought but I actually tried that today set it back .002 more than the lapua and still had the issue I can’t help but think it’s the brass or my sizing issue somewhere but I might swab out the chamber to make sure cause my Lapua is set back less and still runs smoother than the Peterson but will double check it again tonight and see kind of sucks it’s not issue till after I fire the round cause as I size I Check and chambers fine and ejects fine but after firing is the problem smh feel like I’m going in circles 3000 round threw this gun and now I start having crazy issues lol thanks for the input

 

[Subwrx300]

Weird. Can you measure the diameter of the case at base and a few points along the length? My factory Howa chamber developed a ring in the middle of the chamber that had bulged ever so slightly and allowed brass to become convex in the middle. Every once in a while, I'd get the exact condition you described. Happened around 2500 rounds using Hornady brass. Ended up just tossing the pieces that got sticky.

Showed up as a slightly scratched looking ring nearly exactly half way up the body of the case. You could try polishing the chamber to see if that helps. Good luck!

 

[Bratcher02]

Weird. Can you measure the diameter of the case at base and a few points along the length? My factory Howa chamber developed a ring in the middle of the chamber that had bulged ever so slightly and allowed brass to become convex in the middle. Every once in a while, I'd get the exact condition you described. Happened around 2500 rounds using Hornady brass. Ended up just tossing the pieces that got sticky.

Showed up as a slightly scratched looking ring nearly exactly half way up the body of the case. You could try polishing the chamber to see if that helps. Good luck!

What you discrided does look like that on my cases but it’s all the way around looks like someone scruffed up the brass with steel wool or something just figured it was from the hard extraction but that might be it I did check the body of the case just up from the head but I’ll check a few more spots and make sure thanks

 

[Supersubes]

A bolt that lifts heavy is caused by a case that’s long in headspace. A bolt that lifts normally but won’t travel rearward is caused by a case that’s fat in the web(base). Barring any other mechanical issues of course. How many firings on this brass? If you have a micrometer, take some comparative measurements between cases that extract and those that don’t, just above the extractor groove. You’ll probably find your answer there. Also, newer Remington’s have absolutely shit primary extraction. Literally the extractor cam surfaces don’t even touch one another due to improper bolt handle placement on the bolt body. Are yours touching?

 

[Bratcher02]

A bolt that lifts heavy is caused by a case that’s long in headspace. A bolt that lifts normally but won’t travel rearward is caused by a case that’s fat in the web(base). Barring any other mechanical issues of course. How many firings on this brass? If you have a micrometer, take some comparative measurements between cases that extract and those that don’t, just above the extractor groove. You’ll probably find your answer there. Also, newer Remington’s have absolutely shit primary extraction. Literally the extractor cam surfaces don’t even touch one another due to improper bolt handle placement on the bolt body. Are yours touching?

I have around 5 firings in the Peterson brass just annealed before this last firing .
Both the lapua and Peterson measure .470 at the point you are talking about which that what the hornady book says it should

 

[Bratcher02]

I have around 5 firings in the Peterson brass just annealed before this last firing .
Both the lapua and Peterson measure .470 at the point you are talking about which that what the hornady book says it should

As far as the Remington extraction points they do not touch lol never noticed that till you you said it and I checked it out smh

 

[Subwrx300]

Is it possible some of the brass is over annealed? This would cause it to be very soft and potentially allow the web/middle of brass to stretch more than it should, possibly showing same symptoms you are seeing.

 

[Bratcher02]

As far as the Remington extraction points they do not touch lol never noticed that till you you said it and I checked it out smh

Well your right I looked on the lapua and they match the Peterson brass on the .470 which is max but has the scuf marks on them as well but still extract fine but fired another round that I loaded with my hunting loads and they was .469 at that point now I guess I have to bump the shoulder back farther to get the body to size more ? Which will suck cause then I’ll be stretching the case more with every firing instead of just bumping back the shoulder .002 right or am I missing something ?

 

[Bratcher02]

Well your right I looked on the lapua and they match the Peterson brass on the .470 which is max but has the scuf marks on them as well but still extract fine but fired another round that I loaded with my hunting loads and they was .469 at that point now I guess I have to bump the shoulder back farther to get the body to size more ? Which will suck cause then I’ll be stretching the case more with every firing instead of just bumping back the shoulder .002 right or am I missing something ?

It’s possible for sure I used tempilac 750 and just got it to where it melted but held the flame up on the neck but I’m sure anything is possible hope I didn’t screw them up ?‍

 

[Milo 2.5]

You've measured the base of fired brass, what does it measure coming out of your sizing die?

 

[Subwrx300]

Well your right I looked on the lapua and they match the Peterson brass on the .470 which is max but has the scuf marks on them as well but still extract fine but fired another round that I loaded with my hunting loads and they was .469 at that point now I guess I have to bump the shoulder back farther to get the body to size more ? Which will suck cause then I’ll be stretching the case more with every firing instead of just bumping back the shoulder .002 right or am I missing something ?

Going to .003 or .004 is fine; I had .308 Win Lapua that I was inadvertently bumping .007-.008 when I first started loading due to bad shell plate holder. It was still going strong at 12-13 loads. Most of my gas guns get bumped -003-004 and they go over 7-8 firings; haven't lost a case yet to anything other than loose primer pocket or malfunction/ejection damage but none to case head separation.

 

[Supersubes]

Don’t bump the shoulders more, that’s a mistake. Lapua is .004 fatter in the web than domestic brass(I’ve never played with Peterson .308). You can solve this by switching to domestic brass, or having the chamber altered(couple of avenues there). Would probably be good to have the bolt handle placement corrected so you can get some primary extraction while you’re at it.

 

[Bratcher02]

You've measured the base of fired brass, what does it measure coming out of your sizing die?

.469 to .469.5

 

[Milo 2.5]

.469 to .469.5

Ok, I was checking to see if your die was slightly out of spec, I think it is fine. If it was die, should show up on the 3rd firing, you are not getting a distinct click at the top of your bolt lift?

 

[Bratcher02]

Ok, I was checking to see if your die was slightly out of spec, I think it is fine. If it was die, should show up on the 3rd firing, you are not getting a distinct click at the top of your bolt lift?

I don’t know I’ll listen for on tomorrow and see but nothing threw a flag up to me till the bolt would not pull to the rear

 

[Milo 2.5]

I have a small base 243 die with the shoulder removed, get your brass in spec if you come to the conclusion that is it, I can mail it to use, give you another 4-5 firings until it is needed again.

 

[Supersubes]

Ok, I was checking to see if your die was slightly out of spec, I think it is fine. If it was die, should show up on the 3rd firing, you are not getting a distinct click at the top of your bolt lift?

He shouldn’t have a click because he has a non-functional extractor cam.

 

[Bratcher02]

I have a small base 243 die with the shoulder removed, get your brass in spec if you come to the conclusion that is it, I can mail it to use, give you another 4-5 firings until it is needed again.

I could buy a 308 body die to do the same couldn’t I thanks for the offer I would just rather have the tool Incase I have the issue again I’ll be ready lol

 

[Bratcher02]

Don’t bump the shoulders more, that’s a mistake. Lapua is .004 fatter in the web than domestic brass(I’ve never played with Peterson .308). You can solve this by switching to domestic brass, or having the chamber altered(couple of avenues there). Would probably be good to have the bolt handle placement corrected so you can get some primary extraction while you’re at it.

10-4 I’ll find someone to do the bolt Handel for me and yeah I have some other brass just hate that the Peterson won’t work after 4-5 firings when my lapua has about 6 on it already when I’ve heard they are on par with lapua I’m hoping I can work it out some how

 

[MarinePMI]

How long are your cases? Have you trimmed them?

 

[Supersubes]

10-4 I’ll find someone to do the bolt Handel for me and yeah I have some other brass just hate that the Peterson won’t work after 4-5 firings when my lapua has about 6 on it already when I’ve heard they are on par with lapua I’m hoping I can work it out some how

This is not the fault of the brass. It’s a chamber issue which is exacerbated by no primary extraction. I just pulled this .308 match reamer print off of Grizzly industrial. Note the measurement called out .2” above the case head is .4714”. This measurement is the last part of the case that’s supported by the chamber. The rest is hanging in air. This point is also where the structure of the case is going from a solid piece brass(except for the flash hole), to a very thick wall. The solid area expands radially during firing, and depending on pressures, can take a few firings before it stabilizes. It also doesn’t really get touched by your sizing die. There are a few other factors at play as well, but If your cases are sticking and coming out at .470, it would certainly seem like your chamber is tighter than this match chamber below. By the way, that radial expansion near the bottom of the case is usually around .001-.0015 or so. Having about .004-.005 clearance in this area is about right. Since virgin Lapua is .4690 at the base, you’re chamber should be .473 at a minimum.


So back to what I said earlier in the thread, fix the primary extraction, and while the shop has the gun, have them fix the chamber. The chamber can probably be done by hand. Don’t let Remington do this work. When you talk to them about primary extraction, they will go cross-eyed, and have no idea what you’re talking about.

I had LRI do a bolt handle on a new Remington (that also had zero primary extraction) because I’m not set up to do it myself yet. I was very happy with the quality and turnaround time.

 

[Milo 2.5]

This is not the fault of the brass. It’s a chamber issue which is exacerbated by no primary extraction. I just pulled this .308 match reamer print off of Grizzly industrial. Note the measurement called out .2” above the case head is .4714”. This measurement is the last part of the case that’s supported by the chamber. The rest is hanging in air. This point is also where the structure of the case is going from a solid piece brass(except for the flash hole), to a very thick wall. The solid area expands radially during firing, and depending on pressures, can take a few firings before it stabilizes. It also doesn’t really get touched by your sizing die. There are a few other factors at play as well, but if If your cases are sticking and coming out at .470, it would certainly seem like your chamber is tighter than this match chamber below.


So back to what I said earlier in the thread, fix the primary extraction, and while the shop has the gun, have them fix the chamber. The chamber can probably be done by hand. Don’t let Remington do this work. When you talk to them about primary extraction, they will go cross-eyed, and have no idea what you’re talking about.

I had LRI do a bolt handle on a new Remington (that also had zero primary extraction) because I’m not set up to do it myself yet. I was very happy with the quality and turnaround time.

Weren't the original reamers spec'd at .470" in that area? Is anyone sure Remington uses match reamers? If he enlarges his chamber, with his die getting brass back to the .469" range now, sizing will be a pain.
Here's a pic of Peterson 6 creed brass fired from an out of spec chamber, measured .4725" after firing, die took it down to .470", which is about the same amount he would now be sizing with a "fixed" chamber. The brass in pic shows a distinct line where the brass was rolled.

 

[Bratcher02]

How long are your cases? Have you trimmed them?

All are trimmed

 

[FLIGHT762]

If you ever decide to buy a Body die, I have had great luck with the Reddiing Small Base Body die. It sizes the case web a bit smaller than my RCBS S/B or Forster Match dies do.

It was the only die that sized the web enough to fit a very tight chambered SSG 69 with cases fired in other rifles.

 

[Bratcher02]

If you ever decide to buy a Body die, I have had great luck with the Reddiing Small Base Body die. It sizes the case web a bit smaller than my RCBS S/B or Forster Match dies do.

It was the only die that sized the web enough to fit a very tight chambered SSG 69 with cases fired in other rifles.

Ok thanks I just got back from the field and I sized on last night that was .469 just above the head and it came out fine marked that case last night and the rest was still a little tight but I did seat the bullets out farther and seemed to help a little bit do you think I might be using to tight of a bushing and the neck is sticking ? I did notice the ones that was sticking more seemed to have a little bit more girth in the neck than he one that didn’t I just figured it would swell to the chamber each time the only other bushing I have is a slightly larger bushing so I would think it would swell larger but I’m going to try it and see I guess lol this is driving me crazy lol thanks for all your help

 

[Sheldon N]

I'm thinking this is just an issue with primary extraction. I wouldn't do anything with changing sizing dies or redoing the chamber until you get the extraction fixed. The primary extraction cam needs to work even if you've got the right load and correct amount of sizing. Without primary extraction the only work-around would be shooting light loads with excessive sizing to prevent the brass from sticking in the chamber.

Good videos here explaining how this works....

 

[Supersubes]

Weren't the original reamers spec'd at .470" in that area? Is anyone sure Remington uses match reamers? If he enlarges his chamber, with his die getting brass back to the .469" range now, sizing will be a pain.
Here's a pic of Peterson 6 creed brass fired from an out of spec chamber, measured .4725" after firing, die took it down to .470", which is about the same amount he would now be sizing with a "fixed" chamber. The brass in pic shows a distinct line where the brass was rolled.
View attachment 6919903

Saami for .308 is .4714”. I don’t think Remington is capable of match anything LOL. I also wouldn’t expect any .308 chamber they make to be at or near minimums. I was also under the impression that they were hammer forging the chamber into the barrel in the same operation as the bore(no chamber reaming at all).


If he’s sticking cases in his chamber and coming out at .470, his chamber is small. Also, his die is only knocking .0005-.0001 off that. That’s not much.


I took a quick look through prints for my reamers.

6x47L( ptg) .4720
6XC (Tubb’s reamer, ptg) .4714
6CM saami(ptg) .4714
6cm custom (Manson .)4710
6cm (jgs) .4714
6.5x47 (ptg) .4720
6.5cm saami(ptg) .4714
30-06 saami(ptg) .4708


Your 6cm peterson case shouldn’t have done that. Taking .0025 out of the web isn’t that big a deal. Imagine a saami .308 chamber with domestic brass, which all seem to measure .466 or smaller(about double what you had there). Wonder how much that mark has to to with the chamfer on your die? At .4725, that chamber is indeed bigger than saami, but not that much bigger.

 

[Bratcher02]

I'm thinking this is just an issue with primary extraction. I wouldn't do anything with changing sizing dies or redoing the chamber until you get the extraction fixed. The primary extraction cam needs to work even if you've got the right load and correct amount of sizing. Without primary extraction the only work-around would be shooting light loads with excessive sizing to prevent the brass from sticking in the chamber.

Good videos here explaining how this works....

I’ll watch the video this evening and thank you but I have this same load in lapua brass and it runs like butter threw the gun ?

 

[Sheldon N]

I’ll watch the video this evening and thank you but I have this same load in lapua brass and it runs like butter threw the gun ?

There's a threshold where the brass is fully expanded after firing and sticks to the walls of the chamber. This is normal and it takes the primary extraction cam of the bolt to break it free so you can pull the bolt back. The full expansion will happen eventually for all brass after a number of firings. Heavier powder charges will make the brass expand more, and less sizing on the base of case will also make the brass more prone to stick in the chamber. However if you're getting 0.001 of sizing at the base of the case and are running a moderate load of 43.5 Varget behind a 168, you should not be having problems with extraction, if the primary extraction was fine.

You could work around the primary extraction problem by running low loads and by sizing the base of the case a lot more, so that it would never fully grip the chamber walls. Personally, I'd rather that the gun worked properly rather than try to mask the symptoms with a work-around.

 

[Bratcher02]

There's a threshold where the brass is fully expanded after firing and sticks to the walls of the chamber. This is normal and it takes the primary extraction cam of the bolt to break it free so you can pull the bolt back. The full expansion will happen eventually for all brass after a number of firings. Heavier powder charges will make the brass expand more, and less sizing on the base of case will also make the brass more prone to stick in the chamber. However if you're getting 0.001 of sizing at the base of the case and are running a moderate load of 43.5 Varget behind a 168, you should not be having problems with extraction, if the primary extraction was fine.

You could work around the primary extraction problem by running low loads and by sizing the base of the case a lot more, so that it would never fully grip the chamber walls. Personally, I'd rather that the gun worked properly rather than try to mask the symptoms with a work-around.

Yeah that makes since guess that why I’m just now having problems with it good to know I’ll try and find me a good gun smith to get this taken care of glad you pointed that out to me it looks like it’s almost 1/8” away form even touching that angled part of the reciever lol can’t believe I’ve not had problems before now

 

[Milo 2.5]

Your 6cm peterson case shouldn’t have done that. Taking .0025 out of the web isn’t that big a deal. Imagine a saami .308 chamber with domestic brass, which all seem to measure .466 or smaller(about double what you had there). Wonder how much that mark has to to with the chamfer on your die? At .4725, that chamber is indeed bigger than saami, but not that much bigger.

It was a friends redding die, and I suspect you are right, but you did not size these w/o a double pump and reworking lube in that area.

 

[Bratcher02]

I'm thinking this is just an issue with primary extraction. I wouldn't do anything with changing sizing dies or redoing the chamber until you get the extraction fixed. The primary extraction cam needs to work even if you've got the right load and correct amount of sizing. Without primary extraction the only work-around would be shooting light loads with excessive sizing to prevent the brass from sticking in the chamber.

Good videos here explaining how this works....

that first video is exactly what my rifle is doing thank you so much glad it’s not the load and bet my lapua stuff will be a issue next loading or they may be just enough better brass to help prevent it some but either way I bet that will fix it when I get it fixed cause the loads are not hot at all !