BUILD QUESTIONS - LARGE FRAME MK12 SPR

[ArmchairOperator]

I’m building a large frame AR inspired by the MK12 Mod 12 SPR AR-15. PRI has all of the parts for this for large frame ARs. My question surrounds the flip up front sight gas block. My plan is to use a 16” barrel, since I will be suppressed most of the time to cut down on length, if I can accomplish what I am hoping. AR-10s are overgassed, so I want an adjustable system. Plan is for a 16” mid gas hbar, with a Superlative bleed off gas block, and then install a PRI flip up site gas block, clamp on type, at the rifle gas position dissipator style. Thinking of using a Criterion barrel for this. Barrel is 0.750 at the gas block, and 0.740 in front of it to the muzzle thread. The PRI clamp on is made for a 0.750 gas block journal. Do you guys think that it would have enough clamping range to tighten down and clamp correctly on the 0.740 portion of the barrel? I want my cale and eat it to. MK12 Mod 0 look but with an adjustable gas system, on an AR-10. Thanks for the help.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I can't answer your question but with a full time suppressed large frame I would recommend a rifle gas system and either modifying the gas block to make it adjustable or using an adjustable gas key. A mid gas suppressed large frame sounds like a nightmare.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

I agree, but thought this was best vs the alternatives. How well do the adjustable gas keys work? I’m really not a fan of adjustable gas systems, but do to the overgassed nature of the big AR I didn’t see an alternative. Here’s where I’m at, 1) mid gas with Superlative bleed off and PRI flip up gas block at rifle position. 2) Rifle gas 16” with PRI flip up gas block, that is non adjustable 3) 18” with PRI flip up gas block, that is non adjustable. The barrel options all seem to have gas ports that are too large, which I why I thought adjustable would help. 4) Wait until Triarc has their 18” Track 2.0 barre back on stock with a properly sized gas port, 5) Use a Criterion 16” Rifle Gas if they size their gas port correctly. 6) Cut and machine away enough of the PRI SPR top rail to allow for a rail mounted flip up BUIS, run a 16” rifle gas, with adjustable gas block and be done with it, either a criterion/superlative combo or a Noveske with a switchblock. With this option I don’t get the exact look I want, but at the end of the day I will choose function over form if I have to. I was going to just use a Ballistic Advantage 18” premium barre and cut and rethread to 16”. It’s gas port is 0.089” which I thought seemed to big even with the short dwell time on a 16” rifle gas, but I could be wrong about that. Can anyone recommend a gas port size for a 16” rifle gas 308 running a Sandman S? Can anyone recommend a 16” heavy profile barrel with a rifle length gas system that’s got a properly sized gas port?

 

[charnicus]

My opinion is to either spec a barrel and have a custom shop make it. Keystone Accuracy, Craddock, etc.

Alternatively look for other means to down tune the gas, say BRT gas tube, JP SCS and spring packs etc. Run the PRI gas block sight as it ships.

Tried to get a grasp on what you explained with dual gas blocks but didn’t comprehend.

 

[Ravenworks]

Barnes Precision Machine makes an in-line AGB coupled with a sight from A.R.M.S. and you'll have what you want.
BUT
As stated above you should be thinking about a rifle length gas system, coupled with a buffer and spring from Heavy buffers you'll have a reliable gas gun.
I have all 3 lengths of Criterion barrels and they are reliable.

BPM – BPM – Barnes Precision Machine

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[ArmchairOperator]

My opinion is to either spec a barrel and have a custom shop make it. Keystone Accuracy, Craddock, etc.

Alternatively look for other means to down tune the gas, say BRT gas tube, JP SCS and spring packs etc. Run the PRI gas block sight as it ships.

Tried to get a grasp on what you explained with dual gas blocks but didn’t comprehend.

Was trying to avoid custom, but it is what it is if that’s the best option. As far as dual gas blocks, it’s essentially a faux dissipator. The original dissipator was a chopped down M16 to 16” with rifle gas and has a standard FSB. Not super reliable, due to low dwell time. A faux dissipator would be a barrel with a shorter gas system and a low pro gas block, with an FSB at the rifle position. The FSB doesn’t function as a gas block only as a sight.

Barnes Precision Machine makes an in-line AGB coupled with a sight from A.R.M.S. and you'll have what you want.
BUT
As stated above you should be thinking about a rifle length gas system, coupled with a buffer and spring from Heavy buffers you'll have a reliable gas gun.
I have all 3 lengths of Criterion barrels and they are reliable.

BPM – BPM – Barnes Precision Machine

www.usamade-ar15parts.com

Iron Sights - A.R.M.S., Inc. Shop the Latest Products Now

Shop Now. Iron Sights. Choose from over 15 different products. A.R.M.S.® products are proudly made in the USA by American Craftsmen.

armsmounts.com

How heavy spring and buffer? Is that BPM flip up set up for correct elevation on a DPMS low pro receiver?

 

[charnicus]

Was trying to avoid custom, but it is what it is if that’s the best option. As far as dual gas blocks, it’s essentially a faux dissipator. The original dissipator was a chopped down M16 to 16” with rifle gas and has a standard FSB. Not super reliable, due to low dwell time. A faux dissipator would be a barrel with a shorter gas system and a low pro gas block, with an FSB at the rifle position. The FSB doesn’t function as a gas block only as a sight.



How heavy spring and buffer? Is that BPM flip up set up for correct elevation on a DPMS low pro receiver?

Not sure how much diggin you’ve done but I’ve seen somewhere, on another forum, where someone did a full Mod 0 in .308. One thing though is the PRI forend stuff is all for DPMS high if my facts are straight.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Not sure how much diggin you’ve done but I’ve seen somewhere, on another forum, where someone did a full Mod 0 in .308. One thing though is the PRI forend stuff is all for DPMS high if my facts are straight.

I spoke with PRI and their DPMS stuff is for low unless otherwise specified. They told me as follows for the round tubes.

DPMS LOW = DPMS FOREARM AND TOP RAIL

DPMS HIGH = DPMS FOREARM WITH ARMALITE TOP RAIL

ARMALITE = ARMALITE FOREARM AND TOP RAIL

 

[charnicus]

I spoke with PRI and their DPMS stuff is for low unless otherwise specified. They told me as follows for the round tubes.

DPMS LOW = DPMS FOREARM AND TOP RAIL

DPMS HIGH = DPMS FOREARM WITH ARMALITE TOP RAIL

ARMALITE = ARMALITE FOREARM AND TOP RAIL

That’s cool to know. I’ve asked them in the past and they’ve said, “What’s DPMS low?”

Just to play devils advocate, have you considered a Mod H?

Also in trying to track down the Mod 0 .308 I came accross a build with the delta forend. That would be sick with an Arca rail underneath.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

How well do the adjustable gas keys work?

5) Use a Criterion 16” Rifle Gas if they size their gas port correctly.

I was going to just use a Ballistic Advantage 18” premium barre and cut and rethread to 16”.

I don't own an adjustable gas key but I know several people that are happy with theirs.
All the Criterions I've owned or messed with had reasonable gas ports.
Once you add $100 to cut and thread a cheaper barrel it's suddenly almost as much as a custom.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

That’s cool to know. I’ve asked them in the past and they’ve said, “What’s DPMS low?”

Just to play devils advocate, have you considered a Mod H?

Also in trying to track down the Mod 0 .308 I came accross a build with the delta forend. That would be sick with an Arca rail underneath.

They don’t have the top rail for the Mod H for the 308. They have an SPR top rail shortened for a front sight for DPMS HIGH and ARMALITE, but not for the DPMS LOW. I saw a Mod H AR-15 where the builder had chopped a couple inches off the front to allow for a flip up sight.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

At the moment I’m leaning towards PRI flip up and that BPM adjustable gas tube that was recommended on a rifle gas heavy 16”. Rifle is PSA PA-10 with an 18” mid gas A2 profile, which I hate, hence this project…

 

[Snuby642]

Would a normal agb, forend and buis not work. Is this just a look your trying to achieve?

 

[charnicus]

May consider this barrel wise too:

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Would a normal agb, forend and buis not work. Is this just a look your trying to achieve?

Yes that would work, but Im going for a MK12 Mod 0 SPR look. Was love at first sight when I first saw the MK12 Mod 0. I know it’s an older design and heavy, still love it. When I saw I could build one one on a large frame, I knew I had to do it.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

So I think the Barnes adjustable gas tube with the PRI front sight gas block is the way to go on this.

As far as a custom barrel, anyone have experience with X-caliber barrels? I guess they will do one custom how I want it, but I’ve never heard of them.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

As far as a custom barrel, anyone have experience with X-caliber barrels?

I've got two of them. Neither of them shoot blaster ammo as well as I'd like but they're pretty good with quality ammo.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

I've got two of them. Neither of them shoot blaster ammo as well as I'd like but they're pretty good with quality ammo

How do you define blaster ammo? I won’t run any steel case (I guess unless SHTF and that’s all there is, haha) but likely many flavors of M80 ball and various factory 308 hunting and target loads. Reliability is more of my concern here. Shoot anything in any conditions suppressed or unsuppressed.

 

[Ravenworks]

I have to ask, how much experience do you have with the large frame platform?

Slash's buffers that he made for me are 11-Oz .
Again I'm running rifle gas systems and they run like well oiled Singer sewing machines.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

I have to ask, how much experience do you have with the large frame platform?

Slash's buffers that he made for me are 11-Oz .
Again I'm running rifle gas systems and they run like well oiled Singer sewing machines.

None on a large frame AR, this is my first rodeo. I know they lack standardization, I know my PA-10 is a DPMS LOW, and that they tend to be overgassed. Here are the AR-15s I’ve built. My take on the MK12 Mod 0, take on an M4A1 Block II, and my take on a MK18 in pistol form.

I would probably go with a slash buffer and spring after reading about them. What barrel are you running and what is the gas port size?

Here is the picture that made me want to build a large frame MK12

And here is the Mod H with modified top rail that could be an option on my build. I run a machine shop so I can do the work myself on this. Anyone know the owner of this one as well? Would like to know what exactly he did for this and if there’s anything I should know about this kind of modification.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

How do you define blaster ammo?

I've got a mixed brass 55gr fmj load that I pump out on a progressive press that typically shoots 1.5 moa or a little better from most of my guns. My X-Caliber in 5.56 is closer to 2 moa with that load. It's acceptable for the loads purpose and 77 or 69gr SMK's easily shoot sub .75 with no load development.
My X-Caliber 6mm Grendel didn't prefer the secant ogive high BC VLD type bullets I had high hopes for, which has always been the case for me when I try the pointiest of bullets, but shoots SMK's and the like great.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

I don't own an adjustable gas key but I know several people that are happy with theirs.
All the Criterions I've owned or messed with had reasonable gas ports.
Once you add $100 to cut and thread a cheaper barrel it's suddenly almost as much as a custom.

I can cut and rethread myself so that’s not really an issue. Wouldn’t trust myself to chamber or make a barrel from a blank or profile a barrel but simpler stuff like muzzle threads and pin and weld I’m comfortable with doing.

 

[charnicus]

None on a large frame AR, this is my first rodeo. I know they lack standardization, I know my PA-10 is a DPMS LOW, and that they tend to be overgassed. Here are the AR-15s I’ve built. My take on the MK12 Mod 0, take on an M4A1 Block II, and my take on a MK18 in pistol form.

View attachment 7720401
I would probably go with a slash buffer and spring after reading about them. What barrel are you running and what is the gas port size?

Here is the picture that made me want to build a large frame MK12
View attachment 7720408

And here is the Mod H with modified top rail that could be an option on my build. I run a machine shop so I can do the work myself on this. Anyone know the owner of this one as well? Would like to know what exactly he did for this and if there’s anything I should know about this kind of modification.
View attachment 7720410

The owner of the bottom one is somewhere on Calguns if you’d believe it. He’s done several extremely legit Mk12 builds. He cloned the OG prototype Mod 0. Machined several parts from scratch. Google images will bring you to the Mk12 thread over there.

It’s funny, when I mentioned a Mod H type deal this is what I had pictured. It would look titties on a large frame and flush suppressor. Gives you more option for gas block which I would go for over the adjustable tube. It may become a pain to change inside (guessing I dunno) the rail vs an SLR adjustable block. Future convenience in adjustability down the road would be something I would have in the top 5. Different ammo etc may warrant gas adjustment.

Also I wanted to mention at some point after looking at the X Caliber options is what about running a larger barrel with an .875 gas block?

 

[ArmchairOperator]

The owner of the bottom one is somewhere on Calguns if you’d believe it. He’s done several extremely legit Mk12 builds. He cloned the OG prototype Mod 0. Machined several parts from scratch. Google images will bring you to the Mk12 thread over there.

It’s funny, when I mentioned a Mod H type deal this is what I had pictured. It would look titties on a large frame and flush suppressor. Gives you more option for gas block which I would go for over the adjustable tube. It may become a pain to change inside (guessing I dunno) the rail vs an SLR adjustable block. Future convenience in adjustability down the road would be something I would have in the top 5. Different ammo etc may warrant gas adjustment.

Also I wanted to mention at some point after looking at the X Caliber options is what about running a larger barrel with an .875 gas block?

What would be the advantage of using the larger gas block?

 

[charnicus]

Heavier barrel.

 

[bfoosh006]

FWIW... PSA PA10's are in between the DPMS Low and the DPMS High. At least mine are.

I "think"... the PSA Tang is .192, or .182 compared to the Midwest Industries measured DPMS low .151 and DPMS High .210

I can check some spare uppers tonight if anyone would like to know.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

FWIW... PSA PA10's are in between the DPMS Low and the DPMS High. At least mine are.

I "think"... the PSA Tang is .192, or .182 compared to the Midwest Industries measured DPMS low .151 and DPMS High .210

I can check some spare uppers tonight if anyone would like to know.

What generation are yours? Mine is Gen III. I have not actually checked it so I should probably do that first. This kind of de-rails this idea. Makes me want to sell it and start over. I bought it because it was what they had in stock, with plans to swap barre and Handguard for non-PSA parts but if it’s proprietary that’s lame.

Will an Aero upper work on a PA-10 lower?

 

[bfoosh006]

I just checked my 2 virgin PA10 Gen III uppers.... .191 tang height.

As for a Aero M5 upper working on a PA10 lower... I have read of one person getting it to work, but many others have said no dice. ( Including me )
Even the one guy that said it "fit" , commented that the esthetics didn't line up.

I did buy an Aero M5 bare upper , just to see if it would "fit" .... no dice. Pins location ( takedown pins ) wouldn't allow proper use.
I also tried a MidwayUSA Stoner upper... and while it would fit, receiver pin wise.... the before mentioned BCG axis and the lowers RE were "off" enough for me to say no dice as well.


And... Aero and PSA use different bolt catches... and probably other different subtle differences.
Stuff like mag catch positioning on the lower and the positioning of the mags feed lips because of that...., BCG bore axis height compared to the lowers RE axis height.

I am not saying PSA's are poop... just a slightly different pattern... and in the "Lack of a milspec guideline " world of Large frame AR's , they can be a beast unto themselves.

I have numerous PA10/65 rifles, and love them for what they are. The uppers and lowers have made for some great shooting, very accurate Large Frames.
I also have accepted the "middle of the road" tang height, and have still used MI handguards... the difference, in my case, hasn't been an issue.
My assm'd PA10's and PA65's can be more accurate than I... ( damned flier on 10rd groups ! ... and I know it is me )

 

[ArmchairOperator]

I just checked my 2 virgin PA10 Gen III uppers.... .191 tang height.

As for a Aero M5 upper working on a PA10 lower... I have read of one person getting it to work, but many others have said no dice. ( Including me )
Even the one guy that said it "fit" , commented that the esthetics didn't line up.

I did buy an Aero M5 bare upper , just to see if it would "fit" .... no dice. Pins location ( takedown pins ) wouldn't allow proper use.
I also tried a MidwayUSA Stoner upper... and while it would fit, receiver pin wise.... the before mentioned BCG axis and the lowers RE were "off" enough for me to say no dice as well.


And... Aero and PSA use different bolt catches... and probably other different subtle differences.
Stuff like mag catch positioning on the lower and the positioning of the mags feed lips because of that...., BCG bore axis height compared to the lowers RE axis height.

I am not saying PSA's are poop... just a slightly different pattern... and in the "Lack of a milspec guideline " world of Large frame AR's , they can be a beast unto themselves.

I have numerous PA10/65 rifles, and love them for what they are. The uppers and lowers have made for some great shooting, very accurate Large Frames.
I also have accepted the "middle of the road" tang height, and have still used MI handguards... the difference, in my case, hasn't been an issue.
My assm'd PA10's and PA65's can be more accurate than I... ( damned flier on 10rd groups ! ... and I know it is me )

Ok so it appears the PA-10 is actually closer to a DPMS high than it is to the low. It's only 0.019" shy of the high profile, but is 0.040" taller than DPMS low. So rather than be deterred, I am going to try to figure out how to make this work. I'm actually thinking that if I use the DPMS high parts from PRI, which is the DPMS forearm and armalite rail, and then modify it work work. Im thinking I could maybe mill the top picatinny rail height down by 0.019 to make it work. Which if this is the case, I can use the shortened version with front sight clearance. The elevation will be off by 0.019 but I think there may be enough adjustment in it to work. Plus this would let me use a regular AGB. The other option would be to use the DPMS low parts and shim the top picatinny rail up 0.040"

What about the bore centerline to top of rail?

 

[ArmchairOperator]

The owner of the bottom one is somewhere on Calguns if you’d believe it. He’s done several extremely legit Mk12 builds. He cloned the OG prototype Mod 0. Machined several parts from scratch. Google images will bring you to the Mk12 thread over there.

It’s funny, when I mentioned a Mod H type deal this is what I had pictured. It would look titties on a large frame and flush suppressor. Gives you more option for gas block which I would go for over the adjustable tube. It may become a pain to change inside (guessing I dunno) the rail vs an SLR adjustable block. Future convenience in adjustability down the road would be something I would have in the top 5. Different ammo etc may warrant gas adjustment.

Also I wanted to mention at some point after looking at the X Caliber options is what about running a larger barrel with an .875 gas block?

So your Mod H suggestion got me thinking. PRI does not make Mod H Recce top rails for the 308, but they do make an extended rail riser for the ar-10 that is just a rail that clamps on and hangs over the receiver. This combined with the PRI DPMS low handguard, would get close to that Mod H look. So I am thinking, 16" or 18" rifle gas with bleed off AGB, PRI DPMS low rifle length handguard, and PRI riser rail, which is not cut to mate with the PRI flip up sights so I could use a set of troys i already have, and I think the 0.019 lower elevation on the front sight from the rear sight would not be an issue, could almost think of it like is a 20MOA canted rail haha (I wonder the actual MOA of this setup. (If I do it ill calculate it to see what it is) This will address the 2 issues I have with the rifle, the A2 profile barrel with mid gas and the handguard which I do not care for at all.

This is the new plan. Will get me close to what I was after with less work. Ill post pics when I am done.

 

[charnicus]

So your Mod H suggestion got me thinking. PRI does not make Mod H Recce top rails for the 308, but they do make an extended rail riser for the ar-10 that is just a rail that clamps on and hangs over the receiver. This combined with the PRI DPMS low handguard, would get close to that Mod H look. So I am thinking, 16" or 18" rifle gas with bleed off AGB, PRI DPMS low rifle length handguard, and PRI riser rail, which is not cut to mate with the PRI flip up sights so I could use a set of troys i already have, and I think the 0.019 lower elevation on the front sight from the rear sight would not be an issue, could almost think of it like is a 20MOA canted rail haha (I wonder the actual MOA of this setup. (If I do it ill calculate it to see what it is) This will address the 2 issues I have with the rifle, the A2 profile barrel with mid gas and the handguard which I do not care for at all.

This is the new plan. Will get me close to what I was after with less work. Ill post pics when I am done.

Since it won’t really be a 1:1 clone why not run a full top rail and HK sights or make a relief cut at the forward most part of the rail? I only say this because you mentioned access to tooling

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Since it won’t really be a 1:1 clone why not run a full top rail and HK sights or make a relief cut at the forward most part of the rail? I only say this because you mentioned access to tooling

Since the rail elevation of the PA-10 is in between DPMS high and low, the top rail probably won’t work. What might work is a DPMS compatible top rail and then mill the handguard picatinny rail down by 0.019”

 

[charnicus]

Since the rail elevation of the PA-10 is in between DPMS high and low, the top rail probably won’t work. What might work is a DPMS compatible top rail and then mill the handguard picatinny rail down by 0.019”

Might even be that much tolerance in the system. I’ll be looking forward to the completed build. It’ll be very unique!

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Might even be that much tolerance in the system. I’ll be looking forward to the completed build. It’ll be very unique!

Going to try the DPMS high top rail since it’s only 0.019” off based on measuring and blueprints. Could be even closer (or looser) depending on tolerance. I think it still might be a bit much for tolerance to make it up on its own, but might not take much. If that doesn’t work, I would try the DPMS low and shim it at the attachment points. The tolerance will be in the connection between the top rail and Handguard picatinny rail, since the top rail doesn’t actually engage the picatinny and is fairly loose. Going off memory on my MK12, but once parts show up and I can measure things I may see a better option behind door number 3…

 

[charnicus]

Going to try the DPMS high top rail since it’s only 0.019” off based on measuring and blueprints. Could be even closer (or looser) depending on tolerance. I think it still might be a bit much for tolerance to make it up on its own, but might not take much. If that doesn’t work, I would try the DPMS low and shim it at the attachment points. The tolerance will be in the connection between the top rail and Handguard picatinny rail, since the top rail doesn’t actually engage the picatinny and is fairly loose. Going off memory on my MK12, but once parts show up and I can measure things I may see a better option behind door number 3…

Hope it all goes together well.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Ok got it together in a Mod H configuration. Base rifle is a PSA PA-10 Gen III. I used a heavy profile Ballistic Advantage 0.750” barrel I found on sale. Superlative AGB. The PRI riser is 0.5” tall and has a 20 MOA cant. Optic is just a Primary Arms GLX 2.5-10x44 with their Christmas tree reticle. ARC 1.10” 30mm rings. Troy battlesight BUIS. PRI DPMS carbon handguard. Dead Air brake. Ergo grip. Noveske Super Badass charging handle, Magpul STR stock with an MDT recoil pad. Magpul bipod, Streamlight HL-X on a Haley Strategic scout mount. Geissele SSA-E trigger.

At some point I will try to figure out the full top rail, but I’m happy with my large frame Mock 12 Mod H.

Plan to use it for deer hunting, plinking, range days, ranch rifle, etc…

 

[charnicus]

Ok got it together in a Mod H configuration. Base rifle is a PSA PA-10 Gen III. I used a heavy profile Ballistic Advantage 0.750” barrel I found on sale. Superlative AGB. The PRI riser is 0.5” tall and has a 20 MOA cant. Optic is just a Primary Arms GLX 2.5-10x44 with their Christmas tree reticle. ARC 1.10” 30mm rings. Troy battlesight BUIS. PRI DPMS carbon handguard. Dead Air brake. Ergo grip. Noveske Super Badass charging handle, Magpul STR stock with an MDT recoil pad. Magpul bipod, Streamlight HL-X on a Haley Strategic scout mount. Geissele SSA-E trigger.

At some point I will try to figure out the full top rail, but I’m happy with my large frame Mock 12 Mod H.

Plan to use it for deer hunting, plinking, range days, ranch rifle, etc…View attachment 7728959View attachment 7728963

Looks pretty sick!

 

[towerofpower93]

Nice looking rifle. I keep telling myself I want a MK12, but know I won't be happy unless it's 100% clone correct, so I defer to my logical side and just buy more components instead.

 

[ArmchairOperator]

Nice looking rifle. I keep telling myself I want a MK12, but know I won't be happy unless it's 100% clone correct, so I defer to my logical side and just buy more components instead.

None of mine are clone correct, just inspired by… I’ve done a MK18ish pistol, an M4A1 Block 2ish rifle, and a MK12 Mod Oish rifle, and now this Mod H inspired large frame. I’m wanting to also do my take on an Air Force GAU-5A ASDW, and another MK18 upper identical to the one I built but chambered in 458 SOCOM with a 1-6 LPVO to use for hunting.

 

[drewthebrave]

I love me some Mock 12 action, and I like what you've done with this one.