Bullet Characteristics Beyond 1000 yards?

[btorrey]

So I wasn't sure where exactly to post this, hopefully this is the right place.

Has anyone measured or gathered hard data on performance of different types of bullets beyond 1000 yards? Not just the typical... velocity, kinetic energy, drop, that sort of thing. I'm talking about information such as actual distances when bullets become trans/sub sonic, and for different types of bullets. Integrity of different types of bullets at extreme long range. True capabilities of some of these bullets. The reason I ask these questions, is because some ELR and LR competitors are what you would call "defying the odds" shooting calibers and bullets far beyond the scope of what many people say they're good for.

If anyone has done some of this research, please let me know, I would love to hear from you. Or just chime in if you want. Thanks all

 

[alamo5000]

I don't know if you are asking the right questions here. "Beyond 1,000 yards" is highly dependent upon what it is you are shooting and in what calibers. A .375 Cheytac at 1,000 yards is barely getting started. Other calibers that are typically much smaller and used at much closer distances would be something else entirely.

Basically a set distance is not what you are technically asking. You are (in my understanding) asking about how certain bullets treat ballistic 'events'. IE the bullet sitting in the gun before shooting is stationary. When you pull the trigger though it can shoot past the speed of sound very quickly. Breaking the sound barrier is what I am referring to as a 'ballistic event'.

Likewise when a bullet is going supersonic and then the various drag and gravitational factors take their toll eventually that bullet will slow down. The point where it goes back below the speed of sound is called 'going trans sonic'. Again, that is another 'ballistic event'.

Those are two examples. Not all of them by any means, but just showing examples. Every round is pretty much going to be different. If you shoot a .223 out of an 11.5" barrel the point where super and sub sonic speeds happen are going to be vastly different than a .223 with a 24 inch barrel even though they are technically the same round.

This is a deep, deep, deep rabbit hole for sure. It all depends on you though and how much you want your brain to hurt. Bryan Litz is a good person to read up on. There are other people and resources out there too.

There are podcasts out there and a number of relevant articles depending of course on how deep you want to dive in.

I was just listening to these podcasts and they touch on some of the things you are getting yourself into.

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 | The Everyday Sniper

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 Part 3 of the Berger No BS BC Campaign this is combined with articles posted on the Berger Website. Stop by to see their new products and articles from Bryan.In this episode, Bryan talks about the effects of a BC at both...

theeverydaysniper.podbean.com

Here is an article that came up with a quick Google search. Like I said, there are a lot of resources out there.

You are being redirected...

 

[alamo5000]

In the 'Resources' section you will probably find plenty of stuff to keep you busy for a while as well.

Resources

www.snipershide.com

 

[btorrey]

I don't know if you are asking the right questions here. "Beyond 1,000 yards" is highly dependent upon what it is you are shooting and in what calibers. A .375 Cheytac at 1,000 yards is barely getting started. Other calibers that are typically much smaller and used at much closer distances would be something else entirely.

Basically a set distance is not what you are technically asking. You are (in my understanding) asking about how certain bullets treat ballistic 'events'. IE the bullet sitting in the gun before shooting is stationary. When you pull the trigger though it can shoot past the speed of sound very quickly. Breaking the sound barrier is what I am referring to as a 'ballistic event'.

Likewise when a bullet is going supersonic and then the various drag and gravitational factors take their toll eventually that bullet will slow down. The point where it goes back below the speed of sound is called 'going trans sonic'. Again, that is another 'ballistic event'.

Those are two examples. Not all of them by any means, but just showing examples. Every round is pretty much going to be different. If you shoot a .223 out of an 11.5" barrel the point where super and sub sonic speeds happen are going to be vastly different than a .223 with a 24 inch barrel even though they are technically the same round.

This is a deep, deep, deep rabbit hole for sure. It all depends on you though and how much you want your brain to hurt. Bryan Litz is a good person to read up on. There are other people and resources out there too.

There are podcasts out there and a number of relevant articles depending of course on how deep you want to dive in.

I was just listening to these podcasts and they touch on some of the things you are getting yourself into.

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 | The Everyday Sniper

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 Part 3 of the Berger No BS BC Campaign this is combined with articles posted on the Berger Website. Stop by to see their new products and articles from Bryan.In this episode, Bryan talks about the effects of a BC at both...

theeverydaysniper.podbean.com

Here is an article that came up with a quick Google search. Like I said, there are a lot of resources out there.

You are being redirected...

My apologies, I should have been more specific. I was talking about smaller cartridges.

 

[btorrey]

I'm sorry, let me clarify. I was referring to mainly the SA cartridge family, and your common precision calibers. Additionally, to clarify ELR when it comes to that world, I would say beyond a mile. I understand its a bit of a loaded question, but I'm just curious as to how some people are able to get pretty incredible results with a cartridge that others say "shouldn't do that".

 

[alamo5000]

My apologies, I should have been more specific. I was talking about smaller cartridges.

The same principles still apply. If you are comparing a .22LR to a .308 Win those are both 'technically' small arms. The answer to the question(s) are heavily dependent on what as well as where things happen.

If I am shooting in Death Valley the answer will be different than if I am shooting in Florida.

Long story short though, yes, lots of people have studied (and currently professionally study) the very things you mention. It's extremely complicated stuff.

 

[btorrey]

I don't know if you are asking the right questions here. "Beyond 1,000 yards" is highly dependent upon what it is you are shooting and in what calibers. A .375 Cheytac at 1,000 yards is barely getting started. Other calibers that are typically much smaller and used at much closer distances would be something else entirely.

Basically a set distance is not what you are technically asking. You are (in my understanding) asking about how certain bullets treat ballistic 'events'. IE the bullet sitting in the gun before shooting is stationary. When you pull the trigger though it can shoot past the speed of sound very quickly. Breaking the sound barrier is what I am referring to as a 'ballistic event'.

Likewise when a bullet is going supersonic and then the various drag and gravitational factors take their toll eventually that bullet will slow down. The point where it goes back below the speed of sound is called 'going trans sonic'. Again, that is another 'ballistic event'.

Those are two examples. Not all of them by any means, but just showing examples. Every round is pretty much going to be different. If you shoot a .223 out of an 11.5" barrel the point where super and sub sonic speeds happen are going to be vastly different than a .223 with a 24 inch barrel even though they are technically the same round.

This is a deep, deep, deep rabbit hole for sure. It all depends on you though and how much you want your brain to hurt. Bryan Litz is a good person to read up on. There are other people and resources out there too.

There are podcasts out there and a number of relevant articles depending of course on how deep you want to dive in.

I was just listening to these podcasts and they touch on some of the things you are getting yourself into.

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 | The Everyday Sniper

The Everyday Sniper: Berger No BS BC with Bryan Litz & Emil Praslick Part 3 Part 3 of the Berger No BS BC Campaign this is combined with articles posted on the Berger Website. Stop by to see their new products and articles from Bryan.In this episode, Bryan talks about the effects of a BC at both...

theeverydaysniper.podbean.com

Here is an article that came up with a quick Google search. Like I said, there are a lot of resources out there.

You are being redirected...

Thank you for the resources

 

[btorrey]

The same principles still apply. If you are comparing a .22LR to a .308 Win those are both 'technically' small arms. The answer to the question(s) are heavily dependent on what as well as where things happen.

If I am shooting in Death Valley the answer will be different than if I am shooting in Florida.

Long story short though, yes, lots of people have studied (and currently professionally study) the very things you mention. It's extremely complicated stuff.

I'm beginning to gather it is very complicated. I may be way off, but it seems to me that only a few people under specific circumstances actually have hard data and knowledge about what their bullet is doing down range, at extreme ranges.

 

[Matches Malone]

So I wasn't sure where exactly to post this, hopefully this is the right place.

Has anyone measured or gathered hard data on performance of different types of bullets beyond 1000 yards? Not just the typical... velocity, kinetic energy, drop, that sort of thing. I'm talking about information such as actual distances when bullets become trans/sub sonic, and for different types of bullets. Integrity of different types of bullets at extreme long range. True capabilities of some of these bullets. The reason I ask these questions, is because some ELR and LR competitors are what you would call "defying the odds" shooting calibers and bullets far beyond the scope of what many people say they're good for.

If anyone has done some of this research, please let me know, I would love to hear from you. Or just chime in if you want. Thanks all

If i understand what you’re asking then applied ballistics has, seeing as they have custom curves and technical data on most types of projectiles well into sub. “What they are good for” is subjective. These custom curves are actual models of the specific bullet vs a standard shape.
And so I don’t have to write what’s already out there, I’ll drop this here:https://books.google.com/books?id=u...hUKEwiU87qx_bzqAhUFip4KHaPqC7IQ6AEwE3oECAcQAQ

 

[alamo5000]

I'm sorry, let me clarify. I was referring to mainly the SA cartridge family, and your common precision calibers. Additionally, to clarify ELR when it comes to that world, I would say beyond a mile. I understand its a bit of a loaded question, but I'm just curious as to how some people are able to get pretty incredible results with a cartridge that others say "shouldn't do that".

Most people say you can't hit much with a .22LR past certain distances. Those people would be wrong. There are lots and lots of people that are wrong out there.

On the other hand there are a lot less people out there who are pushing the envelope. While I don't know all the answers, those people typically understand the principles involved and they can apply them to things that other people think are 'impossible'. Particularly in shooting there are lots of people out there who have only shot tin cans in the back yard or have an uncle that served in 'Nam telling them all they need to know.

 

[btorrey]

If i understand what you’re asking then applied ballistics has, seeing as they have custom curves and technical data on most types of projectiles well into sub. “What they are good for” is subjective. These custom curves are actual models of the specific bullet vs a standard shape.
And so I don’t have to write what’s already out there, I’ll drop this here:https://books.google.com/books?id=u...hUKEwiU87qx_bzqAhUFip4KHaPqC7IQ6AEwE3oECAcQAQ

Thank you for the link. I will check it out!

 

[Geno C.]

I'm sorry, let me clarify. I was referring to mainly the SA cartridge family, and your common precision calibers. Additionally, to clarify ELR when it comes to that world, I would say beyond a mile. I understand its a bit of a loaded question, but I'm just curious as to how some people are able to get pretty incredible results with a cartridge that others say "shouldn't do that".

What others say shouldn’t be done is mostly because they don’t know what they’re talking about. Those of us that shoot more than talk on the internet tend to not care what others say can and can’t be done. We just go and figure it out.

Last year I was shooting 377 cutting edge bullets out of my 375. Somewhere about 25-2600ish they would be very unpredictable. I figure it was caused by my 1-10 twist barrel not giving them the gyroscopic stability they needed to transition from super to subsonic. I switched to a shorted bullet and increased speed, now I can reliably predict where my bullets should go past the subsonic point; if I can read the wind...

 

[Steel head]

My apologies, I should have been more specific. I was talking about smaller cartridges.

I have some experience with 6.5 and 7mm well past 1000.
I can’t say I have much difficulty doing well with them.
Give them acceptable twist and some speed and things seem to work out.

My 7mm 190’s we’re doing wonderful all the way out to a mile and half up until recently as I think that barrel finally gave up the ghost.

My 260 and multiple 6.5CM rifles all have done well at and beyond a mile dozens of times.

 

[CoryT]

Can you shoot small calibers at ELR ranges? Certainly, I've got firing tables for the .303 out to 4500 yards for the Vickers. If I had a choice as to what I shoot at a 1760 yard target with a rifle it would not be 6.5CM.

It's not that you can't hit. It's not a SS/subsonic performance problem. The big problem is wind drift, with a secondary problem of spotting impact. Larger calibers like 375 CT have a huge advantage in wind drift figures. When 1 mph of wind has drift values that are the width of the target, hits are going to be rare.
Being able to spot trace/impact is a pretty big deal at ELR ranges, otherwise we are just heaving bullets at random until we pickup some indication of where we are. Big bullets make that far easier.

While pushing limits is a good thing, the question is really what are you trying to do? If I want a high probability of hitting a 6" target at 600 yards, and I could select either a .22LR or a .260R, I can't think of a single time I'd choose the .22LR.

If I'm wondering if it's really possible to hit an 18"x24" plate at 1800, and I only own a .30-06, the math tells me it can be done, just not with what anyone would call a high success rate.

So, rather than ask why someone else makes an odd selection work, define a problem, then look for the solution. Could you win Ko2M with a .308? You could, but why would you want to even try?

 

[btorrey]

What others say shouldn’t be done is mostly because they don’t know what they’re talking about. Those of us that shoot more than talk on the internet tend to not care what others say can and can’t be done. We just go and figure it out.

Last year I was shooting 377 cutting edge bullets out of my 375. Somewhere about 25-2600ish they would be very unpredictable. I figure it was caused by my 1-10 twist barrel not giving them the gyroscopic stability they needed to transition from super to subsonic. I switched to a shorted bullet and increased speed, now I can reliably predict where my bullets should go past the subsonic point; if I can read the wind...

Is that because the bullet still maintains its spin, even into subsonic? Additionally, have you ever determined when your bullet starts tumbling?

 

[btorrey]

Can you shoot small calibers at ELR ranges? Certainly, I've got firing tables for the .303 out to 4500 yards for the Vickers. If I had a choice as to what I shoot at a 1760 yard target with a rifle it would not be 6.5CM.

It's not that you can't hit. It's not a SS/subsonic performance problem. The big problem is wind drift, with a secondary problem of spotting impact. Larger calibers like 375 CT have a huge advantage in wind drift figures. When 1 mph of wind has drift values that are the width of the target, hits are going to be rare.
Being able to spot trace/impact is a pretty big deal at ELR ranges, otherwise we are just heaving bullets at random until we pickup some indication of where we are. Big bullets make that far easier.

While pushing limits is a good thing, the question is really what are you trying to do? If I want a high probability of hitting a 6" target at 600 yards, and I could select either a .22LR or a .260R, I can't think of a single time I'd choose the .22LR.

If I'm wondering if it's really possible to hit an 18"x24" plate at 1800, and I only own a .30-06, the math tells me it can be done, just not with what anyone would call a high success rate.

So, rather than ask why someone else makes an odd selection work, define a problem, then look for the solution. Could you win Ko2M with a .308? You could, but why would you want to even try?

Thank you for the reply. I see where you're coming from for sure. I'm new to the LR game, and do not dive into the ELR world. It's interesting for a new guy seeing people choose the cartridges they do, for the specific match. I feel like sometimes they're not "using the right tool for the job" so to speak. Just wanted some other thoughts and insight from you and experienced folks.

 

[stello1001]

Most people say you can't hit much with a .22LR past certain distances. Those people would be wrong. There are lots and lots of people that are wrong out there.

On the other hand there are a lot less people out there who are pushing the envelope. While I don't know all the answers, those people typically understand the principles involved and they can apply them to things that other people think are 'impossible'. Particularly in shooting there are lots of people out there who have only shot tin cans in the back yard or have an uncle that served in 'Nam telling them all they need to know.

If you find this video interesting, just wait til you see the one where the dude gets 3 consecutive sub MOA hits from a 17HMR at 1000 yards...

 

[Geno C.]

Is that because the bullet still maintains its spin, even into subsonic? Additionally, have you ever determined when your bullet starts tumbling?

Hard to say if they were actually tumbling.. I know it was unlikely to be accurate at about 2500 and unlikely to hit anything after 2600.

I switched to the 350gr Badlands Precision and have predictable accuracy as far as I’ve shot so far

 

[jasent]

Most bullets today if spun fast enough will transition
Jme

 

[Geno C.]

Most bullets today if spun fast enough will transition
Jme

I imagine that’s probably true

 

[Steel head]

Most bullets today if spun fast enough will transition
Jme

I’ve Even seen the infamous 168SMK do ok subsonic if spun enough.