Night Vision Both eyes open night shooting?

[GreenMushroom]

Since getting our devices last fall we've been focused on learning to navigate and developing basic skills. With the midsummer lack of nighttime I've been playing around with shooting setups to try out in the fall. We have a nox18 and aimpoint pros to play with as well as lasers.

One idea I had that might be a fools errand is mounting the nox offset to the left on the rifle but still vertical so that I can shoulder the rifle and look through my 14 mounted on my left eye and nox on my rifle at the same time. I wear my 14/coti on my left eye and the idea is to detect something with the coti and be able to shoulder the rifle with everything in place and basically hand off whatever my coti detects off to my nox. Has anyone ever tried a "both eyes open" shooting set up like this?

I have a mount setup that seems to work fairly well but I won't be able to shoot with it for awhile. I doubt I'm the 1st one who's thought of this so I'm assume there's a reason I'm missing why no one runs things this way.

I have a Mod Armory J-arm coming (hopefully today) that I think i will switch out for my bridge when I'm going out specifically to shoot.

 

[nutation]

That sounds like it might be disorienting, like looking through very non-collimated binoculars. The image from each eye won't necessarily automatically line up like with Bindon aiming.

Slinging the rifle might also be uncomfortable with the Nox hanging off the left side.

 

[GreenMushroom]

This doesn't seem to be a problem for me but I know thermal/nv combos can be highly dependent on the individual. Most of the time I wear the nox on a neck lanyard and I often pop it up to my eye with my 14 in place on the other and walk along that way. Thats what got me thinking if that works with a lanyard why not on a rifle.

I had it set up with risers and it was useable but to get the view I wanted put my neck in an uncomfortable position. This is the setup that feels most comfortable. I'm going to try and get out tonight to try it out. My jarm didn't show today so I'll have to try it with the bridge.





This also puts it a little farther forward than the other setups. This fills more of your view with the picture and seems to lend itself more to fast acquisition. For rifle mount I think I'm also going to ditch the eyecup for a rear flip cap because it gives off quite a bit of light when not shouldered.

 

[nutation]

Please take the following as constructive criticism. That setup looks like a pain in the ass.

It's going to get hung up on stuff - branches, vines, your gear, the front of your shirt, the inside of your vehicle. I would not want to patrol with that.

Your rifle is very top heavy, and unbalanced. The forced chin weld won't help with this.

Your expensive nox is going to be constantly smacking into your expensive pvs-14 unless you're consciously dainty about shouldering your weapon, which you won't be if you're engaging a non-paper target at 2:30 in the morning.

The extreme height over bore could be a serious annoyance.

Suppose you manage to make that configuration work at night - what do you do when the sun rises? You can detach the nox, but the risers are still there, obscuring your field of view and getting caught on everything.

If you have a shot timer, try doing some ready-up drills - dry fire is sufficient, just go beep to beep. The time pressure will help expose clumsiness in your setup.

 

[Mbaysinger89]

Why not wear the 14 on your non scope eye, and mount as normal?

 

[Dvlray6]

I wear a Skeet IRx on my left eye and my PVS 14 on my right with a KVC bridge while hunting. I can easily shoot with the IR laser on the rifle OR with the red dot passively this way. I do leave both eyes open when moving and shooting.

I think the thermal setup on the rifle you have shown is pretty clumsy and wouldn’t be my choice for doing this.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Please take the following as constructive criticism. That setup looks like a pain in the ass.

It's going to get hung up on stuff - branches, vines, your gear, the front of your shirt, the inside of your vehicle. I would not want to patrol with that.

Your rifle is very top heavy, and unbalanced. The forced chin weld won't help with this.

Your expensive nox is going to be constantly smacking your into your expensive pvs-14 unless you're consciously dainty about shouldering your weapon, which you won't be if you're engaging a non-paper target at 2:30 in the morning.

The extreme height over bore could be a serious annoyance.

Suppose you manage to make that configuration work at night - what do you do when the sun rises? You can detach the nox, but the risers are still there, obscuring your field of view and getting caught on everything.

If you have a shot timer, try doing some ready-up drills - dry fire is sufficient, just go beep to beep. The time pressure will help expose clumsiness in your setup.

No worries I posted it to be criticized. Its an idea I'm playing with. I had it out for a 7-8 mile hike tonight and it went pretty well.

It doesn't really hang up the way it looks like it would in the picture. I have it on a vtac sling barrel down on my right side. It rides no differently than my other optics. I do need a flip cap for the back. The angle shines the screen up and flashes out my 14.

The nox is pretty light and I'd say balance is no worse than my 1-6 accupoint in a 1.5 mount.

It doesn't contact my 14 but does contact the bridge on the right side . I have a jarm on the way to see if that will clear. Like you said when I'm not being a spaz its not a big deal but in a o shit there's a bear 10 feet away moment I'm probably gonna be a spaz so it's a concern.


The height over bore is one of my major concerns. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how big of a deal it is. I'm assuming the further away your shooting the bigger difference it makes?

It's pretty much a dedicated night time rifle. I'll probably get an arisaka 35° tall mount for a mini dot to play around with. My thought is it might work as a stand alone when I have the nox on a lanyard for passive. If it sucks for that I can use it on my rec.

I don't own a shot timer and probably won't do much night shooting till the fall. When I have the time I'll put this and a bunch of other setups through their paces. The nox is very fast on a half inch riser with my bridge flipped up. That is likely the configuration I'll end up with but I'm playing with different things just to see what's possible.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I wear a Skeet IRx on my left eye and my PVS 14 on my right with a KVC bridge while hunting. I can easily shoot with the IR laser on the rifle OR with the red dot passively this way. I do leave both eyes open when moving and shooting.

I think the thermal setup on the rifle you have shown is pretty clumsy and wouldn’t be my choice for doing this.

Your configuration is one I'll be trying also. I run a coti so a middle ground is to use 14/coti for the laser and have the nox on the rifle and flip my nods up to use it. One of the issues is if you want the nox to remain weapon mountable its a bit on the heavy side. I wear it on my bridge sometimes but wouldn't want to all night long. At some point I'll strip it down and take my coti off and see how I like it. I think its 13oz without weapon mount, extension, and battery. I think almost 20 with all that plus 4-5 for the coti. Just a configuration i haven't got around to trying yet.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Why not wear the 14 on your non scope eye, and mount as normal?

The 14 is on my left (non scope) eye.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I wear a Skeet IRx on my left eye and my PVS 14 on my right with a KVC bridge while hunting. I can easily shoot with the IR laser on the rifle OR with the red dot passively this way. I do leave both eyes open when moving and shooting.

I think the thermal setup on the rifle you have shown is pretty clumsy and wouldn’t be my choice for doing this.

I have the week off so I have more time to "play guns" as my wife puts it than usual. I've been mulling over your setup and I think its the next I will try.

To backtrack a bit we aren't trying to achieve some tactical shtf setup or even for hunting. These setups are our reaction to encountering potentially unfriendly wildlife at very close ranges in heavy brush.

I had incorrectly assumed lasers would fill this roll but have found their usefulness to be inconsistent in thick vegetation. I useful tool for sure but not something to be relied on.

I have found the nox to be by far the most reliable of our devices for delivering targeting information in these conditions. I'm perhaps a little tunnel visioned on the nox being rifle mounted. I had pictured the flow of information being 14/coti > nox for shooting where as I'm understanding yours would be nox/skeet > 14/red dot for shooting.

The real fun one is going to be figuring out a setup for my wife. She only uses her right eye due to vision issues. She unfortunately finds the coti to be "stupid" which further complicates things.

 

[Capitol5868]

View attachment 7657616


Why do I feel this thread just jumped the shark?

 

[GreenMushroom]

I give up why?

 

[jeffl838]

There's nothing wrong with risers. I mount a .5'' under my reap. I would be more concerned about the horizontal offset from the bore, but it might not matter depending on how you zeroed it, especially at close range.

I recommend just buying a 1/2'' or 5/8th riser from adm or whatever and removing the double offset rig you have going on. Mount your nox one notch further than optimal and just deal with a little scope shadow when shooting normally (or click your buttstock a few notches in when shooting through thermal).

Mounting it more forward will give you space to aim through an offset red dot with your 14 if you mount your 14 on your shooting eye. I recommend that you mount an RMR with a 35 degree 1.93 arisaka mount forward of your thermal.

If you want to mount your 14 on your non-shooting eye, a half inch riser should be generous enough to allow you to aim through your thermal with your unaided shooting eye.

I wouldn't aim through the red dot with an unaided eye while my nonshooting eye is under nvg with 14's without testing via live firing first, because there might be some collimation issues. It probably wouldn't cause you to miss a bear, but you'd definitely miss a snake.

Re: external ballistics... Shooting with your rifle through a thermal optic is about knowing your zero and your holds... much like with anything else. I'd zero at 100 with your nox personally because it sounds like you're not worried about anything past 200, and 100 makes everything a hold over with no hold under concerns.

Regarding hold overs at close quarters: with a red dot equipped optic.... press your muzzle into a fine point (ie a light switch). Look through your red dot and note where your red dot is aimed. It would have required that you aim there to hit the light switch. Additionally, your bullet near the muzzle travels in a near straight line. If you zero at 50m, you'll have to hold over about an inch for a 25m shot. General rule of thumb for close quarters marksmanship for an AR is to aim at the top of the thing you're trying to hit. You'll have to aim over it if it's really small.

 

[GreenMushroom]

There's nothing wrong with risers. I mount a .5'' under my reap. I would be more concerned about the horizontal offset from the bore, but it might not matter depending on how you zeroed it, especially at close range.

I recommend just buying a 1/2'' or 5/8th riser from adm or whatever and removing the double offset rig you have going on. Mount your nox one notch further than optimal and just deal with a little scope shadow when shooting normally (or click your buttstock a few notches in when shooting through thermal).

Mounting it more forward will give you space to aim through an offset red dot with your 14 if you mount your 14 on your shooting eye. I recommend that you mount an RMR with a 35 degree 1.93 arisaka mount forward of your thermal.

If you want to mount your 14 on your non-shooting eye, a half inch riser should be generous enough to allow you to aim through your thermal with your unaided shooting eye.

I wouldn't aim through the red dot with an unaided eye while my nonshooting eye is under nvg with 14's without testing via live firing first, because there might be some collimation issues. It probably wouldn't cause you to miss a bear, but you'd definitely miss a snake.

Re: external ballistics... Shooting with your rifle through a thermal optic is about knowing your zero and your holds... much like with anything else. I'd zero at 100 with your nox personally because it sounds like you're not worried about anything past 200, and 100 makes everything a hold over with no hold under concerns.

Regarding hold overs at close quarters: with a red dot equipped optic.... press your muzzle into a fine point (ie a light switch). Look through your red dot and note where your red dot is aimed. It would have required that you aim there to hit the light switch. Additionally, your bullet near the muzzle travels in a near straight line. If you zero at 50m, you'll have to hold over about an inch for a 25m shot. General rule of thumb for close quarters marksmanship for an AR is to aim at the top of the thing you're trying to hit. You'll have to aim over it if it's really small.

Thanks. Any real world scenario would be at very close range but a versatile zero would be nice for shooting steel and target practice. I've been trying to work my head around the offset dot placement since I don't have that mount yet. With the thermal on the rifle and 14 on your shooting eye do you bring your 14 up and over the thermal as you tilt the rifle or hold your head back far enough that interference between the 2 isn't an issue.

As far as the risers for the thermal go I have a whole pile of cheap yhm risers I bought for mocking up different positions. I'm trying all sorts of weird setups as well as more conventional ones. A half inch cantilever riser reversed so the thermal is in the charging handle area seems nice for shooting with my eye in the cup with my bridge flipped up. The whacky setups are an attempt to look through the nox on the rifle and my 14 on my left eye at the same time. I've had the above set out once now and it does work....kind..sorta...

Riser pile.....not shown is a woa 1/2 service rifle rise that has an .75 offset to the left. It didn't have any practical use for mounting the thermal but I tried it briefly with an aimpoint pro and I liked it for that for passive aiming.

 

[jeffl838]

You cant the rifle so that your offset optic is now in line to being perpendicular with gravity and therefore a rifle optic mounted sufficiently forward will be out of the way

To me your riser height and how far back your thermal is, it does not look conducive to being fast/accurate for close marksmanship, but comfortable observation is more important if you scan less than you shoot

 

[GreenMushroom]

You cant the rifle so that your offset optic is now in line to being perpendicular with gravity and therefore a rifle optic mounted sufficiently forward will be out of the way

To me your riser height and how far back your thermal is, it does not look conducive to being fast/accurate for close marksmanship, but comfortable observation is more important if you scan less than you shoot

Comfortable scanning is a priority and more so quick and easy shouldering and unshouldering of the rifle. I normally just have my 14/coti on my helmet. As I'm walking along and I get a blip on my coti I want to be able to quickly shoulder my rifle to have a look and lower it again to continue moving without having to flip my bridge up or swivel my 14. This scenario happens dozens of times a night so having it be hassle free is kind of a big deal to me.

The more I've thought about it the guy aboves setup with nox on non shooting eye and red dot on the rifle short circuits this whole process. I'm not going to have much time to try things out till the fall so at this point I'm compiling different setups to try out. We have aimpoint pros right now but I'm assuming something like an eotech would be better if a dot is going to be my primary shooting method

I'd planned to use a laser as my primary and have the nox on a lanyard most of the time. The 2 problems with this were the unreliability of lasers in the brush and that once I put 2 hands on my rifle my best detection device was hanging useless around my neck. We go on long hikes so for me a lot of this is about finding a balance between comfort and practically.

 

[jeffl838]

Aimpoints are completely fine. It works better if you have a good illuminator on your gun. If you're gonna be just using the nox to scan with and won't depend on it for shooting, i'd head mount it. Lasers usually hug the bore so it's still good to activate it to understand if something hard is in the way of your trajectory.

 

[GreenMushroom]

So my j-arm finally came in. The good is with the nox moved forward a bit everything clears and you have a nice heads up view through both devices. The bad is one of the buckles on my helmet is right where my side of my jaw weld is. Once it gets dark I'll try it out in the yard. Obviously not a recipe for precision long range shooting. I'm knocking around the idea of having a comfort/convenience setup for hiking
and a more conventional setup for dedicated shooting.

And for the range officers magazine is out and bolt locked back.

 

[Namekagon]

So my j-arm finally came in. The good is with the nox moved forward a bit everything clears and you have a nice heads up view through both devices. The bad is one of the buckles on my helmet is right where my side of my jaw weld is. Once it gets dark I'll try it out in the yard. Obviously not a recipe for precision long range shooting. I'm knocking around the idea of having a comfort/convenience setup for hiking
and a more conventional setup for dedicated shooting.

And for the range officers magazine is out and bolt locked back.

View attachment 7659733

Interested to see how this works out for you. I bought a 14 hoping that I’d be able to still look through my dedicated thermal scope with right eye with the 14 over left eye. Not to look through simultaneously, but so I could switch back and forth quickly to help with PID. However, I’ve found that impossible because the 14 completely interferes with the thermal when I put my head on the gun. I use rhno II with J arm. I thought about trying a bridge mount that allowed the 14 to swing out instead of up, but I’m not sure that would even work because it would depend on how big the dovetail mount on a rhno 2 is. Unless I switch to a totally different mount.

Did you ever try this with a bridge that swings out? I really don't want to do a $300 experiment to find out that doesn't work.

 

[TheGerman]

Only plebs wear the PVS14 over their dominant eye. It's usually an indicator to me that you have no fucking idea as to whats going on.

This works the same as if you have 1 PVS14 alone, or have a bridge with a thermal.

- The thermal stays stowed up until you need it. Don't try and ghetto fusion things. It's retarded.

- Thermals are for security halts, secondary static observation and to clear ahead/behind you before moving over terrain to ensure you didn't miss some guy sitting behind that bush you're about to walk past. We'd basically keep PAS23's in our pockets for this.

- Mount the PVS14 over non dominant eye and then angle it to where you're looking through the 'bottom' 80% of it. This allows you to look under it by just tilting your head up.

- Same shooting stance/square body position as during the day. Learn to bring the gun up exactly as you would during the day to aim; stop this 'modified nightvision' stance I keep seeing. Why learn 2 different things?

- RDS, PEQ and white light on the gun. Present weapon just like daytime (see above) and keep both eyes open, focusing obviously on the target with the NV eye. However, if you did the above correctly, you will be looking at the target with the RDS (or very close) as well.

Why does this matter?

When the light is off, use the laser, aim, fire. When all of a sudden the light turns on or you need white light, you basically switch your focus to the RDS eye and fire. No fucking around moving things, readjusting, etc.

Light goes back off/no need for white light, move, and back to the NV eye.

And the answer to absolutely shooting anything, at anytime, is yes, both of your eyes should be open.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Interested to see how this works out for you. I bought a 14 hoping that I’d be able to still look through my dedicated thermal scope with right eye with the 14 over left eye. Not to look through simultaneously, but so I could switch back and forth quickly to help with PID. However, I’ve found that impossible because the 14 completely interferes with the thermal when I put my head on the gun. I use rhno II with J arm. I thought about trying a bridge mount that allowed the 14 to swing out instead of up, but I’m not sure that would even work because it would depend on how big the dovetail mount on a rhno 2 is. Unless I switch to a totally different mount.

Did you ever try this with a bridge that swings out? I really don't want to do a $300 experiment to find out that doesn't work.

I've tried with a bridge also and its not great either. Its something I'm trying for a very particular set of circumstances with a healthy dose of why not so I definitely wouldn't throw $ at it. Everything I've used so far has alternative uses so not a big deal. That's kind of what I'm up against now. The setup works ok but is not comfortable with my helmet and I don't think the idea has enough merit to mess with my helmet or buy a different one. I'm going to try it out a few times because again why not but my feeling at this point is its probably a dead end.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Only plebs wear the PVS14 over their dominant eye. It's usually an indicator to me that you have no fucking idea as to whats going on.

This works the same as if you have 1 PVS14 alone, or have a bridge with a thermal.

- The thermal stays stowed up until you need it. Don't try and ghetto fusion things. It's retarded.

- Thermals are for security halts, secondary static observation and to clear ahead/behind you before moving over terrain to ensure you didn't miss some guy sitting behind that bush you're about to walk past. We'd basically keep PAS23's in our pockets for this.

- Mount the PVS14 over non dominant eye and then angle it to where you're looking through the 'bottom' 80% of it. This allows you to look under it by just tilting your head up.

- Same shooting stance/square body position as during the day. Learn to bring the gun up exactly as you would during the day to aim; stop this 'modified nightvision' stance I keep seeing. Why learn 2 different things?

- RDS, PEQ and white light on the gun. Present weapon just like daytime (see above) and keep both eyes open, focusing obviously on the target with the NV eye. However, if you did the above correctly, you will be looking at the target with the RDS (or very close) as well.

Why does this matter?

When the light is off, use the laser, aim, fire. When all of a sudden the light turns on or you need white light, you basically switch your focus to the RDS eye and fire. No fucking around moving things, readjusting, etc.

Light goes back off/no need for white light, move, and back to the NV eye.

And the answer to absolutely shooting anything, at anytime, is yes, both of your eyes should be open.

Your opinions are invalid until you return to the cannibalism thread and lay the smack down as you promised.

 

[TheGerman]

Your opinions are invalid until you return to the cannibalism thread and lay the smack down as you promised.

/sad panda

 

[GreenMushroom]

/sad panda

But seriously I'm not a soldier and not even a hunter so a fair amount of what you guys say goes over my head but I appreciate the critique. I decided before my devices even began to arive to wear my pvs14/coti on my left (non shooting eye) thus leaving my right eye to use thermal, red dot, white light etc. It just seemed to make sense. Pretty much everyone has told me this is the incorrect way to do it.

I run an aimpoint and laser on my carbine. My intention had been to run the laser as my primary aiming device
and aimpoint/white light as a back up. I've been disappointed with the performance of lasers in the heavy brush so am knocking around other ideas for a primary.

The aimpoint/white light is something I run because I am already familiar with using it and could revert to if things were going badly. I considered it a beginners crutch that I would switch out as I became familiar with my devices but you are experienced and if I'm understanding correctly you still use that as one one of your primary aiming methods?

This is the setup I run unless I'm loaning out a device.

For moving



For stationary scanning . I just leave the lanyard attached while its snapped into my bridge.



I grew up shooting fud guns and shoot across my body. I've tried the squared up method that a lot of people use and have found when shooting quickly or under stress I revert to cross body so have decided to just stick with that in most circumstances.

This was just a quick pose but gives a basic idea of my stance. Rifle is set up that way whether day or night.



Typical terrain where we live. This often presents a wall of glare under ir light. The softer beam of the surefire helps but its still an issue. When in amongst the brush the laser is often deflected off the foliage within a few feet. The coti is also not usually capable of detection very far into the brush. The nox is my only device that I've found effective for burning through the brush hence my thoughts of on repurposing it from detection to aiming.

And I agree 100% on wanting whatever setup I end up with to be ready to go with no swiveling devices or flipping up my bridge. My purposes are not for defense against people but rather unfriendly critters at very short ranges. Whatever I settle on must be on tap with no fucking around necessary.

 

[TheGerman]

But seriously I'm not a soldier and not even a hunter so a fair amount of what you guys say goes over my head but I appreciate the critique. I decided before my devices even began to arive to wear my pvs14/coti on my left (non shooting eye) thus leaving my right eye to use thermal, red dot, white light etc. It just seemed to make sense. Pretty much everyone has told me this is the incorrect way to do it.

Yeah stop listening to whoever is telling you that.

I run an aimpoint and laser on my carbine. My intention had been to run the laser as my primary aiming device
and aimpoint/white light as a back up. I've been disappointed with the performance of lasers in the heavy brush so am knocking around other ideas for a primary.

The aimpoint/white light is something I run because I am already familiar with using it and could revert to if things were going badly. I considered it a beginners crutch that I would switch out as I became familiar with my devices but you are experienced and if I'm understanding correctly you still use that as one one of your primary aiming methods?

This is the setup I run unless I'm loaning out a device.

For moving

View attachment 7659897

For stationary scanning . I just leave the lanyard attached while its snapped into my bridge.

You can probably just keep it in your pocket, pull it out to scan and put it away. Having it on the mount really doesn't give you an added benefit. I used to keep a PAS 23 in my cargo pocket.

View attachment 7659898

I grew up shooting fud guns and shoot across my body. I've tried the squared up method that a lot of people use and have found when shooting quickly or under stress I revert to cross body so have decided to just stick with that in most circumstances.

This was just a quick pose but gives a basic idea of my stance. Rifle is set up that way whether day or night.

View attachment 7659900

Typical terrain where we live. This often presents a wall of glare under ir light. The softer beam of the surefire helps but its still an issue. When in amongst the brush the laser is often deflected off the foliage within a few feet. The coti is also not usually capable of detection very far into the brush. The nox is my only device that I've found effective for burning through the brush hence my thoughts of on repurposing it from detection to aiming.

View attachment 7659901View attachment 7659902

And I agree 100% on wanting whatever setup I end up with to be ready to go with no swiveling devices or flipping up my bridge. My purposes are not for defense against people but rather unfriendly critters at very short ranges. Whatever I settle on must be on tap with no fucking around necessary.

Wouldn't hurt to practice in a one size fits all scenario. Don't look at it as in, I'm hunting animals, not people. Why?

Your stance is something akin to the older chicken wing/side stance that used to be taught. It's evolved away from that for a few reasons. First, if properly aiming/holding the rifle, you'll find the sweet spot for next to no recoil on a shot is with the stock fairly high up. My stock has basically the bottom 1/2 of it on my body.

Secondly, shooting with NV, you need to focus on head straight up and facing forward. Everyone wants to tilt their head. That's wrong and not repeatable. It becomes a huge issue if trying to passively aim.

Third, if you ever wore a plate, you'd see instantly how that stance just wont work for about 10 reasons.

Also, you want to have to 'position' yourself as little as possible from a patrol walk; meaning you're walking with the rifle on a sling at a low ready/carrying the rifle and observing. Contact LEFT! What do you do? Fuck around for 5 seconds trying to get into your stance? It's why I can't believe the shit I see about 'get into a fighting stance' you see on youtube. I'm like..how fucking long does it take to assume THAT?

My stance is basically you caught me in a stride. Left foot forward, my head a bit on/infront of the foot, standing straight up, right foot toe is basically across from the heel area of my left foot. Weight slightly forward onto my left leg. Head up, head and torso straight. Carbine canted inboard a little so I can see the RDS yet not crane/tilt my head.

Just practice it and it'll come, but you wont instantly undo it.

Look at the guy in the front, the one in the middle is ok, the one on the far right has somewhat of your stance. You can just see the difference in them and why.

 

[jeffl838]

It really doesn't matter, and there's reason to go back and forth which is why things like the invg and new noisefighter x14 are neat to me. Sometimes after 5 hours of doing all the work, it's relieving to switch eyes.

If you want to aim with your red dot without a white light you need to live fire it to make sure the stacked amounts of errors don't cause a significant poi shift at the range you're interested in. I think pvs-14's mil spec are allowed like 5 degrees of collimation error which is 300 minutes. Are you ok with an up to 300 minute poi shift? And that's if your 14 is even within mil spec for that, it might be worse. If you blast white light, you'll be fine. The non-dominant i2 + aiming through a red dot technique works well with white light, but it doesn't sound like you want to blast white light.

If you want to aim with your red dot through i2 without illumination you'll need a dot with clearer glass, you might want to blast ir illumination, and you'll need your 14 over your dominant eye.

I'm going to disagree with the idea that body position is something that you should put too much thought into. Not to say that some coaching doesn't help. Your body will adapt to the way you shoot your guns. If you want to take very accurate offhand shots standing, you'll learn to shoot in something that resembles an NRA offhand position. If you're dumping mags into closer/bigger targets while static you'll be shooting in something more like a forward lunge. If you're just doing quick 2-3 round strings, you'll be somewhere in the middle. What's most important is learning to react quickly to visual input, and to pull the trigger without moving the gun when your sights are in the right place (notice how body position, breathing, etc aren't an explicit part of that statement). tl;dr if you wanna mag dump at .12 splits, you gotta do some mag dumps. If you wanna shoot 2 minute groups standing, you'll learn the position as you practice

 

[jeffl838]

This is what dynamic recoil management with acceptable accuracy looks like with a rifle/carbine. They're all slightly different based on the position they're moving in or out of with some common elements. If you have a tall red dot mount, it should look really similar under nvg.

 

[stefan73]

Yeah stop listening to whoever is telling you that.


You can probably just keep it in your pocket, pull it out to scan and put it away. Having it on the mount really doesn't give you an added benefit. I used to keep a PAS 23 in my cargo pocket.



Wouldn't hurt to practice in a one size fits all scenario. Don't look at it as in, I'm hunting animals, not people. Why?

Your stance is something akin to the older chicken wing/side stance that used to be taught. It's evolved away from that for a few reasons. First, if properly aiming/holding the rifle, you'll find the sweet spot for next to no recoil on a shot is with the stock fairly high up. My stock has basically the bottom 1/2 of it on my body.

Secondly, shooting with NV, you need to focus on head straight up and facing forward. Everyone wants to tilt their head. That's wrong and not repeatable. It becomes a huge issue if trying to passively aim.

Third, if you ever wore a plate, you'd see instantly how that stance just wont work for about 10 reasons.

Also, you want to have to 'position' yourself as little as possible from a patrol walk; meaning you're walking with the rifle on a sling at a low ready/carrying the rifle and observing. Contact LEFT! What do you do? Fuck around for 5 seconds trying to get into your stance? It's why I can't believe the shit I see about 'get into a fighting stance' you see on youtube. I'm like..how fucking long does it take to assume THAT?

My stance is basically you caught me in a stride. Left foot forward, my head a bit on/infront of the foot, standing straight up, right foot toe is basically across from the heel area of my left foot. Weight slightly forward onto my left leg. Head up, head and torso straight. Carbine canted inboard a little so I can see the RDS yet not crane/tilt my head.

Just practice it and it'll come, but you wont instantly undo it.

Look at the guy in the front, the one in the middle is ok, the one on the far right has somewhat of your stance. You can just see the difference in them and why.

View attachment 7659905

How dare you MOCK the Chickenwing

 

[stefan73]

And, contact left, easy!

 

[stefan73]

My favorite and the best technique ever,

 

[GreenMushroom]

I was taught to shoot by my dad who was in the army in the 70s. Thats the way he shot so thats the way I shot or I got slapped in the back of the head

 

[GreenMushroom]

Thanks for all the input. To address the issue of why the focus on animals we've had our devices since the fall and have been focused on fundamentals of movement and learning to use our devices. Living pretty far north we are on hiatus for the summer until the night comes back in the fall. I hadn't planned to introduce weapons into the mix until then so this amounts to skipping ahead.

I'd only carried a pistol with ir laser until recently. We've encountered bear and elk but it was watching a cougar do its thing thankfully at a safe distance that convinced me that something more was needed training or no training. I don't know how much good it would do as I figure cougars are like bullets in that you'd never see/hear the one that gets you but it makes me feel better to be able to do more than hurl insults.

Long story short I want to have a well rounded skill set but the animal concern is a right now sort of thing so I've had to improvise.

And there's a ton of useful information here for me to digest but the reason for whacky setup that started this thread hasn't been addressed. How do you shoot through the brush without having the nox on the rifle and if the nox is on the rifle how do you shoulder it and fire without flipping your bridge up and loosing situational awareness. That wasn't something I was trying because I thought it looked cool but rather a reaction to trial and error in specific circumstances.

 

[Namekagon]

It really doesn't matter, and there's reason to go back and forth which is why things like the invg and new noisefighter x14 are neat to me. Sometimes after 5 hours of doing all the work, it's relieving to switch eyes.

If you want to aim with your red dot without a white light you need to live fire it to make sure the stacked amounts of errors don't cause a significant poi shift at the range you're interested in. I think pvs-14's mil spec are allowed like 5 degrees of collimation error which is 300 minutes. Are you ok with an up to 300 minute poi shift? And that's if your 14 is even within mil spec for that, it might be worse. If you blast white light, you'll be fine. The non-dominant i2 + aiming through a red dot technique works well with white light, but it doesn't sound like you want to blast white light.

If you want to aim with your red dot through i2 without illumination you'll need a dot with clearer glass, you might want to blast ir illumination, and you'll need your 14 over your dominant eye.

I'm going to disagree with the idea that body position is something that you should put too much thought into. Not to say that some coaching doesn't help. Your body will adapt to the way you shoot your guns. If you want to take very accurate offhand shots standing, you'll learn to shoot in something that resembles an NRA offhand position. If you're dumping mags into closer/bigger targets while static you'll be shooting in something more like a forward lunge. If you're just doing quick 2-3 round strings, you'll be somewhere in the middle. What's most important is learning to react quickly to visual input, and to pull the trigger without moving the gun when your sights are in the right place (notice how body position, breathing, etc aren't an explicit part of that statement). tl;dr if you wanna mag dump at .12 splits, you gotta do some mag dumps. If you wanna shoot 2 minute groups standing, you'll learn the position as you practice

I've noticed that with a 14 on my left eye, in moonlight that allows my right eye to also see objects, I see double vision. It doesn't line up with the 14 image. I assumed it was a slight magnification that is the problem. But from your post it sounds like its colimation?

 

[GreenMushroom]

It really doesn't matter, and there's reason to go back and forth which is why things like the invg and new noisefighter x14 are neat to me. Sometimes after 5 hours of doing all the work, it's relieving to switch eyes.

If you want to aim with your red dot without a white light you need to live fire it to make sure the stacked amounts of errors don't cause a significant poi shift at the range you're interested in. I think pvs-14's mil spec are allowed like 5 degrees of collimation error which is 300 minutes. Are you ok with an up to 300 minute poi shift? And that's if your 14 is even within mil spec for that, it might be worse. If you blast white light, you'll be fine. The non-dominant i2 + aiming through a red dot technique works well with white light, but it doesn't sound like you want to blast white light.

If you want to aim with your red dot through i2 without illumination you'll need a dot with clearer glass, you might want to blast ir illumination, and you'll need your 14 over your dominant eye.

I'm going to disagree with the idea that body position is something that you should put too much thought into. Not to say that some coaching doesn't help. Your body will adapt to the way you shoot your guns. If you want to take very accurate offhand shots standing, you'll learn to shoot in something that resembles an NRA offhand position. If you're dumping mags into closer/bigger targets while static you'll be shooting in something more like a forward lunge. If you're just doing quick 2-3 round strings, you'll be somewhere in the middle. What's most important is learning to react quickly to visual input, and to pull the trigger without moving the gun when your sights are in the right place (notice how body position, breathing, etc aren't an explicit part of that statement). tl;dr if you wanna mag dump at .12 splits, you gotta do some mag dumps. If you wanna shoot 2 minute groups standing, you'll learn the position as you practice

I'm going to try all of the above. White light/red dot is something I'm already competent with so no learning curve. We don't normally flash white or ir around except to complete a specific task but when your actually going to shoot something what does it matter at that point. Get your shots off turn off the light and move. I'd had it stuck in my head to always use fancy devices but for some things simple and reliable is the way to go.

I'm going to stick with the jarm for a while and it's easy to swivel over to my shooting eye so its not an either or thing and I'll try passive as well and different combos of light source and laser. I've done very little night shooting and at this point am try to get everything together for the fall when I have time to train.

As far as the shooting stance idk. I shot many 1000s of rounds that way as a kid and it will take a lot of practice to overcome. I'm fairly fast with it as is so other than wearing armor i don't see it as a big deal. I have so many other things I need to gain basic skills in that modifying something I'm already competent at is pretty far down the list.

 

[GreenMushroom]

After a little more trial and error I have another question for the experts. Not sure how to phrase this but here it goes. When shooting through vegetation with a laser is it practical to use it as an aiming point even if it doesn't make it all the way to the target?

I'd mentioned above that I was really happy with the illuminater on my X400irc. It has a soft but very crisp light that seems to see through the brush and doesn't cause as much glare as our other ir lights. Its the only device other than the nox that is much good for seeing through the jungle.

Let's say if you have illuminater and laser on and can see a target farther back in the vegetation but the laser stops at the the 1st leaf it hits. Is it viable to sight down it from there? Essentially using it as a red dot that's floating out there?

And I'm sure some of my questions seem odd to some but our local terrain and thick brush are proving to be the dominant factor in whether something works or not.

 

[Glassaholic]

After a little more trial and error I have another question for the experts. Not sure how to phrase this but here it goes. When shooting through vegetation with a laser is it practical to use it as an aiming point even if it doesn't make it all the way to the target?

I'd mentioned above that I was really happy with the illuminater on my X400irc. It has a soft but very crisp light that seems to see through the brush and doesn't cause as much glare as our other ir lights. Its the only device other than the nox that is much good for seeing through the jungle.

Let's say if you have illuminater and laser on and can see a target farther back in the vegetation but the laser stops at the the 1st leaf it hits. Is it viable to sight down it from there? Essentially using it as a red dot that's floating out there?

And I'm sure some of my questions seem odd to some but our local terrain and thick brush are proving to be the dominant factor in whether something works or not.

@wigwamitus

I am no expert, but have some thoughts from what I’ve gleaned from wig. When using the laser and you hit vegetation that causes strange things, try moving laterally from side to side to see if you can get a better pinpoint. Also, what laser are you using, there might be a filter you can get which will help further define the beam, I just got the Steiner OTAL (on sale at EO right now), and they make filters for these to better confine the beam, yes it reduces distance but at the distances you’re using it at you should be fine.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Your probably a good person to answer this. The x400 has a nice crisp dot so thats not the issue. Whatever the laser its only going to travel so far (usually not very) before it hits a leaf. I didn't have a live target but practicing on trees beyond where the laser is blocked its not difficult to kind of project it further like you would with both eyes open on a red dot.

The part thats over my head is if the bullet will actually go where you projecting it. Also does the distance of the laser from your eye matter for example from the hip vrs shouldered?

 

[Namekagon]

Just assume the bullet goes where the laser points. Doesn’t matter where the rifle is, but poor recoil management while hip-shooting will change where the bullet goes, but that has nothing to do with the laser.

Trajectory will have a bigger influence on impact vs laser dot. Bullet travels in an arc, but a laser is a laser lol. And whatever difference you have all depends on how you do the sight-in and the distance you expect to shoot at. Now I’ll bow out and let someone else explain the best way to do that, as I’ve only ever sighted mine in once so far.

 

[Namekagon]

If you primarily concerned with shooting through leaves with a laser painted on leaves in front of the target, I’d have my head on the gun looking down the laser. At defend-myself-from-carnivorous-attack distances, it probably won’t matter much.

 

[Namekagon]

Last thought..if it was me in the woods under NODs, and I suspected an animal attack, if want an RDS and a white light on my gun. Reason being the action is likely to be up close and personal, so shooting needs to be reflexive at that point. I have thermal, and it’s great for hunting and detecting a potential threat, but I’d hate to have to try to stop a charging bear 10 yards from me with it. If I didn’t have time to flip the 14 up, the next best option is IR laser.

 

[GreenMushroom]

The laser is obviously the fastest once I learn its limitations. I'm also going to try out shooting with the aimpoint with the 14 in place I imagine this will be a lot easier than the thermal since the dot will be mounted further forward. I don't want to mess with my 14 I just want to shoulder the rifle hit the light and be ready to shoot.

Its not a situation where I'm worried about animals laying in ambush for us. Even predators generally avoid people. What concerns me is surprising animals in the brush. This happens far more often than I figured it would as we don't really try to be quite and often talk back and fourth.

Honestly at this point I'd rate elk as the most dangerous. I'm not sure what their deal is but on several occasions we've gotten to within 15 or 20 feet before they go crashing off through the brush. I find it hard to believe they don't know we're there before then. A couple nights ago this happened and they left a young one huddled in some brush 10 feet off the trail while the rest flailed off down the hill. We skirted it as quickly as possible but were concerned the adults would come back. They don't seem real bright and I'm concerned when spooked they might get confused and run towards us instead of away.

We've encountered bears twice but the seemed indifferent to us and I'm not positive they knew we were there although again we were close enough I can't images they didn't.

 

[Glassaholic]

The laser is obviously the fastest once I learn its limitations. I'm also going to try out shooting with the aimpoint with the 14 in place I imagine this will be a lot easier than the thermal since the dot will be mounted further forward. I don't want to mess with my 14 I just want to shoulder the rifle hit the light and be ready to shoot.

Its not a situation where I'm worried about animals laying in ambush for us. Even predators generally avoid people. What concerns me is surprising animals in the brush. This happens far more often than I figured it would as we don't really try to be quite and often talk back and fourth.

Honestly at this point I'd rate elk as the most dangerous. I'm not sure what their deal is but on several occasions we've gotten to within 15 or 20 feet before they go crashing off through the brush. I find it hard to believe they don't know we're there before then. A couple nights ago this happened and they left a young one huddled in some brush 10 feet off the trail while the rest flailed off down the hill. We skirted it as quickly as possible but were concerned the adults would come back. They don't seem real bright and I'm concerned when spooked they might get confused and run towards us instead of away.

We've encountered bears twice but the seemed indifferent to us and I'm not positive they knew we were there although again we were close enough I can't images they didn't.

I'm not sure it's a matter of they didn't know you were there, but at night they are not expecting bipedal creatures to be roaming about without a light so it may have been more a curiosity, I'm sure they encounter Sasquatch all the time but he just mosey's on by

With regard to the Aimpoint and 14, make sure the 14 is not in contact with the rifle. Wig has given me advice that he has a riser on his RDS so his head can be far enough from the stock so as to not come in contact, apparently the 14 does not react kindly to recoil if it is touching but is fine as long as it does not contact the stock.

 

[Lowdown3]

A less bladed stance will certainly help with movement as well.

We get about 80% of guys that show up for class that are still bladed, rocking back on their heels with every shot, etc.

Squaring them up in more of a forward positive stance helps the movement become a little less "robotic."

Think nose over toes, hips squared towards the target.

If you've ever grappled, pretend your pummeling with someone and look how your body position is. If your bladed, the other guy is going to take you down with ease.

 

[GreenMushroom]

A less bladed stance will certainly help with movement as well.

We get about 80% of guys that show up for class that are still bladed, rocking back on their heels with every shot, etc.

Squaring them up in more of a forward positive stance helps the movement become a little less "robotic."

Think nose over toes, hips squared towards the target.

If you've ever grappled, pretend your pummeling with someone and look how your body position is. If your bladed, the other guy is going to take you down with ease.

Can't wait to try nox binos

Was considering something like this for a mount....

 

[Lowdown3]

It was a pleasure to talk with "Mrs. Mushroom" Thanks again.

 

[jeffl838]

The more surefire answer for bear might be a glock 40

 

[GreenMushroom]

The more surefire answer for bear might be a glock 40

I'm mediocre with a pistol at best and same for my wife. Getting night time pistols with tlr-vir and sro is on the list but its not practical as a primary at this point. The bottle neck for me is time to practice so I have to prioritize. I'm doing night vision, dipping my toes into long range shooting for the first time in years, getting myself in summer hiking shape etc.

Certain things like nighttime navigation I want to be highly skilled at but a lot of other things I have to settle for basic competence. On the shooting stance thing for instance I'm not debating that whats been suggested is superior but the way I shoot now I'm better than the average Joe and sticking with it frees up time to gain other skills.

 

[stefan73]

Night land navigation isn't that bad. Plot your azimuth and distance. Set the bezel for reference, point and start walking while counting your pace. In good mountainous terrain, terrain association is money in areas where you can easily identify key terrain features.

 

[jeffl838]

I don't know much about bear attacks but if you shoot one at night at 25m+, to me, it doesn't sound like self defense. In a scenario where you are defending yourself, it seems to me that the bear has a high likelihood of being on top of you in which case you won't be able to shoot it with a rifle.

Bear Attacks - Seattle Backpackers Magazine

Seattle Backpackers Magazine explains that despite the recent news stories, bear attacks on the trails are pretty darn scarce.

seattlebackpackersmagazine.com

This article (written in 2010) claims that there have been 6 bear attacks in washington state since the 20's.

Don’t lose sleep over bear attacks — but maybe worry about bees and dogs

The Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife’s record of bear encounters lists 14 cases in which a person was injured and one death. Nationally, hornets, wasps and bees were responsible for 28% of animal-caused deaths, and dogs about 14%.

www.seattletimes.com

This 2016 article claims 14, with 6 related to loose dogs and 6 related to bear hunting.

You might be more productive if you do some more critical introspection on what you're trying to accomplish and why. I'm not sure the best defensive set up in the woods is going to be an ar15 with a nox. It sounds like your goal is to take hikes safely so your priorities should probably look like: 1) navigation 2) awareness 3) shooting in defense, so I'd gear your equipment in the same direction. Bino i2 is going to be way better for navigation, and your coti is going to suffice for awareness/detection. For shooting... if you're far enough to where you can't hit the "assailant" with a pistol, I would almost never consider that shot to be defensive... animals don't have ranged weapons, and if your woods are thick you're not going to have them start charging from 20 plus meters away.

 

[Choid]

I don't know much about bear attacks but if you shoot one at night at 25m+, to me, it doesn't sound like self defense. In a scenario where you are defending yourself, it seems to me that the bear has a high likelihood of being on top of you in which case you won't be able to shoot it with a rifle.

Bear Attacks - Seattle Backpackers Magazine

Seattle Backpackers Magazine explains that despite the recent news stories, bear attacks on the trails are pretty darn scarce.

seattlebackpackersmagazine.com

This article (written in 2010) claims that there have been 6 bear attacks in washington state since the 20's.

Don’t lose sleep over bear attacks — but maybe worry about bees and dogs

The Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife’s record of bear encounters lists 14 cases in which a person was injured and one death. Nationally, hornets, wasps and bees were responsible for 28% of animal-caused deaths, and dogs about 14%.

www.seattletimes.com

This 2016 article claims 14, with 6 related to loose dogs and 6 related to bear hunting.

You might be more productive if you do some more critical introspection on what you're trying to accomplish and why. I'm not sure the best defensive set up in the woods is going to be an ar15 with a nox. It sounds like your goal is to take hikes safely so your priorities should probably look like: 1) navigation 2) awareness 3) shooting in defense, so I'd gear your equipment in the same direction. Bino i2 is going to be way better for navigation, and your coti is going to suffice for awareness/detection. For shooting... if you're far enough to where you can't hit the "assailant" with a pistol, I would almost never consider that shot to be defensive... animals don't have ranged weapons, and if your woods are thick you're not going to have them start charging from 20 plus meters away.

The problem with Grizzly bears is that they cover 30 meters in no time flat. Some guy got killed a town over from me last night or this morning. Black bears are all they have in Washington, though, so not really enough to worry about. I am sure they are terrified of human monsters in goggles creeping around them.