Bubble Level Alignment Accuracy Expectations?

[ivorykid]

I just picked up a set of 36mm Hawkins Precision Heavy Tactical Scope Rings, and the integrated bubble level is clearly misaligned from the scope cap horizontal surfaces. When placed on a flat, level granite surface (verified with a Starrett No. 98 machinists level), the integrated level is not centered. It took a 0.020" feeler gauge under one side to make it level. That equates to over 39 MOA of offset.

The gap between the bottom half and upper half of the rings is large enough to rotate the ring caps to make the bubble level aligned, but then my OCD kicks in and I can't stand the differential gap on both sides. Also, the surfboard Picatinny rail on top ends up being over 1/2 degree off from level. I don't need the rail to be precisely level... but did I mention my OCD?

Is this offset normal or otherwise within expectations? Before I complain about something, I want to make sure that I understand realistic expectations!

Thanks for the help.

 

[HawkinsPrecision]

I know you've already emailed our team and we've responded, but we'll respond here as well. If you'd like to send in your ring cap in, you're more than welcome to.

It is highly unlikely that you have an incorrectly machined part. Those levels sit in a machined pocket. If the level isn't perfectly round or sitting in that pocket incorrectly, this can happen. Most times it's as easy as spinning the level and setting it into the pocket fully. Sometimes it's just a level that's not perfectly round.

It's a simple fix. Feel free to work with us directly on this.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Go to a bench grinder with a very fine wheel and make sparks until your OCD goes away. Should take seconds.

 

[45-90]

I'd just rotate and run with a slight uneven gap...or put it in the mill and mill off that side to make the gap even...if it bothered me.
I usually run a separate unintragated bubble but have a chasis one. They are inexpensive and easy to adjust.
But if the company will work with ya take em up on the offer...and report back.
I have a granite surface plate and Starrett machinist level, used that and an indicator to machine a few thousandth off a 20 MOA base yesterday.. a machinist likes and expects perfection...it's not there very often, in today manufacturering...even with CNC machines, which will do fantastically accurate work if constantly monitored by a professional, who cares about the quality and reputation of his work...and there is no such thing as perfectly round. You just need the equipment able check how far out of round your new CNC is, in circle interpolation. I had to quality a new CNC to see if they are acceptable for the job it was to be assigned to.

 

[ivorykid]

Hawkins Precision customer service has indeed given me a couple of options. I'm positive it will all be worked out.

 

[carbonbased]

Our very own Frank doesn’t think too highly of scope levels. He has stated they are an ok training aid, but you ear/eye is pretty well trained to do this automatically.

Personally, the levels over at accuracy 1st make the most intuitive sense to me. The ball (not bubble) in the vial moves the opposite from other levels. And with a scope-mounted level you can user-adjust to your reticle.

Collection: Scope Levels - Accuracy 1st

Mobile site sucks…turn your phone sideways for a better experience.

I own one, but I won’t buy another as it isn’t that useful past remounting a scope with the level already on it (i.e. already leveled).

 

[4O6shootist]

Adjustable tube level for the win. I ordered 4 mkm billet picatinny levels 4 or 5 years ago, 1 was true. If you cannot set it exactly as needer, it should be eliminated and not referenced.

 

[svt-bansheeman]

How was the bottom of the Starrett level and other level verified to be flat?

All the talk about cnc maching blah blah blah isn't relevant imo. Machinist make mistakes and somethings those mistakes aren't caught. People are human.

I like to prove something was right or wrong in the first before I go forward. But what do I know, I'm just a very experienced quality control guy in a machine shop with zero long range experience.

We have actually have DMG and Mori here (where I work) leveling off machines since we just moved 9 cnc's from one shop to another.

 

[CK1.0]

This is why I’ve never liked levels being integrated with mounts/rings, (or chassis either, unless they’re checked to be correct and beefy enough to stay that way).

When I mount a scope, first I level the stock/chassis, then I make sure the scope/reticle is plumb/level, then in the last step, I add my anti-cant level.

Whether the rail and/or mount are level or not doesn’t really matter.

…and IMHO an anti-cant device is absolutely essential if you plan on hitting small targets that are far away.

 

[HawkinsPrecision]

To update this, we were able to replace the level in the rings and get this fixed up. It was not an issue with machining of the rings. Sometimes the levels themselves are not perfectly round and can lead to small alignment issues inside the ring.

 

[45-90]

Starrett machinist levels are adjusted an a granite surface inspection plate to .0001" the same plate the CMM is on...and it's has a certification sticker placed on the tool ...checked monthly, all measuring tools in the shop. They are considered reference tools. The electronic measuring systems in the controlled atmosphere in the inspection room have the final say... the accuracy of the CNC mills are checked to see if they meet the requirements of the job assigned. Circle interpolation, angular, straight, square. Linar compensation in programming can not fix all the issues...Starrett levels can be very accurate when everything is set up correctly, and easily read within half a thousanth of an inch on milling setups...one of my favorite tools.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Damn, that makes me feel like a troglodyte with my POS dial calipers and Lowes levels lol

 

[svt-bansheeman]

Damn, that makes me feel like a troglodyte with my POS dial calipers and Lowes levels lol

The cheap china calipers from the auto parts stores work fine for a lot of applications. Cheap doesn't mean inaccurate. People love to throw terms like "CNC", "billet" etc around but it holds zero weight a lot of times. Unfortunately, it does sell products.

 

[Islas82]

I have the same issue now I guess my OCD is not so strong.

 

[45-90]

How was the bottom of the Starrett level and other level verified to be flat?

All the talk about cnc maching blah blah blah isn't relevant imo. Machinist make mistakes and somethings those mistakes aren't caught. People are human.

I like to prove something was right or wrong in the first before I go forward. But what do I know, I'm just a very experienced quality control guy in a machine shop with zero long range experience.

We have actually have DMG and Mori here (where I work) leveling off machines since we just moved 9 cnc's from one shop to another.

Prove someone else made an error? Alot seems obvious to me. You were a very experienced quality control guy...in a machine shop...you say.
My experience, background, and statements are irrelevant to the conversation...you say.
You have something to prove, before you can move on... you say. Clue...At this point no one cares.
But with all that extensive experience, you can not seem to figure out how to do simple tests to see of the Starrett level is ground flat on the bottom...
But you are very experienced,.. you say, and everyone else is prone to mistakes, and must be found out and proven Wrong...by you...But how to do it? Can't figure that out.
The attitude/ ego problem, is greater than the ability as shown here, and would not be tolerated, for long.
So put the level on a granite surface plate over 2 parallel gauge blocks, cleaned of coarse, and measure how flat it is....0001" inspection indicator mounted surface gauge, or CMM...simple job for a competent QC inspector, or lowly machinist.

 

[svt-bansheeman]

put the level on a granite surface plate over 2 parallel gauge blocks, cleaned of coarse, and measure how flat it is....0001" inspection indicator mounted surface gauge, or CMM...simple job for a competent QC inspector, or lowly machinist.

Thank you. I never death with levels. No matter the experience, there's always something to learn. I do agree what I said sounded very arrogant. I misunderstood the OP. I didnt understand the point of mentioning CNC's at first but I do now. I was wrong.

 

[CK1.0]

It's funny, it's a shame there aren't more/better choices out there for simple analog scope levels... they range from Amazon crap to $50-100 crap mostly.

I look at my level before every single shot and have become pretty particular... and now my chosen ~$50 level dictates what mounts/rings I can use.

I've actually wanted to try a different mount for a while, but most of the good ones out there don't have enough room between the rings to mount a level at the front of the tube (muzzle-side of the elevation turret), let alone still leave a little wiggle room for a bit of fine adjustment of one's eye relief.

I shoot both eyes open so I'm not sure if a Send-It level would work for me without dazzling my non-dominant eye, and I don't like how bulky they are. Besides, I'm sure I'd end up having to get the Brandt Built kit just to be extra fancy, and then I'd just end up catching it on something, breaking it, and fucking up my day lol.

FWIW, I run an MPA BA mount and MK Machining billet scope level, both of which have been mostly solid for me, but could be better. The fact that the MK level uses a hinge (like ARC rings, which makes setting it up 1000x better than pretty much any other out there) is almost enough to make it a first among the options out there, but I also like that the fluid inside is a thick viscosity so the bubble isn't overly sensitive like most of them.

Setting up pretty much all of the other ones I've had (which is most/if not all of them), especially the ones that clamp closed with one screw and/or are super-sensitive (like the Vortex Lo pro level) is an annoying, curse-filled process.

I'd maybe try an Accuracy 1st if they made one without the 10 lines (8 too many IMO lol).

Companies like Area419 will come out with a $400 billet chamber flag, but nobody really makes a truly good level IMO.

 

[epeet]

Go to a bench grinder with a very fine wheel and make sparks until your OCD goes away. Should take seconds.

Ok, this has to be my favorite response of all time for a "my product is broke" post.

 

[ivorykid]

Hawkins Precision indeed made it right. They sent the ring cap back to me the same day that they received it. I can confirm that the replaced vile is true to the ring cap bottoms surface.

How was the bottom of the Starrett level and other level verified to be flat?
...

I don't have the capability to measure flatness of the Starrett's base, so I have to assume it is within spec. But I was only using it to verify that my granite plate was level, averaged over the length of the Starrett. Of course, the Starrett has to be calibrated first (that's why it has an adjustment screw on one side). The evaluation surface actually doesn't have to be perfectly level to verify calibration: you first take note of where the bubble rests in one orientation, then turn the level around 180°, and make sure the bubble comes to a rest at the same equivalent position. If it doesn't, make adjustments and iterate.

Any way, my granite was flat enough to make a relevant comparison. But it's all irrelevant now, because Hawkins fixed it.

Thanks Hawkins. Definitely recommended

 

[oso1]

Companies like Area419 will come out with a $400 billet chamber flag, but nobody really makes a truly good level IMO.

Wait until youtubers say you need a $400 chamber flag, then many will tell you your plastic chamber flag is junk and you need the $ 400 version

 

[Sblzrd65]

Our very own Frank doesn’t think too highly of scope levels. He has stated they are an ok training aid, but you ear/eye is pretty well trained to do this automatically.

Personally, the levels over at accuracy 1st make the most intuitive sense to me. The ball (not bubble) in the vial moves the opposite from other levels. And with a scope-mounted level you can user-adjust to your reticle.

Collection: Scope Levels - Accuracy 1st

Mobile site sucks…turn your phone sideways for a better experience.

I own one, but I won’t buy another as it isn’t that useful past remounting a scope with the level already on it (i.e. already leveled).

I second those. Had one of the Vortex bubble ones to start but it could be moved a relatively decent bit before the bubble did. Moved it to a gas gun. Those Accurary 1st ones are great. I love the curve to them and all the various vertical lines are helpful.