Bore guide myth?

[Good Boi]

Is the necessity of a bore guide a myth? Below is my logical argument:

Copper, nylon, bronze, and brass are softer than steel. This implies that copper, nylon, bronze, and brass cannot scratch or otherwise damage steel. Therefore, a nylon coated cleaning rod, copper fouling, bronze bristles, brushes with brass cores, and other bronze or brass pieces cannot damage the throat, crown, or any other parts of a steel barrel.

Otherwise, please tell me your logical argument as to why I should use a bore guide to prevent damage.

Thank you.

 

[64E]

Water is softer than rock.

 

[shoobe01]

Naw.

I've learned from this forum that questions posed like this are pointless. There are at least two serious avenues of attack that materials scientists and engineers know as mechanisms of damage, and of course there's plenty of documented evidence of worn barrels from poor cleaning practices (at scale: armies and stuff) but I have seen every one of those refuted by people who gut-instinct their beliefs.

 

[Terry Cross]

Is the necessity of a bore guide a myth? Below is my logical argument:
I should use a bore guide to prevent damage solvent and other shit from dripping into my trigger and mag area.

FIFY

/

 

[theLBC]

i think it isn't so much the material for the brush but the twisted core that can get bent (and steel sectional rods).
also keeps solvents out of places where it isn't needed.

 

[Good Boi]

64E definitely has a good point. However, solvents are designed to be pushed around in the barrel with patches and brushes. It's not the same as a roaring river carving stone over millions of years, the barrel would likely get shot out before I would think the forces and materials imparted on the barrel during cleaning would have a significant impact. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the burnt powder residue. The burnt powder residue is likely somewhat granular and may act as an erosive medium.

shoobe01, I do understand there's a consensus that not using a bore guide can lead to damage and I'm sure a lot smarter people than I are a part of forming that consensus. I'm not advising anyone to not use a bore guide and I DO think people should use one to potentially prevent damage. However, I don't understand how that damage actually occurs.

Terry Cross brings up what I see a bore guide obviously does.

theLBC, I use bronze brushes with twisted brass cores and nylon coated cleaning rods. I definitely believe using steel uncoated cleaning rods will cause erosion. I can't see aluminum core brushes causing damage but I still prefer brass.

 

[USK308]

For years, I did NOT use a bore guide and felt comfortable with the process of cleaning my weapons. Earlier this year, I bought a new rifle for hunting / long-range shooting (Sako S20 7RM). Because I wanted to be sure that I did not damage the barrel, I bought a bore guide & guide rod for cleaning & lubricating.

Again, not 100% necessary...however, using the bore guide with a guide rod has really helped me get my rifle clean more efficiently and with a level of comfort that the brush (nylon bristle) and metal components were not going to touch the barrel or action. Overkill? Perhaps, but in my opinion, it was a worthwhile expenditure.

 

[XikoPlavi]

You must be poor if you can’t afford bore guides. It’s just common sense

 

[Milf Dots]

FIFY

/

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

Terry, what are the top three bore guides? I just got a bunch of stuff from Dewey's, but I always like to pick the brains of masterminds. TYIA

 

[doubloon]

A bore guide is indispensable.

There is nothing else on the market that will provide as much protection from or as much alignment assistance for the brass aglet on a boresnake.

 

[TheOE800]

You must be poor if you can’t afford bore guides. It’s just common sense

It’s kind of ass to buy action-specific bore guides when you’ve got 3-4 calibers for it and the totality of the guides cost 1/3 the action.

Looking at you CDG…

 

[DocRDS]

Random guy on internet: here's my theory.

Top world shooters and equip builders: here's our experience.

I think I'll buy a bore guide.....

 

[msgriff]

Try one for yourself. Take a 12" piece of 1/2" PEX, drill a hole a couple inches from the end for a solvent port, and sleeve it inside a 8" piece of 3/4" PEX. Tilt the muzzle downhill. Doesn't cost anything if you know a plumber.

 

[64E]

64E definitely has a good point. However, solvents are designed to be pushed around in the barrel with patches and brushes. It's not the same as a roaring river carving stone over millions of years, the barrel would likely get shot out before I would think the forces and materials imparted on the barrel during cleaning would have a significant impact. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the burnt powder residue. The burnt powder residue is likely somewhat granular and may act as an erosive medium.

shoobe01, I do understand there's a consensus that not using a bore guide can lead to damage and I'm sure a lot smarter people than I are a part of forming that consensus. I'm not advising anyone to not use a bore guide and I DO think people should use one to potentially prevent damage. However, I don't understand how that damage actually occurs.

Terry Cross brings up what I see a bore guide obviously does.

theLBC, I use bronze brushes with twisted brass cores and nylon coated cleaning rods. I definitely believe using steel uncoated cleaning rods will cause erosion. I can't see aluminum core brushes causing damage but I still prefer brass.

If you think my comment was comparing solvent to water, I can’t help you.

 

[mosin46]

i think OP has a decent question. a question challenging conventional wisdom is usually worth considering at least. helps confirm best practices. i use bore guides,non ammonia cleaners,no abrasives and very rarely brush if ever. why? because those things have been shown to be the safest way to go. yea,having looked at thousands of mosins,mausers and other milsurps,you can easily see the damage caused by muzzle end steel rod cleaning. that's why the finns et al counterbored a lot. corrosive powders without proper neutralizing didn't help. nobody here does that,so a non issue.

 

[Mister Ridge]

I suppose another point to consider would be embeded grit on the rod causing damage to the bore. Think sandpaper.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Bore guides are necessary to rifles like condoms are necessary for hookers.

 

[Chris1972]

My primary purpose is to keep the shit out of my trigger.

 

[carbonbased]

I have a big pile of bore guides, most from Mike Lucus. Good stuff.

I sorta hate cleaning rods and patches, not bore guides.

But if you hate bore guides (or rods, or patches) there is something I do when I’m lazy. Which is a lot of the time.

Buy a Patchworm and some drinking straws that fit your bore. I like those newish VFG felt pellets for ease of use, but you can use patches too of course. The straw is to protect the crown as you pull the cord through the bore.

Cut the straw down to whatever length you want. I like around 4” so it’s easier to grab.


Technique stuff, boring
Put the pellet or patch on the Patchworm, start threading the Patchworm through the ejection port. Once the pellet/patch gets close to going in, soak it with cleaning fluid. Then, slip it into the ejection port and get it aligned into the chamber.

Moving to the bore, slide the straw over the bit of the Patchworm cord that’s sticking out of the barrel. To protect the crown, push the straw part way into the bore and hold it with one hand while pulling the Patchworm through the bore.

If your straws are too big in diameter, make a twisting/curling cut lengthwise over the straw’s whole length. This way you can sort of collapse down the straw’s diameter. The twisting cut limits the chance that the line will pop out of the straw and rub the crown.

And if you go the VFG felt button route, I think they are way cheaper elsewhere. The Patchworm site charges a lot for them (unless they’ve come down in price recently). I got mine off of some seller on eBay.

=====

I don’t know if I’m the first to make this straw technique up, but I’ve never seen it anywhere else. My gift to the lazy ones.

When traveling, way less cleaning stuff to carry, for sure.

P.S. you won’t get stuff in your trigger because you go through the ejection port. Bonus!

 

[Makinchips208]

You guys clean your rifles?? Shoot more, clean less.

 

[mosin46]

i have started with the plug the chamber and fill the bore thing. i like it. keeps solution in constant full contact with bore. need to rod/patch less. still working on best techniques to use-brands,dwell times etc. for the very many guides i own,i use possum hollow. good products,prices and service and a great guy to deal with. not so easy to get ahold of but very knowledgeable about all the tech stuff involved.

 

[Baron23]

i have started with the plug the chamber and fill the bore thing. i like it. keeps solution in constant full contact with bore. need to rod/patch less. still working on best techniques to use-brands,dwell times etc. for the very many guides i own,i use possum hollow. good products,prices and service and a great guy to deal with. not so easy to get ahold of but very knowledgeable about all the tech stuff involved.

I too have started plug the bore and fill...usually with BT Eliminator. I use the PVA Muzzle Jimmy or The Plug. I sort of prefer the Jimmy but when I don't want to pull the Area 419 Uni Adapter off of the gun then I have used the Plug successfully.

However, after doing this for a while I'm kind of the opinion that first I should take some BT Carbon Cleaner (or the Eliminator for that matter) and a brush and get the baked on carbon off/loose. Then fill and soak. Some of that the top layer of carbon just seems to need mechanical agitation so solvent can get underneath it and work on...well, more carbon and copper.

 

[B y r o n]

"Is the necessity of a bore guide a myth?"

I think your choice of "necessity" is wrong. Are bore guides necessary, no they are not but they are recommended. It is a best practice or recommendation.

In many endeavors there are recommendations or best practices. Take rebuilding an engine as an example, are torque wrenches necessary? There are backyard mechanics that have done it without one but I doubt you will find any professional shop doing it without one or more.

The information is out there, how you choose to use it is up to you.

 

[DocRDS]

OP: what's the hardest mineral in the word. Diamond

What's it made of ? Carbon

What's in your barrel: Carbon

Do you have diamonds in your barrel? No, but the Carbon bond is one of the strongest so Carbon particles can be extremely hard.

Is lead harder than steel? Nope. And yet with force lead will damage steel.

If diamond is the hardest material, how do we make jewelry? Don't kid yourself hard steel is no protection against damage.

 

[Ichi]

I have a big pile of bore guides, most from Mike Lucus. Good stuff.

I sorta hate cleaning rods and patches, not bore guides.

But if you hate bore guides (or rods, or patches) there is something I do when I’m lazy. Which is a lot of the time.

Buy a Patchworm and some drinking straws that fit your bore. I like those newish VFG felt pellets for ease of use, but you can use patches too of course. The straw is to protect the crown as you pull the cord through the bore.

Cut the straw down to whatever length you want. I like around 4” so it’s easier to grab.


Technique stuff, boring
Put the pellet or patch on the Patchworm, thread it in through the ejection port, soak the pellet/patch and then get it aligned into the chamber.

Moving to the bore, slide the straw over the bit of the Patchworm cord that’s sticking out of the barrel. To protect the crown, push the straw into the bore and hold it with one hand while pulling the Patchworm through the bore.

If your straws are too big in diameter, make a twisting/curling cut lengthwise over its whole length. This way you can sort of collapse down the straw’s diameter. The twisting cut limits the chance that the line will pop out of the straw and rub the crown.

And if you go the VFG felt button route, I think they are way cheaper elsewhere. The Patchworm site charges a lot for them (unless they’ve come down in price recently). I got mine off of some seller on eBay.

=====

I don’t know if I’m the first to make this straw technique up, but I’ve never seen it anywhere else. My gift to the lazy ones.

When traveling, way less cleaning stuff to carry, for sure.

P.S. you won’t get stuff in your trigger because you go through the ejection port. Bonus!

The Patchworm kits are great to take to the range or to places where you don't want to carry a cleaning rod.

 

[cas6969]

I should use a bore guide to prevent having the damn patch fall off on the way to the throat.

Honestly I only started using them a little over a year ago. I'd been aware of them for decades, just never had one. It was truly an "oh my God what the hell did you wait so long for?" moment.

 

[LuvDog]

Necessary? No

But I just started using them just to keep stuff out of my trigger and from getting on my grip.

 

[Good Boi]

What got me thinking about this is Erik Cortina's video on barrel break in

In short, he says it's a myth and totally unnecessary. This just opened up a rabbit hole in my brain because of of TiborasaurusRex's video on copper and powder fouling .

I wouldn't think laying layers of copper + powder fouling down in a brand new barrel could be better than cleaning some of that powder fouling out before laying more layers of copper down. Erik probably doesn't care because he shoots so much that he changes barrels quite frequently. For him it's likely more about just getting more rounds down range for practice and that powder fouling may be negligible. Should he remove it? Makes sense to me that he should. Does he? No. This is why I ask about the bore guide. If you're not using things like steel uncoated rods and whatnot are you actually protecting anything or is it just a feel good like Erik's take on barrel break in? Best point I've seen is from Mister Ridge that the bore guide minimizes the powder fouling's ability to act abrasively on the barrel while it's on the cleaning rod. Btw, I have some Lucas bore guides on order. It's always better to be safe than sorry. I still want to understand how the damage occurs though. A even more established standard that Erik doesn't do is clean his brass. I'm sure if anyone else were to suggest skipping this step during brass prep they'd call them crazy. He does use a Lucas bore guide though!