Range Report Calling wind within 1mph

[pitdog85]

Running a 6.5 139 scenar at 2750 has 9.1 inches of wind drift at 1000m in a 1mph crosswind.

Shooting an 18 inch plate and aiming for a centre punch hit if your wind call is more than 1mph out that's a miss!!!

Are you guys shooting 6.5 calling the wind within 1mph at 1000m???

 

[jLorenzo]

So that's around a Mil per mph if my late night guesstimating is correct?

 

[jLorenzo]

About a quarter mil sorry

 

[pitdog85]

Pretty big ask see lots of pics of steel hits on targets smaller than this at this distance!!!

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Pretty big ask see lots of pics of steel hits on targets smaller than this at this distance!!!

They are running better bullets and running them faster. The 147 ELD has a G1 of .691 vs the G1 of .578 for the 139 Scenar.
The 147 ELD at 2800 fps only drifts 6.6 inches at that distance per 1mph.

But to your point, calling wind to within 1 mph when the wind is 3-5 mph is no great trick. When the wind gets above about 7 mph, it gets exponentially harder.

 

[davsco]

calling wind to within 1 mph when the wind is 3-5 mph is no great trick.

yeah, speak for yourself!!

 

[lash]

Pretty big ask see lots of pics of steel hits on targets smaller than this at this distance!!!

I see words that I recognize, but yet do not know what this means.

 

[jLorenzo]

I see words that I recognize, but yet do not know what this means.

Lol This.

 

[...]

i do not know a single person that can call the wind within 1MPH at 1K.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

i do not know a single person that can call the wind within 1MPH at 1K.

My condolences.

 

[...]

My condolences.

ooooh and you do?

im calling BS......there is no way you can tell the difference between a 6mph wind and a 7mph wind at 800 yds

hell, theres no way you can do it at 50 yds

 

[bab029]

Best wind call is to burn one and see where it goes

 

[Deleted member 113831]

ooooh and you do?

im calling BS......there is no way you can tell the difference between a 6mph wind and a 7mph wind at 800 yds

hell, theres no way you can do it at 50 yds

I think you need to go back and read again what I actually said.

 

[LRShooter101]

Best wind call is to burn one and see where it goes

And this is one of the primary reasons why people are hitting those targets! Go to any PRS event, and the first shooter at any given stage is playing "Wind Bitch"! Everyone is going to be asking them what they were holding for wind once they are done shooting.

Hate to say it, but too many people treat wind reading as if it is a given consistent skill set, meaning you can do it to the same degree all of the time. Nothing could be further from the truth IMHO!

Not all wind conditions are created equal, some are very consistent and predictable, and others are a completely random mess. On a “good day” you may be able to make wind calls +/- 1 mph and +/- or a couple of degrees. On a bad day that may deteriorate to +/- 5 mph and +/- 45 of degrees. The success of your skillset is not always just a factor of your application, but it is also significantly impacted by the envelope in which you are operating.

While I have seen a ton of time and effort put into reading real-time indicators of wind speed and direction, I have seen very little put into what will ultimately lead to better success, and that is not what is the wind doing now, but what is ultimately causing it to behave the way it is? What is really driving the wind conditions that you are shooting in? Is it a localized factor, is it a larger scale weather system factor, is it a terrain factor, or some other factor? More than anything, WIND CHANGES CAUSE MORE MISSES, than errors in reading wind conditions! The best success comes from being able to predict or recognize when those changes will occur.

My wind reading skills improved significantly after this lightbulb came on, and I was able to spend time with some people who were very versed in Meteorology. Now I spend as much time studying weather reports in advance and looking at real time weather data, as I do looking down range trying to read real-time wind indicators. First & Foremost, I must be able to call the wind speed and direction, but I also must able to predict how long that wind condition will be stable, and if there is going to be a change when will it happen and what will it be?

I break the wind down into 3 categories:

• Present or Not Present
• Stable or Unstable
• Predictable or Unpredictable

Based on that, I could have a wind that is:

• Consistent 4-5 MPH from 9 O’clock. It is present, stable, and predictable. Very easy to make a read and make hits. Primary skill set is READING
• Gusting on & off from 4-8 MPH from 9-10 O’clock. It is present and unstable, but predictable. If I can predict the changes and read the conditions as they are changing, I can make hits. Primary skill set is PREDICTING & READING.
• All over the place with gusts coming and going in the 5-10 MPH range with swings from 6-12 O’clock. It is present, unstable, and unpredictable. Unless I can predict the changes, and make split second reads, I have little chance of making consistent hits. You can attempt to use the skill sets of PREDICTION & READING, but the best skill set here is actual PATIENANCE as your best bet would be to wait for more a stable and predictable condition.

Apologies for the long-winded response, but I don’t believe than anyone can really get the wind game without a full understanding of what all really goes into it. I have watched someone make a perfect wind call in a very stable condition, make 2-3 hits on a target, and then miss the next 2-3 shots because they have no skill set to deal with the changes that are taking place.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

@LRShooter101 A very insightful response. You sir, are miles ahead of probably 99% of people trying to do this. Keep doing what you are doing.

 

[lash]

And this is one of the primary reasons why people are hitting those targets! Go to any PRS event, and the first shooter at any given stage is playing "Wind Bitch"! Everyone is going to be asking them what they were holding for wind once they are done shooting.

Hate to say it, but too many people treat wind reading as if it is a given consistent skill set, meaning you can do it to the same degree all of the time. Nothing could be further from the truth IMHO!

Not all wind conditions are created equal, some are very consistent and predictable, and others are a completely random mess. On a “good day” you may be able to make wind calls +/- 1 mph and +/- or a couple of degrees. On a bad day that may deteriorate to +/- 5 mph and +/- 45 of degrees. The success of your skillset is not always just a factor of your application, but it is also significantly impacted by the envelope in which you are operating.

While I have seen a ton of time and effort put into reading real-time indicators of wind speed and direction, I have seen very little put into what will ultimately lead to better success, and that is not what is the wind doing now, but what is ultimately causing it to behave the way it is? What is really driving the wind conditions that you are shooting in? Is it a localized factor, is it a larger scale weather system factor, is it a terrain factor, or some other factor? More than anything, WIND CHANGES CAUSE MORE MISSES, than errors in reading wind conditions! The best success comes from being able to predict or recognize when those changes will occur.

My wind reading skills improved significantly after this lightbulb came on, and I was able to spend time with some people who were very versed in Meteorology. Now I spend as much time studying weather reports in advance and looking at real time weather data, as I do looking down range trying to read real-time wind indicators. First & Foremost, I must be able to call the wind speed and direction, but I also must able to predict how long that wind condition will be stable, and if there is going to be a change when will it happen and what will it be?

I break the wind down into 3 categories:

• Present or Not Present
• Stable or Unstable
• Predictable or Unpredictable

Based on that, I could have a wind that is:

• Consistent 4-5 MPH from 9 O’clock. It is present, stable, and predictable. Very easy to make a read and make hits. Primary skill set is READING
• Gusting on & off from 4-8 MPH from 9-10 O’clock. It is present and unstable, but predictable. If I can predict the changes and read the conditions as they are changing, I can make hits. Primary skill set is PREDICTING & READING.
• All over the place with gusts coming and going in the 5-10 MPH range with swings from 6-12 O’clock. It is present, unstable, and unpredictable. Unless I can predict the changes, and make split second reads, I have little chance of making consistent hits. You can attempt to use the skill sets of PREDICTION & READING, but the best skill set here is actual PATIENANCE as your best bet would be to wait for more a stable and predictable condition.

Apologies for the long-winded response, but I don’t believe than anyone can really get the wind game without a full understanding of what all really goes into it. I have watched someone make a perfect wind call in a very stable condition, make 2-3 hits on a target, and then miss the next 2-3 shots because they have no skill set to deal with the changes that are taking place.

Great response! I am nowhere near where you are yet, but have begun to realize some of these same things due to the wind conditions that we often shoot under here locally. I read your post as a spot-on reminder of what I should be doing.

 

[pitdog85]

Great discussion especially LRshooter response.

 

[LawnMM]

Start using your 10mph full value hold as a baseline. Then learn to scale it. If I fire and hit with a 1/4 mil hold at 350 yds...what percentage of my 10mph full value hold is that? Let's say it's 25%.

When you fire at 500yds, 750yds, and 1000yds use 25% of your full value 10mph holds at those distances and say hello to success.

Rarely is the first shot of a stage at 1000, but there are often distant targets thrown in with closer ones. Get the call right on the close ones, then scale it. It's not voodoo, just experience.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Start using your 10mph full value hold as a baseline. Then learn to scale it. If I fire and hit with a 1/4 mil hold at 350 yds...what percentage of my 10mph full value hold is that? Let's say it's 25%.

When you fire at 500yds, 750yds, and 1000yds use 25% of your full value 10mph holds at those distances and say hello to success.

Rarely is the first shot of a stage at 1000, but there are often distant targets thrown in with closer ones. Get the call right on the close ones, then scale it. It's not voodoo, just experience.

Even better, find out what wind pushes your bullet 1 mil at 1000 yards. Then, every additional 100 yard line will equal an additional 0.1 mil.

So, 400 yards = 0.4 mil, 600 yards = 0.6 mil, 900 yards = 0.9...etc. Then scale your wind call off of that. That way, you only have to remember a single number, that number being your "mil wind".

 

[LawnMM]

Even better, find out what wind pushes your bullet 1 mil at 1000 yards. Then, every additional 100 yard line will equal an additional 0.1 mil.

So, 400 yards = 0.4 mil, 600 yards = 0.6 mil, 900 yards = 0.9...etc. Then scale your wind call off of that. That way, you only have to remember a single number, that number being your "mil wind".

To each their own.

 

[pitdog85]

Even better, find out what wind pushes your bullet 1 mil at 1000 yards. Then, every additional 100 yard line will equal an additional 0.1 mil.

So, 400 yards = 0.4 mil, 600 yards = 0.6 mil, 900 yards = 0.9...etc. Then scale your wind call off of that. That way, you only have to remember a single number, that number being your "mil wind".

I work in meters will this work in meters?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I work in meters will this work in meters?

Yes, it will. It has nothing to do with which system of linear measurement you choose. It just matters that your reticle, and hopefully your turrets, are in MILS.

If you are using MOA, then there are different ways to do that.

 

[Scarface26]

And this is one of the primary reasons why people are hitting those targets! Go to any PRS event, and the first shooter at any given stage is playing "Wind Bitch"! Everyone is going to be asking them what they were holding for wind once they are done shooting.

Hate to say it, but too many people treat wind reading as if it is a given consistent skill set, meaning you can do it to the same degree all of the time. Nothing could be further from the truth IMHO!

Not all wind conditions are created equal, some are very consistent and predictable, and others are a completely random mess. On a “good day” you may be able to make wind calls +/- 1 mph and +/- or a couple of degrees. On a bad day that may deteriorate to +/- 5 mph and +/- 45 of degrees. The success of your skillset is not always just a factor of your application, but it is also significantly impacted by the envelope in which you are operating.

While I have seen a ton of time and effort put into reading real-time indicators of wind speed and direction, I have seen very little put into what will ultimately lead to better success, and that is not what is the wind doing now, but what is ultimately causing it to behave the way it is? What is really driving the wind conditions that you are shooting in? Is it a localized factor, is it a larger scale weather system factor, is it a terrain factor, or some other factor? More than anything, WIND CHANGES CAUSE MORE MISSES, than errors in reading wind conditions! The best success comes from being able to predict or recognize when those changes will occur.

My wind reading skills improved significantly after this lightbulb came on, and I was able to spend time with some people who were very versed in Meteorology. Now I spend as much time studying weather reports in advance and looking at real time weather data, as I do looking down range trying to read real-time wind indicators. First & Foremost, I must be able to call the wind speed and direction, but I also must able to predict how long that wind condition will be stable, and if there is going to be a change when will it happen and what will it be?

I break the wind down into 3 categories:

• Present or Not Present
• Stable or Unstable
• Predictable or Unpredictable

Based on that, I could have a wind that is:

• Consistent 4-5 MPH from 9 O’clock. It is present, stable, and predictable. Very easy to make a read and make hits. Primary skill set is READING
• Gusting on & off from 4-8 MPH from 9-10 O’clock. It is present and unstable, but predictable. If I can predict the changes and read the conditions as they are changing, I can make hits. Primary skill set is PREDICTING & READING.
• All over the place with gusts coming and going in the 5-10 MPH range with swings from 6-12 O’clock. It is present, unstable, and unpredictable. Unless I can predict the changes, and make split second reads, I have little chance of making consistent hits. You can attempt to use the skill sets of PREDICTION & READING, but the best skill set here is actual PATIENANCE as your best bet would be to wait for more a stable and predictable condition.

Apologies for the long-winded response, but I don’t believe than anyone can really get the wind game without a full understanding of what all really goes into it. I have watched someone make a perfect wind call in a very stable condition, make 2-3 hits on a target, and then miss the next 2-3 shots because they have no skill set to deal with the changes that are taking place.

Thanks for posting this. In my gouge book now.

On another note, I haven't had good luck with the handheld wind meters. Bought two different brands, took them to the airport, and compared them with the up to the second weather observation on site. Both were off by a mile. 14mph max winds on the handheld while the windsock is straight out and max wind is reported as 20 knots (even faster than mph). It ws the kind of day where you would go thru ETL at a hover for fellow rotor heads. That said, how are you all ensuring that the wind you called X really was X?

Right now, I'm using JBM and comparing my call to their numbers and being alert as to conditions when I broke the shot, and did I really execute the mechanics to standard. If this is hijacking the thread then forgive me and ignore all after Thanks.

Got bless America

 

[LRShooter101]

Thanks for the positive feedback, glad to hear that is has been of benefit to some people.

I had been through every sniper school the Army had to offer, and as such I was a "Bad Ass Sniper"! I wasn’t shooting at my unit as much as I wanted to, so I decided to get into some local matches to get more trigger time. I showed up at my first long range F-Class match and was ready to show all of the competitors how much of a Bad Ass I was. You know how the story goes! At the end of the match I was pretty much in the middle pack as far as scores go, NOT such a Bad Ass after all! An older crotchety shooter who finished in first place, came over and said “you can read the wind just fine, but you can’t predict it for $#!@, typical Army Sniper”! I was about to get really pissed off, then I realized he was 100% correct. He said, “don’t feel bad, I was in your shoes many years ago, and then like you I showed up at one of these matches and I fortunately learned how much I really didn’t know”. Then came the best words that I would ever hear, “so do you really want to learn how to shoot in the wind”? I spent every free moment that I had at the range with that gentlemen learning everything that I could about shooting in the wind, and my scores went from Marksmen to High Master in that season.

Key words of wisdom given to me:
Past – what you see when your shot is scored. You can’t live in the past, but you must learn from it. If your shot did not end up where you thought it was going, why was that the case?

Present – where you read the current conditions. You must live in the present, but you must also be prepared for the future, because the present never stays the same. You must master how long you can stay in the present and understand what is really taking place.

Future – what is going to happen at some point whether you are prepared for it or not! You must be able to predict when the future will come and what it will really bring.

Shooting F-Class it is very easy to look at your last shot (PAST) and use that information to prepare for your next shot (PRESENT). Same goes for PRS when you take a shot and see where your impact is really at. If the wind is stable and consistent, this obviously works very well. A GOOD shooter can make good wind calls determining wind speed & direction. However, as everyone knows the wind is a very fickle bitch, and it is going to constantly change. A GREAT shooter will develop the skill set to predict when those changes are going to occur, and hopefully know what those changes are going to be (FUTURE).

That is way oversimplified, but hopefully the key context is coming across?

Past & Present are not just a given, you must work very diligently at them. Per my previous post, you may be an expert at calling speed and direction on a fairly stable and predictable day, but you may also fall apart on a very unstable and unpredictable day. Likewise, you may do very well on a flat square range, but have issues when you get into an uneven varying real-world terrain. As said many times before: “Perfect Practice, Equals Perfect Performance”!

Perfect Practice is getting out with good instrumentation and doing as many reads as you can. My routine:

• Setup a weather station between the firing position and target position (you can do it anywhere, it doesn’t have to actually be on a range). Examples: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=remote+weather+station
• Remote stations are best because you can get real time data. *NOTE – know your systems specs, know how quickly they respond, and how accurate they are.
• Look at your natural indicators for speed and direction, look at the instrumentation that you have with you (Kestrel), and make your call.
• Then look at your instrumentation and compare your results. If you are off, figure out what you are missing or miscalculating?
• Do this enough in a very structured manor, and your skills will improve significantly.

Per my previous post, the next step gets into becoming an amateur meteorologist. If you can understand how the weather works, then you can understand and predict the wind behavior patterns much more accurately. That allows you to go from the PAST and PRESENT, to the FUTURE!

If you have not read this book, it is a MUST!
https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters/dp/1581605323

 

[Clearlight]

^^^ Cross training in long range target shooting really sharpened up my ability to read angle
change , as well as speed , Having those big range flags to confirm angle , with mirage is
valuable . I can’t call to 1 mph : maybe 2 mph or so . Once it gets over 10 , and you’re shooting
ELR , all bets are off for me ....

EDIT : the Scenar is a well made consistent projectile , but the BC is not there . Try running 140
Berger Hybrids , although finding them in Australia at the moment is near impossible .

 

[pitdog85]

thanks for all the replys guys some great advice here. Clearlight yer the berger bc is better but those things are a joke to find here I think the last shipment of bergers was like 8 months ago according to brt. I have about 800 scenars so I just use them.

 

[Supersubes]

Very well put LRS shooter, thanks!

thanks for all the replys guys some great advice here. Clearlight yer the berger bc is better but those things are a joke to find here I think the last shipment of bergers was like 8 months ago according to brt. I have about 800 scenars so I just use them.

Try the 140 or 147 eld’s. They kill the bergers in BC, are WAY cheaper, and available.

 

[Diver160651]

I was a sponsored windsurfer and later ran the foredeck on a sailboat (only at the club level but a lot of time).. I spent an enormous amount of years, days, hours, $$, chasing the wind predictions, waiting for the wind and once on the water watching the skies, fog lines and ultimately the water and the sails.

The water is an amazing medium, like, but way better than a wheat field, as you can see the gusts and winds direct and its' nearly current effects on the water and prep and move to better wind columns. Wind shadows about 10x the length of the object creating them are obvious.. etc.. It just is so much more detailed than what we have when shooting sans LADAR. Oh, and LADAR is now on the well funded boats.

Why say all this? Well, because I still get F'd by the wind ALL the time...

It just is harder to be what most claim to be, here in the West, it seems some can play the numbers better than others, BUT we all get jacked.. Nobody, I've ever meet, can make a call in changing wind to within 1mph if the did they'd win every long range contest they ever entered, even then... thats why things like SD get buried in the noise.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I was a sponsored windsurfer and later ran the foredeck on a sailboat (only at the club level but a lot of time).. I spent an enormous amount of years, days, hours, $$, chasing the wind predictions, waiting for the wind and once on the water watching the skies, fog lines and ultimately the water and the sails.

The water is an amazing medium, like, but way better than a wheat field, as you can see the gusts and winds direct and its' nearly current effects on the water and prep and move to better wind columns. Wind shadows about 10x the length of the object creating them are obvious.. etc.. It just is so much more detailed than what we have when shooting sans LADAR. Oh, and LADAR is now on the well funded boats.

Why say all this? Well, because I still get F'd by the wind ALL the time...

It just is harder to be what most claim to be, here in the West, it seems some can play the numbers better than others, BUT we all get jacked.. Nobody, I've ever meet, can make a call in changing wind to within 1mph if the did they'd win every long range contest they ever entered, even then... thats why things like SD get buried in the noise.

I hear you.
...but, if it is near impossible, then how is it that 1000 yard benchesters and F-class guys are able to hold the 10 ring... much less the X-ring?

 

[LRShooter101]

. . . It just is so much more detailed than what we have when shooting sans LADAR. Oh, and LADAR is now on the well funded boats. . . .

Pretty sure you mean "LIDAR"
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lidar+wind

Good News, with all of the interest in Wind Farms, the demand for smaller more economical units is growing exponentially.

Bad News, DARPA and others have been trying for many years to come up with something but have not had any real luck yet.

Applied Ballistics has also been working on it.

Fingers Crossed!

 

[LRShooter101]

I hear you.
...but, if it is near impossible, then how is it that 1000 yard benchesters and F-class guys are able to hold the 10 ring... much less the X-ring?

Near impossible:

- on a first shot, but that is why they usually have a couple of free sighters.

- in unstable and/or unpredictable conditions, but that is why they really have more time than they need, and can wait out a bad condition. That is also why the good shooters are constantly watching the shots on other targets for indicators. It also why they will “machine gun off” their rounds when there is a good condition.

- without solid indicators, but that is why they have flags, and will run spotting scopes to read mirage

Change or take-away those things (and others), and it would be near impossible!

 

[Diver160651]

Pretty sure you mean "LIDAR"
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lidar+wind

Good News, with all of the interest in Wind Farms, the demand for smaller more economical units is growing exponentially.

Bad News, DARPA and others have been trying for many years to come up with something but have not had any real luck yet.

Applied Ballistics has also been working on it.

Fingers Crossed!

Yes, I can not spell to save my life. They do have shipboard units already and now up to the hand held, http://www.oceanmedix.com/products/racers-edge-laser-wind-sensor-lws-by-catch-the-wind-inc.html

As you mentioned economical is the word..

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Near impossible:

- on a first shot, but that is why they usually have a couple of free sighters.

- without solid indicators, but that is why they have flags, and will run spotting scopes to read mirage

Change or take-away those things (and others), and it would be near impossible!

OK, now we are getting to what I see as a major limiting factor. By using flags and dust drifting and mirage they actually ARE reading the wind to within 1mph.

So what about the sighters?...What the sighters do is remove the biggest variable, and that is the math. Square range shooters take most of the math right out of the equation. They are reading pure wind.

-Field shooters estimate range (some more than others).
-They estimate the angle of the shot.
-They estimate the amount of drift that a certain wind imparts.
-They estimate wind direction.
-They estimate the wind they are seeing.
-They estimate the high and low limits of the wind bracket they are dealing with.

By taking care to be a bit more precise with all the math that goes into the equation before hand, a field shooter can immediately and dramatically increase the precision of his wind calls.

 

[Diver160651]

I hear you.
...but, if it is near impossible, then how is it that 1000 yard benchesters and F-class guys are able to hold the 10 ring... much less the X-ring?

OK, now we are getting to what I see as a major limiting factor. By using flags and dust drifting and mirage they actually ARE reading the wind to within 1mph.

So what about the sighters?...What the sighters do is remove the biggest variable, and that is the math. Square range shooters take most of the math right out of the equation.

-Field shooters estimate range (some more than others).
-They estimate the amount of drift that a certain wind imparts.
-They estimate wind direction.
-They estimate the wind they are seeing.
-They estimate the high and low limits of the wind bracket they are dealing with.

By taking care to be a bit more precise with all the math that goes into the equation before hand, a field shooter can immediately and dramatically increase the precision of his wind calls.

Have you ever been to an benchrest or F-class match?

They are NOT at all determining wind speed, but rather identifying similar conditions to where the sighters are marked. Thats an entirely different skill set. They get sighters before every record period.

The most interesting thing is the guys with big titles under there belt, wait for the conditions that appear to be the most repeatable, then send sighters (as mentioned by LRShooter) . These are often WAY off the X-ring, they send more sighter ONLY in that condition until they get the X.. They then generally stop. Less experienced guys keep sending rounds during most of the sighter periods and chase the wind.

Some times they'll find a similar period of wind and send one right after another to take advantage of a similar wind value, because the KNOW they can not read the wind to the degree you are focused on.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Have you ever been to an benchrest or F-class match?

They are NOT at all determining wind speed, but rather identifying similar conditions to where the sighters are marked. Thats an entirely different skill set. They get sighters before every record period.

The most interesting thing is the guys with big titles under there belt, wait for the conditions that appear to be the most repeatable, then send sighters (as mentioned by LRShooter) . These are often WAY off the X-ring, they send more sighter ONLY in that condition until they get the X.. They then generally stop. Less experienced guys keep sending rounds during most of the sighter periods and chase the wind.

Some times they'll find a similar period of wind and send one right after another to take advantage of a similar wind value, because the KNOW they can not read the wind to the degree you are focused on.

Nevertheless, the point still stands that the total accumulated error in the math, especially the wind direction, greatly decreases the probability of making a good call.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I would like to revisit the statement I made in post #5.

I said that calling the wind to within 1 mph in a 3-5mph crosswind is "no great trick". We weren't talking about some gusty, switching wind, or some evil fishtailing wind. The context the OP put forth in post #1 was a simple crosswind. I never declared that it can be done 100% of the time, but it is very doable. I still stand by that assertion.

I mean, if you don't want to believe that it is possible to do something as basic as that, then why are you even shooting that far? Are you satisfied just throwing a round (or rounds) away and then banging steel just to say you hit it? It doesn't take any wind reading skills at all to do that.

Is there anybody left that even cares about trying to hit a target with the first shot?

Also, I think that what I said, was wrongly interpreted to mean that hitting the target everytime at 1000yds was possible. That is not the case. With most rounds, a 1mph wind will move your round around 1moa maybe a bit less. So that moves the center of your group to the edge of a 2moa plate.

So, even if your rifle was shooting 1moa at 1000yds, you still have the potential for putting 50% of your shots off the edge of the steel, depending on where your round fell within the natural dispersion of the group. That, of course, is assuming that you did everything else perfectly.

 

[Diver160651]

I would like to revisit the statement I made in post #5.

I said that calling the wind to within 1 mph in a 3-5mph crosswind is "no great trick". We weren't talking about some gusty, switching wind, or some evil fishtailing wind. The context the OP put forth in post #1 was a simple crosswind. I never declared that it can be done 100% of the time, but it is very doable. I still stand by that assertion.

I mean, if you don't want to believe that it is possible to do something as basic as that, then why are you even shooting that far? Are you satisfied just throwing a round (or rounds) away and then banging steel just to say you hit it? It doesn't take any wind reading skills at all to do that.

Is there anybody left that even cares about trying to hit a target with the first shot?

Really? I'm not busting chops, but as you go, the more you're showing your cards..

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Really? I'm not busting chops, but you go, the more your showing your cards..

The only "cards" I've shown, is that I'm not a F-class shooter, or a benchrester. I never claimed to be. In fact, I've said in a few different posts that as of yet, I'm not a competitor at all (though I intend to shoot a couple of field matches within the next year)....and that I care about hitting stuff with the first shot if possible...if that is the charge, I'm guilty.

What I have done, is spend almost 20 years chasing these problems and being mentored by others who were doing this when I was in grade school. If you disagree with me on any of the techniques I've put forth, then tell me a better way, I'll try it.

 

[Diver160651]

Running a 6.5 139 scenar at 2750 has 9.1 inches of wind drift at 1000m in a 1mph crosswind.

Shooting an 18 inch plate and aiming for a centre punch hit if your wind call is more than 1mph out that's a miss!!!

Are you guys shooting 6.5 calling the wind within 1mph at 1000m???

Just a question.

The only "cards" I've shown, is that I'm not a F-class shooter, or a benchrester. I never claimed to be. In fact, I've said in a few different posts that as of yet, I'm not a competitor at all (though I intend to shoot a couple of field matches within the next year)....and that I care about hitting stuff with the first shot if possible...if that is the charge, I'm guilty.

What I have done, is spend almost 20 years chasing these problems and being mentored by others who were doing this when I was in grade school. If you disagree with me on any of the techniques I've put forth, then tell me a better way, I'll try it.

I am not disagreeing with how smart you might be etc.. People often overestimate their real-world abilities or expectations. If you want an example, I can post it, but rather leave it at that. I am not here to be a dick.

There are some super accomplished guys here and competing that can not out perform or match some of the things discussed.

 

[Diver160651]

Running a 6.5 139 scenar at 2750 has 9.1 inches of wind drift at 1000m in a 1mph crosswind.

Shooting an 18 inch plate and aiming for a centre punch hit if your wind call is more than 1mph out that's a miss!!!

Are you guys shooting 6.5 calling the wind within 1mph at 1000m???

Why would you index center if you suspected any wind?

@LRShooter101 gave a very detailed response on how he looks at the wind.. I am only adding indexing at a 30k view.

Depending on DA my 6.5 might get 1.5ml at 1k per the calculators yours looks to be about .2- So maybe But, lets say you have more or whatever, by cheating always into the wind you drastically increase you chances. Thats why you'll see a lot of us indexing on the plate but near an edge. Of course, as the wind pulls the index point further away and off the plate, you still want to create as much error budget as you can.

Note that your target is about .5; so you have about 5/10s to play with as long as you can identify the wind direction. In my case, over 3mph of error budget. Oh, and I can still miss with the best of them

 

[LRShooter101]

Why would you index center if you suspected any wind?

Depending on DA my 6.5 might get 1.5ml at 1k per the calculators yours looks to be about .2- So maybe But, lets say you have more or whatever, by cheating always into the wind you drastically increase you chances. Thats why you'll see a lot of us indexing on the plate but near an edge. Of course, as the wind pulls the index point further away and off the plate, you still want to create as much error budget as you can.

Note that your target is about .5; so you have about 5/10s to play with as long as you can identify the wind direction. In my case, over 3mph of error budget. Oh, and I can still wiss with the best of them

Not that I disagree, because I frequently do the same thing, however the strategy of indexing on the up wind/windward side of the target/plate is NOT without potential consequences!

This works well when you have a stable and predictable wind condition that is coming primarily from around 3 or 9 o’clock. As pointed out, if your speed estimation is off by a few mph, or if there is a slight increase in wind speed, then you should be OK (obviously depending on how large your margin of error can be). However, per my earlier comments, you have to be able to predict how long that wind condition will hold? You must be able to do that because if there is a decrease in speed, or a change in direction, then you can easily go from making good hits, to suddenly missing off of the up wind/windward side. Most shooters are worried about missing on the down wind/leeward side, however depending on the wind conditon(s) there may be just as much risk missing on the up wind/windward side. It comes down to your reading and prediction skillset telling you which one is most likely, or is the probability actually the same for both?

Can’t tell you how many times I have watched F-Class shooters using a up wind/windward side hold, making hits in the X-Ring and the right side of the 10-Ring, to all of a sudden see them hitting the 8-Ring & 9-Ring to the left side because they missed the wind let off or direction change coming.

Stable and predictable wind conditions from 3 or 9 o’clock work well by indexing on the up wind/windward side of the target/plate.

Unstable and unpredictable wind conditions, and conditions that are fishtailing/switching direction quickly, will actually do better with a center hold, as they will give you a margin of error in both directions.

Food for thougt! Also, not trying to say what anyone is or is not doing, just trying to further clarify things from my point.

 

[Diver160651]

Not that I disagree, because I frequently do the same thing, however the strategy of indexing on the up wind/windward side of the target/plate is NOT without potential consequences!

This works well when you have a stable and predictable wind condition that is coming primarily from around 3 or 9 o’clock. As pointed out, if your speed estimation is off by a few mph, or if there is a slight increase in wind speed, then you should be OK (obviously depending on how large your margin of error can be). However, per my earlier comments, you have to be able to predict how long that wind condition will hold? You must be able to do that because if there is a decrease in speed, or a change in direction, then you can easily go from making good hits, to suddenly missing off of the up wind/windward side. Most shooters are worried about missing on the down wind/leeward side, however depending on the wind conditon(s) there may be just as much risk missing on the up wind/windward side. It comes down to your reading and prediction skillset telling you which one is most likely, or is the probability actually the same for both?

Can’t tell you how many times I have watched F-Class shooters using a up wind/windward side hold, making hits in the X-Ring and the right side of the 10-Ring, to all of a sudden see them hitting the 8-Ring & 9-Ring to the left side because they missed the wind let off or direction change coming.

Stable and predictable wind conditions from 3 or 9 o’clock work well by indexing on the up wind/windward side of the target/plate.

Unstable and unpredictable wind conditions, and conditions that are fishtailing/switching direction quickly, will actually do better with a center hold, as they will give you a margin of error in both directions.

Food for thougt! Also, not trying to say what anyone is or is not doing, just trying to further clarify things from my point.

I do not think we are saying anything different.

You did a good job of outlining the wind plan. I only wanted to add error budgeting to the conversation that goes along with what you had said. Yes, error budgeting does little or even can not be done, if you don’t have a solid plan for the wind. It isn't simply holding into the wind or the edge of a plate. I tried to use the simplest of examples.

I didn’t include much detail because the error budget is different for each size target, distance, different for every value or switching, sometimes we are way off the plate, others dead center. As you know, understanding the error budget is only part of the strategy, it shrinks and grows once we have a wind plan.

I thought it was an important concept to add to your discussion of a wind plan because of the way the OP was looking at 1mph causing him to miss a .5 mil target.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[pitdog85]

Why would you index center if you suspected any wind?

Note that your target is about .5; so you have about 5/10s to play with as long as you can identify the wind direction. In my case, over 3mph of error budget. Oh, and I can still miss with the best of them

Diver I was following up until this last part you lost me a bit. My target is 18 inches or 45cm (I work in metric mostly but I realise most people reading this are in the US) at 1000m (1093 yards) I'm not sure what you mean my target is .5 and 5/10s to play with?

 

[Diver160651]

Diver I was following up until this last part you lost me a bit. My target is 18 inches or 45cm (I work in metric mostly but I realise most people reading this are in the US) at 1000m (1093 yards) I'm not sure what you mean my target is .5 and 5/10s to play with?

Sorry, comunication is not my strength.

I was assuming 1000y, is so, 1 mil 36" or .5mils 18". So using .5, 5/10ths of a mil and 1/2 mil, are all the same. I think I just used the none broken down fraction for emphasis. Either way, I prove every day how poorly I type.

All I was trying to illustrate is to think of the total width of the target in managing the error budget and wind plan. Try not to become micro focused on the parts left and right even though they do indeed matter. If your fast with understanding the error budget, you'll have a much better chance of sending a round in the predictions you make as LRShooter pointed out.

I've seen super smart guys with analysis paralysis, miss wind windows.

Yes that damn x ring for F-class is what 5 crazy inches? But has anyone in the world shot a 200 20x in wind?

edited to add: ^ @ 1K

 

[LRShooter101]

Diver160651 - no worries, all is well, and yes we are more or less talking about the same things in the same manner.

In regards to your 200-20X, yes it has been done multiple times at closer ranges, some examples:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/12/14/2017-f-class-mid-range-national-championships-results/
I am not aware of a 200-20X at 1,000 yards, but I know that there have been multiple 200s with X counts up to 18.


Not trying to cause any grief with anyone posting here, but there is a lot of talk about wind reading in a lot of different applications going on here, and it is very important IMHO to realize that what works well for one application, may fail miserably for another.

When it comes to applications:

- Square Range versus Real World: The Square Range will obviously be much easier. Terrain should not be a major factor, and there will typically be good man made and/or natural indicators to read. Go to the Real World and that can change drastically with terrain being a major player, and little to no reliable indicators. Starting on a Square Range is good, because it can help you to eliminate and/or control the variables, which makes it easier to learn. However, if you are going to shoot in the Real World, you will have get there eventually in your training, and develop skills that you would never really use or need on a Square Range.

- Competition versus Life & Death: As pointed out, there is a time a place where you are going to get some “freebies” in Competition to figure things out, and there is a time and place where a first round hit for a Life or Death shot is the only option. Both applications obviously take very different techniques/strategies.

- Closer Range versus Longer Range: Your required depth of expertise and degree of precision obviously goes up as the range increases. You can have a limited skillset, have some degree of error, and still make hits at closer ranges. That same skillset, could result in nothing but misses at longer ranges.

- Sub MOA Precision versus MOA or Better Precision: Just like Range, this one requires a very in-depth skillset and higher degree of execution to succeed in the Sub MOA Precision applications. Likewise shooters who succeed on MOA or Better Precision applications, can fail miserably when trying to transition to Sub MOA because their skillset depth and degree of execution has not been developed enough.

As a LE Sniper, my skillset depth and degree of execution must be very high in terms of Real World, Life or Death, and Sub MOA Precision. However, as a Long-Range F-Class Shooter, my skillset depth and degree of execution must be very high in terms of Longer Range and Sub MOA Precision. The skills and techniques that I must use and refine, do not necessarily translate effectively across all applications.

Sorry for getting into the weeds, but probably not also getting into enough detail, hopefully there is some benefit in it somewhere? If it is just an incoherent mess, please let me know if I can clarify anything more specifically?

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I shoot NRA Highpower, Long Range, and now I shoot PRS and Palma stuff for fun. I was good enough at one point to make it on a few winning teams. It's worth paying attention how everyone else does it. This is a response I wrote to a similar question. I'll put new stuff that I am adding to it in italics. There are a lot of different ways to come up with your best educated guess.

Strong Wind (15mph)

I stole the idea from a data-sheet for the "British Wind" table which was for 7.62 which basically was a strong wind will move a bullet 1 MOA per 100 yards. So it was 100=1 200=2 300=3 etc. It's something I learned when I shot M14s for fun. I converted the idea to apply for Mils and 6.5mm bullets. Basically, I count by 2s from 100-300, and then by 3s out to 1000, and by .4s after that. I am also fairly certain that a couple of different professional instructors teach similar methods.

(I also really like the 6mph Method highlighted earlier here as well. That's pretty smart)

The whole purpose of the exercise isn't necessarily to give you a direct output, but more to directly visualize how much your bullet is going to be moved. The idea is to take your strong wind as your benchmark and then reduce those values to 1/2 and 1/4 for a Medium, and Light wind.

A 15 mph wind is going to be a nice day at the beach, or just fast enough to make the Georgia heat actually pleasant. Also according to the Beaufort scale, it will raise dust and paper, so it's probably also going to be the point where you start putting an ammo box on your match-book to keep things from blowing away.

A 7 mph wind is right about where leaves of trees and grass should be in constant motion. It's also the point where the gnats have gone away 20 minutes ago but you haven't noticed.

A 3 mph wind is where you can feel it, and you are wondering why the gnats are still there, and why are there even gnats in the first place. It will also move grass and smoke, but it might be difficult to determine direction.

Sorry, I was just remembering all the gnats at the last match I shot.

Wind Bitch Method

Working with other shooters is a huge advantage. Good shooters tend to group together because they know it gives them an edge. Having the equivalent of a Highmaster shooter come off the firing line and tell you what he just used for wind is a huge advantage. When I am actually trying to be good at a match, I will try to squad with good shooters because the information I get from watching good shooters shoot is immediately valuable.

If the match allows for it, I will try to watch someone shoot through a spotting scope, and then ask them what they used for wind. It helps confirm or deny the wind plan that I would have came up with if I was shooting all alone, or didn't have someone to use as a wind dummy.

Databook

I've moved away from keeping meticulous data at matches due to laziness. However, it is something that I am going to start doing again because I think that it gives you a huge edge in collecting your thoughts, preparation, and self-reflection. Writing things down on paper in a format that is easy to come back to can pay off huge dividends when it comes to breaking the learning curve. Attached is a picture of a generic UKD datasheet that we used to use. It's basically an adaptation of Highpower. It doesn't have to always be filled all the way out.

All of the stuff on top is basic information that should be familiar. This is part of our planning phase for a stage. In our target box, I wrote IPSC, but I also sometimes draw the shape of the target.

In the remarks section, I put basic info about the course of fire, and that the previous shooter used 2 mils of wind at 1200 and that it was off to the right.

There is an elevation and windage box. I write in all the data I intend to use for the stage, and then any corrections I made. In this case, my data past 900 wasn't correct for elevation, so I put in that I basically had to hold .3 to .5 low to be on targets past 900.

I also had one of my friends watch my trace through his spotting scope so I could have some information on where my shots were going. If I don't have friends, I try to ask the spotter things like "Was I hitting high or low?" "Where were my misses?" Usually most will give you their best assessment and that gives you information to go off of.

At the very bottom is final notes. It says that the wind changed to half it's value, and that I need to make sure to true data past 1000. It's basically a final recap of my thoughts immediately coming off the line.

So what other advantages does the databook give me? It allows me to mentally prepare for the next match by re-shooting this one. Chances are if you shoot a decent bit, you are going to shoot at the same venue more than once, and the stages are going to be similar. I can look at my notes on Alabama Precision or Core and have an idea of what would make my next match better. I know that in Alabama, I would prefer to shoot the longest range stages first because the wind can get really bad in the afternoon. I know that at Core I will probably bust time on the shoot house stage, and that focusing on getting good shots is the best course of action for me. I also know that at Core, I have done pretty well on the rocks stage by just putting the Gamechanger bag on everything, and held slightly low the last time I shot, and it worked pretty well.

3 To A Mound

One of the idiosyncrasies of International Shooting is that they do not neccesarily have relays in Known Distance Matches, but instead will squad 3 shooters on the same firing point and have them shoot one after the other. This is different than in the United States because we usually shoot 1 shooter per target and then switch out the shooter. For example in the United States, you might get 20 minutes to fire 20 shots; whereas in the UK you and 2 other people are going to get 60 minutes to fire 20 shots a piece. This means that overseas you cannot wait for a condition that you like and then shoot fast through it; You are going to be on the firing line considerably longer and forced to shoot through conditions that you do not want to.

Great Britain typically does very well in International Long Range matches because of the way they are forced to train. Because their shooters have more time on the line, they have more time to write down information. After they fire a shot, they will plot their call, as well as the windage they used, and the windage they should have used. And then they'll also plot a graph of the wind they should have used because this can help them recognize trends and prevailing conditions. They might recognize that if they just leave 2.5 MOA on the rifle, they wouldn't drop any points at all because the high and low values will bracket the 10 ring.

Building Up and Letting Off

Another technique that can be applied on Known Distance Ranges and to a lesser extent, on Field Ranges, is recognizing the wind trends. Picture this; we are at a 1000 yard match, the wind is coming from roughly our 10-o clock, but we notice that it really fluctuates to almost a 1130...not quite 12. It's about lunch time at Camp Perry, so the wind is pretty close to what it's going to be for the rest of the day. There will be some pick-ups and let offs as well, but our main concern is going to be that value change.

Everyone imagines that a dead center X is the ideal shot; that's not always true. As we start out our string of fire, we notice that we have a wind pretty close to it's max value, and that if anything is going to happen in the next 20 minutes, it is probably going to slowly switch from a 10 o clock wind to an almost 12 o clock wind.

As we start our string we are going to try to build the group on the right side of the 10 ring. We aren't trying to shoot center-x's, we are hedging our bets that if anything, there is going to be a value change towards the left side, and as we start seeing this it's going to still keep our shots closer to the center. That doesn't mean we stop calling wind, but rather that we recognize that our most likely cause of heartache is going to be that value change, and we are going to try to correct for it when we can, but we know that we cannot always be perfect, so having that extra space to the left for when the wind becomes effectively less is going to save us a few 9's, and possibly the heartache 7 or 8.

The opposite could be true if you were expecting the wind value to increase from your start point. If you take your sighter shots in the low end of the condition you might want to build into the wind so that as the value or velocity increases, your extreme shots are not pushed out. However typically it's not a rapid velocity increase that gets shooters, it's either a rapid drop, or a value change.

Target Reference Method

This goes back to the data-book, and writing everything down for field matches. Targets at known distances are going to have known dimensions. The target size in centimeters or inches isn't important; knowing how wide the target is in miles per hour of wind is important though. Let's use 2 quick examples from PRS.

Example 1 is the PRS Skills Barricade Stage. If I recall correctly, it's a 10 inch target at 400 yards. If I hold dead center, I have 5 inches of left or right leeway, or for the sake of simple math, about 1 MOA because it's a round target and we are probably not going to be perfectly centered for elevation, and it's a round target. And it keeps our math simple. At 400 yards, my generic 6.5 Creedmoor load is going to take 6 miles per hour of wind to move it off the plate. In theory; If I know nothing about the wind, I can shoot in the center of the target with good fundamentals and hit every time if the wind is coming from any direction at 6 miles per hour or less! Guess what happens if we have even a slight bit of awareness and we can tell a direction? Our error space just effectively doubled to 8 inches (We are still saying it's 8 because it's a round target so anything above or below dead center will be less than 10 inches across.) If we have a pretty steady wind from the left (because we think it's greater than 6.) We can still hold the left edge of the plate, and it can go from anywhere between 6 to 18 miles per hour and we should still be on the plate with good fundamentals.

Of course PRS forces the position to be less than perfectly stable, so we are not always going to hit, and it makes sense to call the wind as precisely as possible, so for instance, in a 6 mile per hour wind that I am going to hold the edge of the plate, and mentally tell myself "Do not break anything to the right of the edge", If I am going to break a less than stellar shot, I am going to try to break it opposite of the direction that I think the wind is going to go. This is a practical application of Building Up and Letting Off.

Example 2 is a Long Range Stage at Alabama Precision. They have a Walk-it-Out type stage where you shoot at full IPSCs at 800-1200 yards from prone. We have a more stable position on more challenging targets. If I recall, that is a 20 inch wide target. For the sake of simplicity, I'll use 800 and 1200 yards as my reference targets. In a real match I would probably consider 800 1000 and 1200.

At 800 yards, it is going to take a 4 mile per hour wind to move us off of the target if we aim center. If we aim on an edge of the target, we only have to be accurate to within 8 miles per hour to score a hit as long as we know a direction. (We might actually reduce our wind reading brackets to 3mph and 6mph to compensate for errors from group size) We have a lot of error space to work with; especially at 800 yards. Anything between 1mph to 8mph and we could theoretically hold the edge of the target. Even if we have wind that is greater than the target width, knowing how wide the target is in mile-per-hour of wind can be a helpful reference point.

What we are going to do is try to land our easy hits on our 800 yard target and get wind confirmation off of that. Ideally, we want to have a blank target, and be able to watch our trace through our scope. We are going to shoot our 800 yard target and try to quickly gather data to use on our far targets. Where did the bullet impact? Did you see the trace? Did the target twist to the right? Did it twist to the left? All can be used as indicators.

Hopefully we land a shot on the target on our first go and it tells us if we over or under doped the wind, and we can make corrections from there. If we have a wind from the left, and it hits the far right edge of center, we know that we under-doped the wind by roughly 4mph. If we hit left edge we under-doped by 4mph. If we hit right of center and even with the neck we are off by about 2mph. Off one edge or the other, and we have made significant errors and should make an aggressive correction.

Now let's look at our 1200 yard target. It's still 20 inches wide, but now it's going to only take a 3 mile per hour wind error to push us from the left edge to the right edge of the target. That is why we want to pay close attention to what our refined wind-call is at those closer range targets because chances are the wind is going to be very similar. You might need to do some quick mental math and add that +/- 4 mph from your previous distances.

 

[bab029]

Target size in MPH of Wind deflection....I like that.

*Shuffles off to build a quick reference card....

 

[Clearlight]

As you mention BlatBlat , ‘ wind bitch’ is a favourite phrase of mine . Until I got banned for using
a Atlas bipod ( no , really ) , I used to shoot 500 and 1000 BR comps . I used to ask around who was
using whatever caliber and what bullet , to see who had similar wind value to me . Being able
pan around and see competitors shot markers at 1000 , or bullet holes at 500 was a huge
advantage .

 

[Hammer47]

My condolences.

Hey Skooks..........have another drink. Your credibility just took a shit.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Hey Skooks..........have another drink. Your credibility just took a shit.

That hurts my feelings.