Calfee chambers

[Kisssofdeath]

According to charts I see all the Calfee chambers have a length of .600" Pretty sure I already know the answer to this but can anyone confirm your rifling engages and engraves the bullet? I'm just looking for confirmation. Thanks to anyone who takes time to check this or already knows his answer is correct based on him personally checking before hand.

 

[Tim7139]

There is no exact, standard depth per se. They are set based on barrel configuration as well as how throat fouling develops.
They engrave some/all based on above.
This is one of the single most important elements of setting up a proper chamber in a high performing rifle.
You might have a top BR smith shoot/remove/adjust depth quite a few times before it all comes togeather.

 

[Tim7139]

Tim7139, do you have a barrel with any of the Calfee chambers either a 1 to the 4?

Yes

 

[Tim7139]

If a Calfee chamber is made it will be .600" deep. At that depth there should be a good amount of bullet engagement. If the chamber is not .600" deep then it's not a calfee chamber.

Really? You better do more homework.
Have zero idea what you know or not but here is a little story for you.
If you ever went to his forums, about a year or so he was going on about how ELEY needed to mark OAL on boxes.
Now why, exactly, do you think he was doing that......because he cuts all his chambers .600” deep?
They ALL engrave to some degree, Exactly how much is critical and barrel specific.
Among the many reasons why CF smiths usually don’t venture there and why home hobbyists usually end up with less than optimum results.

 

[Tim7139]

You got an exact answer to your question.

 

[littlepod]

You got an exact answer to your question.

So in your rifle, with your calfee iv barrel, using eley match or tenex, does it engrave the bullet?

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Littlepod, that is correct. In my IBI barrel on my 457 the rifling does not touch any bullet profile I have. If the chamber was true to spec, .600" +/- .005" even, the bullet should still touch. The barrel shoot great and I for sure won't be wanting to return it but it just puzzles me. Honestly, makes me wonder "what if"....

 

[accurate obsession]

Went with a Calfee #2, reamer was ground without shoulder that would "set" the chamber depth. I believe this is common for Calfee reamers so the end user can set exactly the amount of engraving they want. The rest is just trying different iterations of chamber dia and leade angle. One of the most important steps is placing the crown where it wants to be via slugging the barrel. Todays match barrels are very consistent but they are made by humans and information from slugging can make a difference. Mine engraves with the faintest marks about 3/4 into the driving band of Eley match, sorry I don't remember the exact number.

 

[littlepod]

Ah I can see now how that makes sense... Calfee chambers are straight, non tapered, so you basically can get down as much of the face as you desire for the best results. I guess the .6" measurement is just a measure of maybe the most you want it cut it down to, and not want less than .6"

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Accurate Obsession, you explained it very well and easy to understand, unlike others failed attempt to make themselves look smart. I can see why the Calfee reamers may have a longer dimension than .600" and you explained it very well.

I had one other person tell me their chamber was cut with a Calfee 1 and the bullet was deeply engraved. I do not have a definition for "deeply" in regards to length or depth.

So far I have not heard back from IBI.

 

[accurate obsession]

As far as engraving goes, "deeply" would just be a function of how far into the rifling you push the driving band. In this forum I just assume that the "tactical" trainer type build is most common and mine is built in this way. The engraving I have will still allow me to extract an unfired round. A rifle purpose built for benchrest will generally push the band "deeply" into the leade/rifling and you cannot extract unless fired. I'm trying to skirt that fine line and get the most from my rifle and still be most suited for the type shooting I do.

 

[Tim7139]

So in your rifle, with your calfee iv barrel, using eley match or tenex, does it engrave the bullet?

more or less to about the front of the second drive band. You should understand, however, this can be lot specific, ELEY OAL can vary by as much as .010” between lots.
this is on six different barrels over four rifles.
Now, my smith tends to end Up with a “mid depth” chamber, so to speak, based on several factors as mentioned.
Barrels tend not to be super ammo picky and I spent a whole season running Lapua in a couple.
the OP seems to think the reamer spec showing, say, .600” means the chambers should be cut to the stop.......virtually zero BR smiths do this, which is what I tried to explain.
This with full on BR rifles, on a CZ, not going to be hugely impactful.

Sorry if this sounds like I look smart, however, easier to do when some try to look dumb.
FYI, not your question.

Lastly, nowhere did I say this was a Calfee IV.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

That's right on deeply, the author didn't define deeply but used it subjectively. He didn't related it to factual numbers for comparison. He did say his chamber wouldn't allow him to extract an unfired round.

 

[orkan]

He did say his chamber wouldn't allow him to extract an unfired round.

He should have used a RimX action... then it would.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

He should have used a RimX action... then it would.

Maybe, not sure. This guy is from Australia so it would be a really long shot for him to get a RimX action. But, as far as extraction goes I believe the extractor and its set up plays the main role, not really the action itself. My Tikka T1x will extract unfired rounds from my tight ass IBI barrel with a 52D chamber and my original Winchester 52D will also extract unfired rounds. I'd try a RimX action out if I could get a fantastic deal on one.

 

[b6graham]

Maybe, not sure. This guy is from Australia so it would be a really long shot for him to get a RimX action. But, as far as extraction goes I believe the extractor and its set up plays the main role, not really the action itself. My Tikka T1x will extract unfired rounds from my tight ass IBI barrel with a 52D chamber and my original Winchester 52D will also extract unfired rounds. I'd try a RimX action out if I could get a fantastic deal on one.

52D isn't a tight chamber

 

[Kisssofdeath]

52D isn't a tight chamber

By tighter I mean shortest. Not tight in diameter.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Unless Calfee actually chambers your barrel, I’m not so sure it could be considered a Calfee chamber....jus sayin.

MB

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Unless Calfee actually chambers your barrel, I’m not so sure it could be considered a Calfee chamber....jus sayin.

MB

Well...if your gonna get all technical about it how about a Calfee reamer??

 

[accurate obsession]

So if Ackley didn't chamber your rifle it's not Ackley improved, interesting.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Well...if your gonna get all technical about it how about a Calfee reamer??

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

So if Ackley didn't chamber your rifle it's not Ackley improved, interesting.

Just trying to understand it myself:

(Thread from Calfee’s Forum)
Bill,
I'm curious. Have you licensed specific chambers for a certain barrel/rifle maker? I read on another forum where if a chamber was not .600" deep it was not a Calfee chamber. The person talking about said that he had tried the #1 Calfee chamber but had settled on the #4 Calfee chamber. Apparently there are seven or eight variations.

Now if you have done this, that your business and good for you, but if not, someone may owe you some money. One thing was fairly obvious and that was there were several rimfire shooters who had purchased rifles with "Calfee" chambers most preferring the #4 Calfee chamber. What's special about that one?

Your Gingersnap,
Wally Smallwood

(Calfee’s response to his Cookie Friend)
Friend Gingersnap:
There's only one reamer grinder who produces true "Calfee" spec reamers....

That's Dave Manson, Manson Reamers...

Gingersnap, with the bore/groove diameters standardized like they are today, there's only one Calfee reamer that should be used...

My straight sided, .2250" diameter reamer with 2 degree leade angle, which does not cut for the rim, which allows the schmidt to vary leade engraving to suite the rifling pattern of the barrel being chambered.

My name has been attached to more non-Calfee reamer designs than anyone else in history.

Only Dave Manson produces true "Calfee spec" reamers...

Your pistol fool friend, BC


(Cutesy Gingersnap’s Response)
Well these people think they're getting Calfee chambers on Tikka (I believe) rifles and also on barrels, according to them, sold by Brownell's. I'm not sure but I almost believe they think you're doing the work.

I guess now we know....jus sayin.
MB

 

[accurate obsession]

Yea, I knew that's what you were alluding to. The industry does that quite often, attaches the name of "X "to what they made "Y" because "X" has made a name for itself. With these/any rimfire reamer it's mostly a straight diameter followed by an angled cut in all the combinations that you can imagine coming from that. If a tool is made properly it's as simple as that, although no one except Manson should attach the name "Calfee" to it. IMO the real magic comes from Calfee's inspection of the blank, he decides where the crown will be, how much engagement of the rifling there will be and the actual fitting of course. Not rocket science but tons and tons of experience, you can be told about it, read about it but experience can only be had one way.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Yea, I knew that's what you were alluding to. The industry does that quite often, attaches the name of "X "to what they made "Y" because "X" has made a name for itself. With these/any rimfire reamer it's mostly a straight diameter followed by an angled cut in all the combinations that you can imagine coming from that. If a tool is made properly it's as simple as that, although no one except Manson should attach the name "Calfee" to it. IMO the real magic comes from Calfee's inspection of the blank, he decides where the crown will be, how much engagement of the rifling there will be and the actual fitting of course. Not rocket science but tons and tons of experience, you can be told about it, read about it but experience can only be had one way.

I've not seen anyone in the industry attach someone else's name to something they've copied, but I have seen, many times, someone attach their own name to something someone else has done. In the case of buying reamers that are a certain spec, the Calfee dimensions are published and considered open architecture, so the mindset that anyone is owed money is ridiculous, regardless of who made the reamer.

I have my own reamers (rimfire and centerfire) and don't publish the specs but it's well known who makes my reamers. It's common that I receive emails from my reamer maker letting me know that someone is trying to purchase my reamers and ask if I approve selling it to them. If I sell my reamer, the buyer receives a print with the reamer that says what chamber it is and who designed it, so, it's my chamber. If someone buys a "Calfee" reamer, it's the same thing, so harkening back to your Ackley Improved comparison, it's a Calfee chamber if it meets the dimensional spec because that's how the makers identify the actual tool. No "magic" required.

MB

 

[Tim7139]

Just trying to understand it myself:

(Thread from Calfee’s Forum)
Bill,
I'm curious. Have you licensed specific chambers for a certain barrel/rifle maker? I read on another forum where if a chamber was not .600" deep it was not a Calfee chamber. The person talking about said that he had tried the #1 Calfee chamber but had settled on the #4 Calfee chamber. Apparently there are seven or eight variations.

Now if you have done this, that your business and good for you, but if not, someone may owe you some money. One thing was fairly obvious and that was there were several rimfire shooters who had purchased rifles with "Calfee" chambers most preferring the #4 Calfee chamber. What's special about that one?

Your Gingersnap,
Wally Smallwood

(Calfee’s response to his Cookie Friend)
Friend Gingersnap:
There's only one reamer grinder who produces true "Calfee" spec reamers....

That's Dave Manson, Manson Reamers...

Gingersnap, with the bore/groove diameters standardized like they are today, there's only one Calfee reamer that should be used...

My straight sided, .2250" diameter reamer with 2 degree leade angle, which does not cut for the rim, which allows the schmidt to vary leade engraving to suite the rifling pattern of the barrel being chambered.

My name has been attached to more non-Calfee reamer designs than anyone else in history.

Only Dave Manson produces true "Calfee spec" reamers...

Your pistol fool friend, BC


(Cutesy Gingersnap’s Response)
Well these people think they're getting Calfee chambers on Tikka (I believe) rifles and also on barrels, according to them, sold by Brownell's. I'm not sure but I almost believe they think you're doing the work.

I guess now we know....jus sayin.
MB

So quoting Calfee himself, all his chambers vary in depth based on barrel configuration ?
Seems vaguely familiar .

FWIW that recommendation is likely because the above mentioned smith Usually demands some BS license fee for the privilege of his name, other rhan that they’re about the same.
Nobody’s making nuclear warheads here folks.

 

[accurate obsession]

There are some who, like you, have their own reamer specs and don't mind letting them be sold stand alone (and that's a good thing) but some won't let it happen. From Calfee's quote "Only Dave Manson produces true "Calfee spec" reamers..." made it sound as if only Manson could use his name. For me it's a tool made to numbers, I could care less what name is on it, it just needs to be accurate. The magic, if we want to keep kicking that word down the road really has nothing to do with the reamer specs.

 

[RAVAGE88]

So quoting Calfee himself, all his chambers vary in depth based on barrel configuration ?
Seems vaguely familiar .

FWIW that recommendation is likely because the above mentioned smith Usually demands some BS license fee for the privilege of his name, other rhan that they’re about the same.
Nobody’s making nuclear warheads here folks.

Exactly....

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

"Only Dave Manson produces true "Calfee spec" reamers..."

Smoke and mirrors....

MB

 

[Tim7139]

Smoke and mirrors....

MB

the whole reamer black art deal is laughable.
I suspect given your trip south as well as your own R&D likely showed you there are a pantload of killer guns with straight sided chambers or very slight tapers and leades from1-3 deg, and they are not all done with reamers, to boot.

 

[RAVAGE88]

the whole reamer black art deal is laughable.
I suspect given your trip south as well as your own R&D likely showed you there are a pantload of killer guns with straight sided chambers or very slight tapers and leades from1-3 deg, and they are not all done with reamers, to boot.

Yessir, without a doubt. There are many that are actually still in the game, not on the sidelines, that are advancing things at an incredible rate. All this while third grade gun-hacking on feed trays is taking place.

MB

 

[accurate obsession]

Chambering without a reamer, I’ve heard of it but not familiar with it. I’m assuming some kind of boring bar process? Are small smiths doing this or is it a process mainly for CNC.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Chambering without a reamer, I’ve heard of it but not familiar with it. I’m assuming some kind of boring bar process? Are small smiths doing this or is it a process mainly for CNC.

Not many are doing it this way but doesn't have to be CNC.

We've probably driven this far enough off-topic, so let's take a step back and let it get back on track.

MB

 

[Tim7139]

Chambering without a reamer, I’ve heard of it but not familiar with it. I’m assuming some kind of boring bar process? Are small smiths doing this or is it a process mainly for CNC.

Small shops and CNC both. I believe Stiller does many this way, for instance.
I had one done this way.
If you have a 2 groove barrel, for instance, very tough to keep a reamer from some deflection.