Advanced Marksmanship Breathing drills

[ManUtdManiac]

Bear with me here... for archery, it's ALL about muscle memory for me. The less I have to think, the less I can screw up the shot and the less emotions get into it with hunting or anything else. Therefore, form and repetition play a key role in practice. Part of my 'drill' is the cycle of breathing wherein I time my release (ahem) with my breath intake.

I've been trying to time my breathing with the pulling of the shot but I"m having a hard time disconnecting my brain from interrupting and fucking around with the reticle and target. I'm trying to focus on the reticle and time my breathing with it being over the reticle to let off the shot. Any suggestions? Am I over thinking this to a strip mall karate studio level of comical mysticism...?

 

[MarinePMI]

Exhale. Shoot.

Pretty simple.

Send it at the natural respiratory pause, that comes at the end of a breath.

 

[Dthomas3523]

When dry firing:

Exhale and break trigger at bottom of respiratory pause. Don’t hold your breath. If you weren’t ready, go through another cycle and break at bottom.

Hold the trigger back for a second as you would when following through to watch your shot. You should be inhaling.

Near the top of your cycle you’ll have another respiratory pause. You should be cycling the bolt about here. Little before or little after.

Now you should be exhaling and ready to break trigger at the next low pause.

So the drill is:

Exhale
Break at bottom pause
Follow through while inhaling
Cycle bolt at top pause
Exhale
Break at bottom pause

etc etc etc.

 

[308pirate]

Am I over thinking this to a strip mall karate studio level of comical mysticism...?

Well beyond that, actually

See @MarinePMI 's post for the answer

 

[C.R. Adams]

I think a possible issue is timing breathing with shot. the shot should be timed with breathing. there is a difference

 

[ManUtdManiac]

I think a possible issue is timing breathing with shot. the shot should be timed with breathing. there is a difference

Bingo. This is exactly what I'm doing and I wasn't thinking of it. Cheers!

 

[...]

no voodoo too it.....find a breathing pattern that works for you and stick with it.

i do squared breathing, inhale for 4 seconds, pause for 4 seconds, exhale for 4 seconds, pause for 4 seconds, repeat.....more or less, exact time isnt required.....adapt it to whatevers comfortable.

but i try to time my shot after i fully exhale, and get settled.


that is all for if im shooting prone, on a slow range.

if im on a clock doing run and gun......inhale, exhale fully, then send it.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Like others have said, breathing comes first.
You should be breaking the shot at the end of your natural exhalation cycle, not changing your breathing cycle to align with breaking the shot.

Don’t put unnecessary pressure on yourself to take the shot “this time” either, if it doesn’t feel right then just relax your trigger finger, take another breath or two and try again next time.

Even take 5-6 breaths between rounds to slow down, make sure you are comfortable, NPA is good, wind is good etc etc etc and you are fully ready to make each shot count before even moving onto the trigger.

 

[seanh]

Archery? What a coincidence that's one of my favorite Shooting Sports. As you well know, breathing is very important with archery. Actually it would be more important. Without proper breathing your muscles don't have the oxygen they need to function properly.

One thing I learned many many years ago was to take very deep breaths. Try to fill up the lower part of the lungs as much as I can. This isn't every breath this is just the saturate the muscles with oxygen as much as I can... Three or four deep breaths is all it takes for me. Deep breath hold, draw to Anchor, let out. This is the equivalent of the bottom of my breath for rifle shooting. Let the site settle and then start my firing sequence and rotate through the shot... I either shoot a hinge or a resistance release... less of course it's the recurve and then it's fingers... oh, by the way my breathing pattern is different with a recurve.

I don't buy into the whole don't hold your breath and stuff. Absolutely I hold my breath at the base of the breathing. It's something I have to do in order to maintain control my heart rate... shoot between beats shoot at the base of the breathing.

Keep in mind I'm a prone shooter which makes a huge difference and how you handle your breathing and shot sequence. Oh, locked in with a sling not a off a rest.

Reason why I mentioned the archery breathing is because you may be able to relate. I applied the same basic principle to my rifle shooting.

I'm sitting here trying to think of my exact breathing pattern that I do with a rifle. Even out of the range today I can't tell you exactly how many breaths I take before the shot. Basically, it's habit now. When it's right the shot goes off and goes well and when it's wrong I have to let the bolt take a couple of breaths and reset.

Just like an archery where let down when the sight picture, firing sequence isn't going right. You basically do the same thing with a rifle... Sometimes you just need to stand up walk away for a couple of minutes and come back.

 

[LawnMM]

Have you tried a paper bag?

 

[A&8's]

Shoot around breathing, not breath around shooting. When you change something that you do unconsciously, like breathing, your brain says, "Hey! What the fuck are you doing!"

I have a natural pause and the bottom which lasts about 1.5-2 sec. If it takes longer than 2 sec to break the shot, I waiting until the next go around. My wife who is a marathon runner, her pause is about 3-3.5 sec. If I wait for 3.5 sec to break the shot, after a few rounds, I'm huffing like a $3 whore.

Dry fire was my biggest friend in learning this. I would make an exaggerated effort to: cycle the bolt on inhale, get on target and stable during the exhale and break at the pause.

 

[seanh]

Have you tried a paper bag?

He's doing it wrong... It's supposed to be a plastic bag

 

[A&8's]

He's doing it wrong... It's supposed to be a plastic bag

And for some, it should be sealed around the shirt collar area.

 

[darth_ritis]

Shoot around breathing, not breath around shooting.

I think this sums it up perfectly and concisely.

 

[TheGerman]

Do you not usually breathe or something?

BTW Bayern > ManU

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Do you not usually breathe or something?

BTW Bayern > ManU

Let me correct that for you... Bayurine....

I do breathe. But I have a tendency go a little spazz when I'm looking at a target through a reticle and I get caught up in the alignment and being 'dead on'. The tip above to time the shot with the natural breathing cycle is what's working. I also shoot/hunt with a bow (recurve) and I use the breathing cycle on the expansion to time the shot but I don't 'aim' with the recurve so it's a more natural event.

I just wanted to know if others had tips/advice, it's not stopping me from getting on target, just wanted to simplify the process.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t worry. Everyone is over simplifying what *should* be a simple issue. But it’s not. Breathing is constantly screwed up by even the best shooters.

For whatever reason it’s almost instinctual for us to want to hold our breath and shoot.

Consciously making yourself breathe normally during practice is the only thing that will stop you from holding your breath on the clock.

I promise you that most everyone who doesn’t/hasn’t practiced holds their breath on the clock without realizing it. Or they don’t break at their natural pause.

 

[seanh]

Nothing wrong at all with holding your breath ... So long as it's not too long. Go to one of the blood oxygen test on regular breathing versus holding breath... See how long it takes for oxygen in the blood to be depleted. Combine that with a heart rate test of the same thing. What you'll find is that you have a window between your natural pause and where you hold your breath too long. Work within that window you're good, try to stretch it and you'll fuk up

How long have you been shooting archery? Specifically, a recurve with no sights? I'm asking because of the comment that you don't aim. I'm asking because people that say they don't aim aren't exactly correct.

What's happening is that they shot enough that the aiming process has become second nature. There's a certain sight picture that when brain sees it the expansion / release process starts.

This is what needs to happen with your breathing with shooting a rifle... do it enough for you don't have to think about it. Do it so much that you know when it doesn't feel right.

So how to practice... Dry fire exercises. You can do this in your room, living room, anywhere you can lay down behind the rifle. Similar to archery, you don't have to have very long distance to practice fundamentals... i've coach people with as little as five yards.

On a side note, I have no idea how you people shoot with the breathing you described. I tried it and it just doesn't work well. My firing sequence is squeezing the muscle between the shoulder blades stop.. Draw with the back to Anchor squeeze to continue the rotation.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Nothing wrong at all with holding your breath ... So long as it's not too long. Go to one of the blood oxygen test on regular breathing versus holding breath... See how long it takes for oxygen in the blood to be depleted. Combine that with a heart rate test of the same thing. What you'll find is that you have a window between your natural pause and where you hold your breath too long. Work within that window you're good, try to stretch it and you'll fuk up

How long have you been shooting archery? Specifically, a recurve with no sights? I'm asking because of the comment that you don't aim. I'm asking because people that say they don't aim aren't exactly correct.

What's happening is that they shot enough that the aiming process has become second nature. There's a certain sight picture that when brain sees it the expansion / release process starts.

This is what needs to happen with your breathing with shooting a rifle... do it enough for you don't have to think about it. Do it so much that you know when it doesn't feel right.

So how to practice... Dry fire exercises. You can do this in your room, living room, anywhere you can lay down behind the rifle. Similar to archery, you don't have to have very long distance to practice fundamentals... i've coach people with as little as five yards.

On a side note, I have no idea how you people shoot with the breathing you described. I tried it and it just doesn't work well. My firing sequence is squeezing the muscle between the shoulder blades stop.. Draw with the back to Anchor squeeze to continue the rotation.

I've been shooting recurves for about 2.5 years now. Once I started I couldn't stop! I"m not a purist in regards to the whole "i never see the arrow.'. Of course I do, it's literally under my nose!! But I don't consciously or methodically gap shooting and I shoot split finger too. My focus is the target, the arrow is in the sight picture but it's not my conscious aiming point. Rather, I focus on form. I find good form usually gets me on target and good routine gets me consistently on target. I'm basically looking to see where breathing, especially at longer distances, can be made part of the shot routine for rifle. Add to this that I don't want to be a 100% prone shooter. I like shooting off-hand, in a sling whether in a pure off-hand position or some version with a prop. In what is essentially a stress position like a compromised kneeling/standing position, breath control is important to deal with fatigue when you're not able to get perfect bone/bone contact for weight management of the rifle. Simple answer is get stronger...

For breathing, in archery I see it an as 'expansion'. I've found that what works for me on recurve (50#, Border Covert Hunter Hex8 limbs) is to exhale on the start of the draw, pull and anchor and then inhale as I squeeze my back. I have to do this to ensure I don't collapse on the anchor and creep forward prior to release. It's this 'breathing to trigger the shot' I'm trying to replicate on the rifle. When I took up recurve I basically forgot about rifles, but now that I'm happy with being hunting effective out to 45yds on the recurve, I want to get back to rifles again. I dug up an IOTA I bought ages ago so I'll be practicing with that. Also, out my window I have a clear 1,200 yard 'range' to dry fire targets against so there won't be any shortage of practice (benefit of being divorced, rifle can be on the kitchen island all bloody day and I can dry fire whenever I want... . There's porn viewing benefits too but I'll let German chime in on how his sister's doing in the movie biz...

 

[A&8's]

Go to one of the blood oxygen test on regular breathing versus holding breath... See how long it takes for oxygen in the blood to be depleted.

To quote @lowlight during his PR class, "...It's not so much the lack of oxygen, it's more of the build up of CO2. If you put a pulse-ox on your finger, it takes about a min to register. Whereas, you start building up the CO2 levels immediately....Then your brain turns on the 'steady cam.' Which, actually makes the wobble/shake more noticeable..."

 

[A&8's]

Breathing is constantly screwed up by even the best shooters.

For whatever reason it’s almost instinctual for us to want to hold our breath and shoot.

It seems that the more a person focuses on the target (meaning, the longer they strive to be stable), the more likely they are to hold their breath. It's the more experienced shooters who realize they are holding their breath during the extra long hold times that make the conscience decision to exhale and take another breath.

I've watched scope-cam videos of very good "pro" shooters who are holding, holding, holding, holding.....then the shot breaks and you hear a huge exhale, like they emerged from underwater.

It's almost like ours brains can't multi-function with aiming and breathing at the same time. lol Yet, 1 of those 2 things are 100% instinctual and the other isn't.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It seems that the more a person focuses on the target (meaning, the longer they strive to be stable), the more likely they are to hold their breath. It's the more experienced shooters who realize they are holding their breath during the extra long hold times that make the conscience decision to exhale and take another breath.

I've watched scope-cam videos of very good "pro" shooters who are holding, holding, holding, holding.....then the shot breaks and you hear a huge exhale, like they emerged from underwater.

It's almost like ours brains can't multi-function with aiming and breathing at the same time. lol Yet, 1 of those 2 things are 100% instinctual and the other isn't.

It’s weird phenomenon. Even when we are consciously thinking about it, for some reason if we aren’t ready a the bottom pause, we don’t want to go through another 5 second cycle. We want to hold our breath for a few more seconds in an attempt to get the round off.

I try to purposely breath out of my mouth while on rifle to alleviate the issue.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

I think it's becoming more symptomatic of (my) weak fundamentals. I know I need to work more on natural POA and driving the rifle. I suspect when I'm 'fighting' the rifle less, the breathing will become less of an issue because I'll be able to hold on target easier. I appreciate the posts. Thanks.

 

[seanh]

Something I was taught a couple decades ago...if you can't fall asleep behind the rifle you're not relaxed.

Regarding NPA...once you believe NPA is established you should be able to hit your target with your eyes closed. Ever do blind bail shooting with your bow...same concept.

 

[LawnMM]

 

[Halfnutz]

Our eyes are oxygen dependent, the longer we deprive them by holding our breath the more they blur or loose focus.

I'm a 200 hour certified yoga instructor (no longer teaching- too many hippies, doesn't pay for shit, interferes with my real job).
There are several breathing techniques that are taught. At the beginning of a session it was common to have students close their eyes and observe their own breath. This was mostly to get them to pay attention to their physical state and quiet their other thoughts. Then have them inhale for four counts to a slightly fuller capacity than their natural pause, then exhale to a five count. The extra count was theoretically to expel all of the CO2 (waste) providing a physiological benefit as well as a psychological (calming) effect.
I found that this carried over well (for me) in preparing for a shot with the exception that I would not control the breath so much as work towards recognizing the natural rhythm and working in a slightly longer (unforced) exhale.

As a side note, I did my final project for my certification on applying Yoga to shooting Bullseye/Olympic Pistol style. The instructor was the only one in the class that didn't think I was nutz when we announced our topics.
There was so much information between yoga and shooting books or manuals that was similar, that I felt like you could almost tear out a bunch of the pages from both and mix them together seamlessly. Body alignment (NPA), breathing, focus, mental/physical conditioning, observing, etc. are all addressed in both activities and training.
I stopped referring to my "classes" as " classes" and switched it to "practice".
I have an extra long length "Manduka" lifetime warranty yoga mat that I have used to shoot off of that works well. Never tried yoga on a shooting mat though- most hippies wouldn't know the difference anyway.

 

[MarinePMI]

There's a lot to be said about shooting and being "in your bubble" being very similar to a meditative state. Observing everything, thinking calmly and executing a task. It's probably why most shooters tend to shoot better in miserable weather (cold and rain); it forces them to ignore certain things, while still maintaining awareness (even increasing the focus of awareness) on the task at hand.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

There's a lot to be said about shooting and being "in your bubble" being very similar to a meditative state. Observing everything, thinking calmly and executing a task. It's probably why most shooters tend to shoot better in miserable weather (cold and rain); it forces them to ignore certain things, while still maintaining awareness (even increasing the focus of awareness) on the task at hand.

that's actually so true. While in PA, it was usually when it was bastard hot and humid or cold/snowy that I shot my best. I found in those conditions I was more consciously focused on the routine of fundamentals.