F T/R Competition Brass question

[XTR]

This is a Lapua vs Winchester question

I'm in the process of getting a new build done; I currently have a rifle that is set up with a tighter than normal no-turn neck at .339 using Win brass, but I'm shooting with a 24" barrel. Off of a Harris pod I can shoot sub .5 (I've printed .34moa) groups at 100. I like that the necks get worked less and it may just lend itself to a fraction of an MOA in accuracy.

Is there enough performance difference in Lapua brass to switch? Can you use the extra case capacity in WW to advantage? The reason that I ask is that if I switch to Lapua I'll need to get the neck on the new barrel reamed at about .341 or .342.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Re: Brass question

I justed switched from winchester to lapua. The quality is apparent when opening the box. I don't think there is a huge gain in accuracy, but I do think the lapua takes less prep work to be consistent. The lapua case are known to last longer also.
I certainly wouldn't rework my rifle for the lapua brass.

 

[longshooter70]

Re: Brass question

I too recently switched to Lapua brass. The Win brass I was getting was horribly undersized and was causing significant ejection problems in my rifle. Like was mentioned above, case prep time was dramatically reduced and the size of the Lapua is very consistent all around.

Regards to having your rifle worked on, could you possibly just turn the necks on the Lapua? May be a little extra work but would keep you from having to ream your barrel. Just a thought..
John

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

You guys missed a little bit of the point.

I'm doing a new build with a 30" tube (and probably rebarreling my current rifle in the mean time). Since I am starting over with new barrels I was wondering how to have them reamed. If I go Lapua I'll go with a .341/.342, but if I stay with WW then I can go with a .339 reamer.

I've got enough WW brass that I wouldn't have to buy brass for another yr at least, but if I go with a bigger ream for the Lapua then I'm looking at re-stocking with Lapua brass in the near future. ($$)

Guess I just run the WW till it gives out and buy up the Lapua.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Brass question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a Lapua vs Winchester question

Is there enough performance difference in Lapua brass to switch? Can you use the extra case capacity in WW to advantage? </div></div>

I use both Lapua and Winchester brass for competition. I have found that the Lapua are *slightly* easier to prep, but only slightly. The big killer for me with the Lapua brass is the neck wall thickness runout. It can be significant. If you are turning necks, this isn't a big deal. If you (like me) despise turning necks, and cull your brass instead, it's not a huge difference. In a thousand cases sorted, I cull ~22% of my Winchester cases, and around 18% of my Lapua cases.

There are considerable advantages to the generous case capacity of the Winchester cases if you are pushing for every bit of velocity you can wring from a cartridge. The Winchester case averages 1.75 grains of water volume more than the Lapua.

If it was me, I'd stick to what you've got.

hope this helps,

Darrell

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

Thanks Darrell, I was really looking for input from someone who has used both.

 

[longshooter70]

Re: Brass question

Yep... Missed that part completely XTR... My wife says those gray hairs on my head are really just the blonde coming through!
Use what works for you... Personally, after the last batch of Win brass I received, and after contacting Win/Olin, doesn't seem they are going to fix it. YMMV! Good luck, Sir....

Best wishes,

John

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Brass question

Hey John,

To be fair, yours is not the first time I've heard of/seen some crap come off the Winchester line that should never have seen the light of day.

One of the US Team guys was prepping some virgin WW brass and found some that hadn't even had the shoulders fully formed. They looked just like little milk bottles. The problem was confined to one lot (in this case), but zebras do tend to escape their plant on occasion.

Darrell

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Brass question

And in the interest of an opposing view point...

That *one* batch of brass that Darrell used was to be frank, not the norm for Lapua brass. It wasn't terrible, but it was not anywhere close to the stuff I've seen on a regular basis. I had 900 of the same lot, and normally use Lapua cases for my match brass in .308, .223, 6 BR, 6 Dasher, 6.5-284, etc. so I have a fair bit of experience with the stuff.

On the other hand... the last few batches of Winchester stuff I've gotten have been absolute SHIT, not to put too fine of a point on it. Mangled necks, extreme weight variation of 5-7 gns in a batch, unformed shoulders (looks like a milk bottle), pretty much everything possible wrong short of a missing flash hole. Even Darrell who worships at the temple of Winchester admitted they were the worst he'd ever seen. Unfortunately it was one of those things where I'd ordered them, set them aside for about a year, and then was up against a deadline so it wasn't as simple as just 'send them back'. Amazingly enough, they *did* shoot tolerably well - after a whole lot of sorting and culling - along with having to fire-form them to get those cases even remotely resembling my chamber because they were (as Winchester normally is) so grossly undersized. Still doesn't do anything for the undersized case heads...

YMMV,

Monte

 

[longshooter70]

Re: Brass question

Darrel,
The last batch I got had the case head measure .463"-.464". My extractor would barely get enough hold to extract them from the chamber. This was on a couple different lot numbers. Seems like their QC just ain't what it used to be.
Thanks for the reply.

John

 

[longshooter70]

Re: Brass question

Monte,
I completely agree with the Win brass comments. I just wont be ordering them anymore. To each his own. Maybe if enough disgruntled customers let them know they may change... Doubt it but worth a shot.

John

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

To be fair in my usage, I have a whole lot of BHA that I got as once fired and ran it through preps. I figured out that it was WW by weighing cases and discovered that it was the same as my new WW brass. Nothing in my brass inventory has been loaded more than 4x and most is at 3x or less and I'm going to break down and buy a giraud annealer in the near future too so I've got several thousand rounds left in my current brass inventory.

I'm looking at the case capacity as a big plus. I noticed the difference that capacity can make trying to work up hunting loads for my other 308 using a bunch of once fired LC brass from some M80 ball I had shot up. I started getting into compressed loads at about 46gr of Varget, and I know there are folks loading a lot more than that under 155s for TR.

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: Brass question

I bought 4 bags of Winchester .308 brass from Cabela's, and after cussing thru 1 bag, returned the other 3 bags. Flash holes had HUGE burrs, case necks dented badly, and just took a lot of prep to get it shootable. It's almost like their machinery is getting out of spec.

Just got in 200 pcs of Lapua 6br Norma from Powder Valley....NICE is all I can say! This is how new brass should be.

 

[RStewart]

Re: Brass question

I used Winchester brass exactly once. Loaded up rounds for a Field Precision Rifle match with my Match AR. When priming everything felt good, but on the line I had 3 spent primers pop out, locking the trigger. Could not get the 3rd one out on the line, so had to pull out.
Went back to LC for my match.
Have only used Lapua in my bolt rifles.
As always, YMMV

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBore56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Flash holes had HUGE burrs, case necks dented badly, and just took a lot of prep to get it shootable. It's almost like their machinery is getting out of spec...

Just got in 200 pcs of Lapua 6br Norma from Powder Valley....NICE is all I can say! This is how new brass should be. </div></div>

Never cared much about the burrs, I uniform flash holes and pockets on every piece of brass I shoot be it my match brass, my LC stuff for hunting or my nickle plated 45-70s. That is just part of my process.

As for shoulders, I guess I've learned too much watching the bench guys, I never shoot new brass in a match, and since I usually get in 20 or 30 rounds at 1000 every Monday afternoon in the Daylight Saving Time months getting my brass fire formed isn't a problem here.

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

I sort of answered my question by default. My smith doesn't have a tight neck reamer and I wasn't willing to wait several weeks or longer to get one. I went with a .342, at least this time around. I'll spend some time this year shooting Lapua and Win and see if it makes a difference and decide before I get the next barrel reamed.

 

[RCSavager]

Re: Brass question

There are two things really in the Win vs Lapua war. Consistence and longevity. Winchester stopped being a competitor long time ago. If it was me building a new gun and had to make your decision. I'd set up the new gun on Lapua KNOWING that it was the best stuff for the gun. What point is all that money if you just save a few bucks on reloading supplies. /facepalm

If you get Lapua started in your usages you'll see the advantages like others have said from the moment you open the box and every time you reload it. THEN you'll be in a thread like this trying to tell somebody that "YES, that is one place you should spend the extra coin to justify all the other ones you've spent". Just trying to help nudge you bro, find one guy who went to Lapua and regretted it. Makes you wonder what you're missing doesn't it?

Respectfully and with the best of intentions

 

[USAF SP]

Re: Brass question

I did a test a few months back where I used my pet load for one of my 308 bolt guns and kept everything the same except for the brass. I used Lapua, Hornady, Winchester, Remington, and Federal cases. I expected to see better perfromance out of the Lapua and Hornady but didn't. They all printed basically the same.

As stated in earlier posts, the real advantage in using Lapua over Winchester is less case prep time. I've also read/heard you can get more reloads out of Lapua than Winchester. I haven't confirmed it but don't doubt it.

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

I ordered 500 Lapua Cases, but I'm not sure I'll use them. I'll put 100 into use and see how they shoot and how my loads work. I'm doing load workups with WW and I really don't think that I'm going to be willing to give up the case capacity of the WW. Case prep is the single most mind numbing task in reloading but, the worst of it, pockets and flash holes, I only do once.

I am planning to re-barrel my 308 hunting rifle into a 708, in which case I may save 100 of the Lapuas to neck down for that one.

 

[PeterN]

Re: Brass question

+1 on the comment that its a bad idea to try to save $$on components to shoot through your high dollar rifle. Shoot the Lapua.

 

[XTR]

Re: Brass question

There is better for the sake of better and there is better that makes a difference. I've go 500 Lapua cases here, and comparing W-W and Lapua there is no doubt that the Lapua is manufactured to a higher standard; however, I don't think that it is going to make a difference in my groups at 1000 yds <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> more importantly I lose case capacity.

With my current loads I'm already hitting the powder with the tail of the bullet when I load the 185s, and unless I get the throat pushed back that isn't changing, and in case you didn't see it it in another thread my groups with 3x W-W are pretty damned good (.207 and .155MOA at 200 yds is pretty damned good in most anyone's book)

I've talked with Danny Biggs in the pits. He told me when he shot the record F-Open score twice in the same weekend he was using, of all things, Remington Brass.

Yes, I have to sort my W-W and I'll throw out a few, and yes I have to uniform all the pockets and flash holes, but you don't have to do it twice (OK, I do check pockets at 4x but I'd do that with Lapua too) For more capacity and 1/2 the price I think I'm sticking with W-W.

It is easy to say "use the best" but "the best" may not be for a given application. In my case I may load up an OCW series with the Lapua and see how it looks, but I honestly think I'll be selling 5 boxes of Lapua brass in the near future.

 

[Michaelvoigt1]

Re: Brass question

If you weight sort, neck turn, measure body concentricity, deburr the flash hole of major US brass, you can get a great batch of cases.
Or you can open a box of Lapua, give them a visual inspection and load them...
I like the hardness, concentricity and longevity of Lapua - much more than reaming, weighing and diddling with brass.

MV