Can someone help me understand 6mm fandom?

[BurnOut]

Okay, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm with this... but I really don't understand being a big fan of 6mm chamberings. It seems to me that if you're target shooting and simply looking to make hits, that projectiles in the .224 diameter offer better drag numbers (grain-for-grain), and if you're hunting and looking for terminal performance on game, projectiles in the 6.5mm diameter offer better options. I get the concept of "splitting the difference", but it really looks like in 6mm you end up with a compromise between 22 and 26 calibers that offers the some of the drawbacks of both, and none of the advantages of either.

Like, the best of the 6mm target projectiles aren't that much better than the best of the 22 caliber target projectiles, while being a bit heavier (and thus comparatively limiting velocity for a given powder charge), while the best of the 6mm hunting projectiles offer drag numbers on par with the lower end/lighter 26 caliber hunting projectiles, while being a bit lighter.

All of that said, a LOT of people who are undoubtedly smarter than I are fans of 6mm chamberings, so I am obviously not seeing something that they do. Any ideas on perspectives that I'm not seeing?

 

[Supersubes]

I’m sure someone will have a more nuanced view than me. It will probably involve better brass, a better balance of weight to BC than you described, spotting misses, better barrel life, better bullets. Nobody is lighting the world on fire with a .224v, but they’ve been doing that very thing with 6BR and its variants for a long time now.

 

[phlegethon]

Okay, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm with this... but I really don't understand being a big fan of 6mm chamberings. It seems to me that if you're target shooting and simply looking to make hits, that projectiles in the .224 diameter offer better drag numbers (grain-for-grain), and if you're hunting and looking for terminal performance on game, projectiles in the 6.5mm diameter offer better options. I get the concept of "splitting the difference", but it really looks like in 6mm you end up with a compromise between 22 and 26 calibers that offers the some of the drawbacks of both, and none of the advantages of either.

Like, the best of the 6mm target projectiles aren't that much better than the best of the 22 caliber target projectiles, while being a bit heavier (and thus comparatively limiting velocity for a given powder charge), while the best of the 6mm hunting projectiles offer drag numbers on par with the lower end/lighter 26 caliber hunting projectiles, while being a bit lighter.

All of that said, a LOT of people who are undoubtedly smarter than I are fans of 6mm chamberings, so I am obviously not seeing something that they do. Any ideas on perspectives that I'm not seeing?

Everything is a compromise. I could just as easily complain that my .50 BMG sits awkwardly between .338 and 20mm.

Seriously though, I think 6mm has come to dominate most target shooting for different reasons. In the distances for most PRS matches, it's the best balance between being large enough to spot impacts (the major problem with .224) yet not too much recoil (although maybe .25 will end up having a role here). I think you're right that 6.5 is better for hunting.

 

[2muchcowbell]

Okay, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm with this... but I really don't understand being a big fan of 6mm chamberings. It seems to me that if you're target shooting and simply looking to make hits, that projectiles in the .224 diameter offer better drag numbers (grain-for-grain), and if you're hunting and looking for terminal performance on game, projectiles in the 6.5mm diameter offer better options. I get the concept of "splitting the difference", but it really looks like in 6mm you end up with a compromise between 22 and 26 calibers that offers the some of the drawbacks of both, and none of the advantages of either.

Like, the best of the 6mm target projectiles aren't that much better than the best of the 22 caliber target projectiles, while being a bit heavier (and thus comparatively limiting velocity for a given powder charge), while the best of the 6mm hunting projectiles offer drag numbers on par with the lower end/lighter 26 caliber hunting projectiles, while being a bit lighter.

All of that said, a LOT of people who are undoubtedly smarter than I are fans of 6mm chamberings, so I am obviously not seeing something that they do. Any ideas on perspectives that I'm not seeing?

A lot of guys on here (myself included) like to participate in the PRS. There's a velocity cap of 3200 fps, so that sort of removes calibers like .22 Creedmoor from the running. The Berger 105 Hybrid (basically) everyone loves for their 6mms has a superior BC to the long .22 caliber bullets.

For PRS, the most important thing is to see hits/misses on target, then correct while on the clock. The low recoil of 6mm rounds allows the shooter to easily spot hits, even in unstable positions, and the high velocity of 6mm compared to 6.5 gives better drop characteristics inside...I haven't run the calcs, but pretty sure inside 800 yards, and I think performs *slightly* better in wind deflection.

 

[2muchcowbell]

I think you're right that 6.5 is better for hunting.

I agree here, 100%. It carries higher energy more efficiently, which explains why the military is going 6.5 Creedmoor instead of a 6mm-based cartridge.

I want a 7mm SAW for that exact reason, cuz I had hell spotting impacts with my 6 Creed past 1,200 yards. That extra oomph will be welcomed.

 

[Ledzep]

I can only speak for myself. Mostly referring to PRS/NRL style shooting.

.224 offerings are scary to me because they require fast twists and also produce fast speeds. As others have said, 3200 is the limit for competition so the velocity 'perk' has a cap. Anyway, by default you're pushing the edge of 300k RPM in a lot of situations which is a recipe for disaster (bullet blow ups) on hot days, especially as bore condition deteriorates. Also, smaller bores are typically more overbore, causing less barrel life (save for stuff like .223 or .223 AI, which comes with it's own potential for feeding issues). Where 6mm will cause minimal splash on long-ball targets, .224 is worse.

6mm I divide into 2 classes. Big (.243, .243AI, 6 creed, 6 comp match, etc.) and small (BR variants, ARC). GT kind of bridges the gap there. I don't like the big variants for the same reasons I don't go for .224 offerings. Poor barrel life, too much speed and heat. The mild 6's are appealing because of minimal recoil, enough velocity, enough BC, and enough mass on target to swing plates (most of the time). Impacts on steel are still minimal past about 800.

6.5mm has just enough recoil that in many positional stages, it can cause you not to see your impact location (which way did the plate swing, where did you hit dirt, etc..). Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of the 6.5mm for an all-around target/hunting caliber. Great BC, okay velocity, great splash/energy on target, great barrel life.

 

[dimar1492]

It appears that your thought process is derived solely from comparing BC numbers of the "best" bullets of each diameter.

When other factors are considered things are a little more clear. Recoil, terminal ballistics, ability to see impacts in less than favorable conditions, barrel life, inherent precision of the cartridges used....

The list goes on, and 6mm does a good job of doing several of these things well.

I assume you are referring to the popularity of the 6mm for PRS and similar applications.

The 6mm and especially the BR variants allow the use of some of the most inherently precise and consistent cartridges. Lower recoil compared to the 6.5s. Good barrel life.

Another interesting note, 6mms hold just about every group size and aggregate record from 100-1000yds.

The 6.5s may be better for an all around hunting rig and even have some advantages in field matches.

Just my take on the 6s

I look at guns and calibers like fishing rods and reels. There is no one fishing pole that is both ideal for catching largemouth bass and bluefin tuna. Every caliber is a compromise of some sort, but the 6mm and 6.5 do a lot very well.

 

[Potsy]

.22 Cal 88ELDM's are about $10 a hundred cheaper than 108ELDM's. Guessing that's about $200 over the life of the barrel. .22cal 95 Sierras are substantially higher than either Hornady, so that mitigates that argument somewhat.

I'm not convinced that a 6BR offers a huge advantage over my .22BR in "spotting" hits and misses. The 6.5's would have a pretty big leg up on both. But they will recoil more.

I guess one thing that plays in (and this is pretty much a long range newb talking), is that in terms of practicality, you're "only" shooting so far. How far out does a PRS match go? 1200, 1300 yards? I've yet to shoot one (damn 2020).

Right now, I've thought of going bigger, but I'm "only" shooting to 1,000 yards. This would have been a laughable statement for me just a couple years ago. Of course, I'm in Middle TN, my wind situation is pretty different from someone in Wyoming.

A .22 Creed flinging 95 Sierras (claimed .6G1, tracked pretty close to that in my .22BR) at 3,100 would be evil, but I'd never "need" what it offered and even PRS guys probably wouldn't on 90% of the shots they take.

I've done a lot of mental masturbating over it, and come to the conclusion that, particularly just out to 1,000 yards, they all do pretty much the same thing. It mostly just comes down to what you want, logistics, and making it fit your platform. Get a G1 B.C. over .5, crank it up somewhere over 2,700fps, then spend more time worrying about your scope.

Just my random thoughts......flame away........

 

[Newbie2020]

I love the Hide.

So to go ahead and over-complicate this by a newb, I googled "sectional density" and learned (maybe) it's kind of complimentary to b.c. and explains (maybe a little) what the other posters said about spotting hits and misses. It also (maybe) hints at why the 6mm whatevers are the current Goldilocks---just right.

If I can find a high s.d. bullet (weight relative to diameter) with a high b.c. ("slipperiness" of bullet shape---length relative to weight, pointy tip, boat tail), it will not only retain velocity and energy a longer ways while in flight, but will make a bigger splash on target or dust cloud on miss.

Couple that "perfect compromise s.d. + b.c." bullet with a sufficiently low recoil powder load to spot impacts, and you've got the "perfect" PRS/benchrest/F-class round---although maybe not the "perfect" hunting round.

But I'm still in kindergarten.

 

[dimar1492]

.22 Cal 88ELDM's are about $10 a hundred cheaper than 108ELDM's. Guessing that's about $200 over the life of the barrel. .22cal 95 Sierras are substantially higher than either Hornady, so that mitigates that argument somewhat.

I'm not convinced that a 6BR offers a huge advantage over my .22BR in "spotting" hits and misses. The 6.5's would have a pretty big leg up on both. But they will recoil more.

I guess one thing that plays in (and this is pretty much a long range newb talking), is that in terms of practicality, you're "only" shooting so far. How far out does a PRS match go? 1200, 1300 yards? I've yet to shoot one (damn 2020).

Right now, I've thought of going bigger, but I'm "only" shooting to 1,000 yards. This would have been a laughable statement for me just a couple years ago. Of course, I'm in Middle TN, my wind situation is pretty different from someone in Wyoming.

A .22 Creed flinging 95 Sierras (claimed .6G1, tracked pretty close to that in my .22BR) at 3,100 would be evil, but I'd never "need" what it offered and even PRS guys probably wouldn't on 90% of the shots they take.

I've done a lot of mental masturbating over it, and come to the conclusion that, particularly just out to 1,000 yards, they all do pretty much the same thing. It mostly just comes down to what you want, logistics, and making it fit your platform. Get a G1 B.C. over .5, crank it up somewhere over 2,700fps, then spend more time worrying about your scope.

Just my random thoughts......flame away........

A 22 creed? By the time you got a load developed, a practice session or two, and a match. Barrel is about toast. Sounds like a wicked varmint cartridge though.

Although, I suppose it's a preference thing. I did the 6 Creed thing some years ago. After I saw how fast they roast a barrel, I have to interests in traveling farther down the barrel burning scale.

 

[lash]

W

.22 Cal 88ELDM's are about $10 a hundred cheaper than 108ELDM's. Guessing that's about $200 over the life of the barrel. .22cal 95 Sierras are substantially higher than either Hornady, so that mitigates that argument somewhat.

I'm not convinced that a 6BR offers a huge advantage over my .22BR in "spotting" hits and misses. The 6.5's would have a pretty big leg up on both. But they will recoil more.

I guess one thing that plays in (and this is pretty much a long range newb talking), is that in terms of practicality, you're "only" shooting so far. How far out does a PRS match go? 1200, 1300 yards? I've yet to shoot one (damn 2020).

Right now, I've thought of going bigger, but I'm "only" shooting to 1,000 yards. This would have been a laughable statement for me just a couple years ago. Of course, I'm in Middle TN, my wind situation is pretty different from someone in Wyoming.

A .22 Creed flinging 95 Sierras (claimed .6G1, tracked pretty close to that in my .22BR) at 3,100 would be evil, but I'd never "need" what it offered and even PRS guys probably wouldn't on 90% of the shots they take.

I've done a lot of mental masturbating over it, and come to the conclusion that, particularly just out to 1,000 yards, they all do pretty much the same thing. It mostly just comes down to what you want, logistics, and making it fit your platform. Get a G1 B.C. over .5, crank it up somewhere over 2,700fps, then spend more time worrying about your scope.

Just my random thoughts......flame away........

Most of what you are saying is correct, but go ahead and shoot a couple PRS matches where other people are responsible for spotting your hits and misses under time pressure. Typical stages require 8-10 shots in about 90 seconds. On distant targets, even direct hits on large steel are hard to impossible to see, especially if they are not freshly painted like is typically the case in a match. Sometimes targets are all grey and if you don’t make them move then a hit is hard to verify.

Then come back and let us know if you still feel the same way about your .22.

 

[BurnOut]

A lot of guys on here (myself included) like to participate in the PRS. There's a velocity cap of 3200 fps, so that sort of removes calibers like .22 Creedmoor from the running. The Berger 105 Hybrid (basically) everyone loves for their 6mms has a superior BC to the long .22 caliber bullets.

For PRS, the most important thing is to see hits/misses on target, then correct while on the clock. The low recoil of 6mm rounds allows the shooter to easily spot hits, even in unstable positions, and the high velocity of 6mm compared to 6.5 gives better drop characteristics inside...I haven't run the calcs, but pretty sure inside 800 yards, and I think performs *slightly* better in wind deflection.

Ah, the 3200 FPS cap is something that I was missing... because even with the heaviest projectiles, I'm guessing that something like 22 Creedmoor can break that barrier quite easily (and in fact would need to in order to be used to its full potential). As for the concepts of sectional density and spotting hits/misses, I understand those as well (bigger bullet = bigger impact on target, whatever that target is).

What I am gathering is that basically, 6mm chamberings are kind of in the sweet spot of shootability, drag numbers, and impact on target. Would that be an accurate statement?

 

[2muchcowbell]

Ah, the 3200 FPS cap is something that I was missing... because even with the heaviest projectiles, I'm guessing that something like 22 Creedmoor can break that barrier quite easily (and in fact would need to in order to be used to its full potential). As for the concepts of sectional density and spotting hits/misses, I understand those as well (bigger bullet = bigger impact on target, whatever that target is).

What I am gathering is that basically, 6mm chamberings are kind of in the sweet spot of shootability, drag numbers, and impact on target. Would that be an accurate statement?

I'd say so, at least for the PRS-style shooting (and benchrest, too, I think) disciplines.

 

[supercorndogs]

Because there aren't enough companies making high B.C bullets for the quarter bore yet. 6mm is just a little too small, and the 6.5mm, its just a little too big.

 

[phlegethon]

the "perfect" PRS/benchrest/F-class round---although maybe not the "perfect" hunting round.

Again, it depends on distance and discipline. Hunting is obviously very dependent on animal size. F-class is dominated by 7mm, at least in long range open class, and for thousand yard benchrest 6.5x47 and 300 WSM are still highly competitive. But yes, 300-800 is very well suited to 6mm.

 

[BadAccountant]

Okay, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm with this... but I really don't understand being a big fan of 6mm chamberings. It seems to me that if you're target shooting and simply looking to make hits, that projectiles in the .224 diameter offer better drag numbers (grain-for-grain), and if you're hunting and looking for terminal performance on game, projectiles in the 6.5mm diameter offer better options. I get the concept of "splitting the difference", but it really looks like in 6mm you end up with a compromise between 22 and 26 calibers that offers the some of the drawbacks of both, and none of the advantages of either.

Like, the best of the 6mm target projectiles aren't that much better than the best of the 22 caliber target projectiles, while being a bit heavier (and thus comparatively limiting velocity for a given powder charge), while the best of the 6mm hunting projectiles offer drag numbers on par with the lower end/lighter 26 caliber hunting projectiles, while being a bit lighter.

All of that said, a LOT of people who are undoubtedly smarter than I are fans of 6mm chamberings, so I am obviously not seeing something that they do. Any ideas on perspectives that I'm not seeing?

.224 projectiles don't perform nearly as well over distance as the result of a combination of factors.

6mm projectiles are heavier but can still be accelerated to excellent velocities with a wide range of powders from a non magnum short action (or even smaller) case. Any 6mm case derivative of a .30 BR, .308, 6.5 CM, or even a 6.5 Grendel - with all of the accompanying powder permutations - seems to work well.

Do a quick side-by-side G7 comparison between a .224 projectile and a 6mm, and the differences start to show in large part because of the increase in mass of 6mm bullets. G7 form factor for a VLD style bullet will show a greater BC in large part because of mass.

Mass matters in the wind. A heavier bullet will perform better in the wind, and 6mm bullets are ideal as competition rounds because of the high velocities attainable with a standard case, the low recoil, flat trajectory, and the fact that impacts and misses can more easily be spotted by the shooter in the absence of a spotter. All of those make a great argument for the 6mm.

6.5s are great, too, and with the right brake on a gun to facilitate spotting your own impacts, you can hang with the 6mms. However, virtually none of the top PRS shooters are shooting one.

 

[steve123]

What they said^^^^^^^^^^

The trends in PRS and NRL type matches over the years have swung to the 6mmBR variants for the "balance" they offer since, like mentioned, there's always compromises. There is no more precise cartridges from 300Y out to 1000Y, and with crazy low ES.

I thought I'd try 88's in a 223AI and got bit again. How?? those bullets started started blowing up 300 rounds into the new barrel. I sold it.

6.5's have just enough recoil to be getting hard to manage. Not bad, but... and of course there's something to be said for high BC. People have been complaining about the 147's blowing up so here we go again - long bullets. If a guy could tote around a 40lb rifle and shoot 140's at 3200 fps....

With the bigger 6's it gets really annoying, and stressful, knowing that by 1200 rounds you better have another barrel in the que. Gonna be worse with a big 22 cal, maybe same done in a 22BR variant.

I seriously wouldn't mind trying a 25BR AI with Blackjacks as my compromise. Sometimes 6mmBR at the longer distances does that 308thing in the wind. Slightly more recoil but less drift at distance and better barrel life.

 

[supercorndogs]

.25 B.R {Bi-curious Rhino} The next big thing. You heard it, you can't un hear it.

 

[BadAccountant]

What they said^^^^^^^^^^

The trends in PRS and NRL type matches over the years have swung to the 6mmBR variants for the "balance" they offer since, like mentioned, there's always compromises. There is no more precise cartridges from 300Y out to 1000Y, and with crazy low ES.

I thought I'd try 88's in a 223AI and got bit again. How?? those bullets started started blowing up 300 rounds into the new barrel. I sold it.

6.5's have just enough recoil to be getting hard to manage. Not bad, but... and of course there's something to be said for high BC. People have been complaining about the 147's blowing up so here we go again - long bullets. If a guy could tote around a 40lb rifle and shoot 140's at 3200 fps....

With the bigger 6's it gets really annoying, and stressful, knowing that by 1200 rounds you better have another barrel in the que. Gonna be worse with a big 22 cal, maybe same done in a 22BR variant.

I seriously wouldn't mind trying a 25BR AI with Blackjacks as my compromise. Sometimes 6mmBR at the longer distances does that 308thing in the wind. Slightly more recoil but less drift at distance and better barrel life.

This is a great point. The uber-fast twist rates of 22 bores means that any imperfection in the barrel - from a bad barrel to a torched out throat - means you run the risk of seeing little puffs of copper and lead mid flight.

The other problem is the exact opposite in that some twist rates are too slow for heavy .224 bullets. Finding a 1:7 blank is extremely easy and cheap because a 1:7 twist is the standard twist for most AR15 barrel blanks. Manufacturers have a logistical and cost incentive to slap a 1:7 twist barrel on a gun and sell it to an eager customer itching in the pants to shoot some heavy .224 bullets. It doesn't always work the way people want, and while bullet manufacturers have moved mountains recently revising their ogive shapes and bearing surfaces to make it work out of a 1:7, 6mm offers less uncertainty.

Put a 105 on top of 30 gr. of Varget in a 6BR case and go shoot.

 

[b6graham]

if berger made a hybrid or lrht in the 95ish grain area you might see some people switch

the 95 SMKs perform well and don't explode like eldm (of all caliber and weight)

energy wise at 3150 (very easy from a 22LRV/22Creed) it's basically the same as a 105/109

but barrel life likely less for PRS matches compared to a 6Creed though for hunting/varmint it will be longer

 

[supercorndogs]

What they said^^^^^^^^^^

The trends in PRS and NRL type matches over the years have swung to the 6mmBR variants for the "balance" they offer since, like mentioned, there's always compromises. There is no more precise cartridges from 300Y out to 1000Y, and with crazy low ES.

I thought I'd try 88's in a 223AI and got bit again. How?? those bullets started started blowing up 300 rounds into the new barrel. I sold it.

6.5's have just enough recoil to be getting hard to manage. Not bad, but... and of course there's something to be said for high BC. People have been complaining about the 147's blowing up so here we go again - long bullets. If a guy could tote around a 40lb rifle and shoot 140's at 3200 fps....

With the bigger 6's it gets really annoying, and stressful, knowing that by 1200 rounds you better have another barrel in the que. Gonna be worse with a big 22 cal, maybe same done in a 22BR variant.

I seriously wouldn't mind trying a 25BR AI with Blackjacks as my compromise. Sometimes 6mmBR at the longer distances does that 308thing in the wind. Slightly more recoil but less drift at distance and better barrel life.

What twist and velocity was the 223AI giving you problems?

 

[rookie7]

A 22 creed? By the time you got a load developed, a practice session or two, and a match. Barrel is about toast. Sounds like a wicked varmint cartridge though.

Although, I suppose it's a preference thing. I did the 6 Creed thing some years ago. After I saw how fast they roast a barrel, I have to interests in traveling farther down the barrel burning scale.

So what cartridge did you go with after leaving the 6 creed?

 

[LawnMM]

Don't remember who the interview was on but it captured this curiosity perfectly:

Interviewer: You're a champion shooter, an accomplished marksman, how do you do it? I can't understand how you got to be such an impressive shot?

Shooter: Fire 10k rounds a year worth of practice ammo and you'll figure it out.

If you want to understand why people shoot 6mm's try shooting a match with something else, you'll figure it out.

 

[Potsy]

Not had any ELD blowups yet, but I'm only around 400 rounds in.

I have shot a few long range steel matches and, at 1,000 yards, those 18" gongs are pretty hard to move, and, I'll agree, a fresh coat of paint helps. That said (we spot for each other through our rifle scopes), even the 6.5 Creed guys seem struggle that far out with that heavy gong. I did shoot next to a guy last time running a .284 and 180's, no trouble with that one .

For S&G's, I compared a Sierra 95 (.22) and a Berger 105 Hybrid Hunter (it had the highest G7 of any of the 105's). Ran them both at 2850fps (95's shot well out of my .22BR at that speed). Granted, there's no G7 B.C. listed on Sierras site, but their .6G1 worked pretty well for my dope on the few that I shot, still, it may have given it somewhat of an advantage on Bergers calculator. 1800ASL, btw.

I also compared Sectional Density. Someone mentioned that as a factor for comparing splash, and that sounds plausible. All the numbers came off their websites. I'm sure someone is breaking 2,850fps in their 6 BR. That's cool too.

95SMK
S.D.: .270
10MPH 90deg. wind at 1000 yards: 1.77 mils
Velocity at 1000 yards: 1,593fps

105 Berger
S.D.: .254
10MPH 90deg wind at 1000 yards: 1.98 mils
Velocity at 1000 yards: 1,494fps

The Berger beats my 88's by just a bit on wind (2.05 for the 88) and speed (1,424 at 1,000).

I'm sure someone will want to argue the numbers. That'd be understandable, as that's what we do. I love my .22 BR. I'm still amazed that something that quiet (suppressed) and that recoil-less can hit stuff 1,000 yards away. It's crazy.

I'll admit that the 6BR is probably the easy button, and if ADG had been making 6 Dasher brass at the time, my 'Bart might have different writing on the side..........

 

[Gustav7]

if berger made a hybrid or lrht in the 95ish grain area you might see some people switch

the 95 SMKs perform well and don't explode like eldm (of all caliber and weight)

energy wise at 3150 (very easy from a 22LRV/22Creed) it's basically the same as a 105/109

but barrel life likely less for PRS matches compared to a 6Creed though for hunting/varmint it will be longer

On the most Berger No BS BC podcasts Frank put together with Bryan and Emil, they talk about some of the issues regarding stretching .223 into the 85+ gr bullet weight.

Basically, anything over about 85-88gr bullet becomes extremely hard to not only make the bullet consistent and strong enough, but also make the barrel with enough twist to stabilize, but not too much twist you blow the bullet up. Bryan said that anything under 7 twist gets very difficult to do well, and stabilize the bullet. And any bullet over 85ish grains gets super hard to make well, because of how damn long the bullet is. Apparently that why Berger made the 85.5gr fullbore and capped it there...according to the podcast.

So that makes a 90 class .224 bullet hard to load for consistently and takes away any thought of going even heavier.

 

[308pirate]

Anyone who thinks 224 diameter rifle bullets are ballistically the equal of 243 diameter bullets is smoking crack.

 

[b6graham]

On the most Berger No BS BC podcasts Frank put together with Bryan and Emil, they talk about some of the issues regarding stretching .223 into the 85+ gr bullet weight.

Basically, anything over about 85-88gr bullet becomes extremely hard to not only make the bullet consistent and strong enough, but also make the barrel with enough twist to stabilize, but not too much twist you blow the bullet up. Bryan said that anything under 7 twist gets very difficult to do well, and stabilize the bullet. And any bullet over 85ish grains gets super hard to make well, because of how damn long the bullet is. Apparently that why Berger made the 85.5gr fullbore and capped it there...according to the podcast.

So that makes a 90 class .224 bullet hard to load for consistently and takes away any thought of going even heavier.

i've listened to it. and understand their opinion on it. which is likely why they're going after the quarter bore(131 ace)

 

[phlegethon]

For S&G's, I compared a Sierra 95 (.22) and a Berger 105 Hybrid Hunter (it had the highest G7 of any of the 105's).

You are definitely comparing apples to oranges though. If you scale the mass of each bullet by the caliber cubed, you see that the following are equivalent:
.224 85 grain
.243 112 grain
.264 140 grain
.284 180 grain

so the beloved 105 hybrid is actually not very heavy for caliber, while the 95 SMK is way off the chart.

edit: a 95 grain .224 bullet scales roughly to a 122 grain 6mm or a 250 grain .308.

 

[Newbie2020]

^^^^^I really like that comparison.

 

[Forward543]

I have, and do shoot .22 and 6mm in competition. I like speeds at 3k or under for barrel life, recoil, spotting misses, and ease of loading. I get far more feedback from a 105 than a 88, past 800 yards. I am not against a 6.5 either, but shoot with a can, and lower recoil is the king. Any way you cut it, it takes volume of rounds to notice differences and likely you will pick your own pony and ride that shit into the ground.
You will get more points if you hit more targets.

 

[dimar1492]

So what cartridge did you go with after leaving the 6 creed?

For 6mm I tried Dasher, BRA, and 6XC. I like the BRA over the Dasher because of the ease of fireforming. You can load 6BR right out of the box and start shooting.

As for the 6XC, I know it's not a whole lot different on performance and barrel wear compared to the 6 Creed. But I consider it my threshold for what I'm willing to deal with barrel wear wise. I also found the XC to be very consistent throughout the life of the barrel.

I may pull my barrels earlier than some, but I see about 300 to 400 more rounds of premium barrel life in the XC compared to the Creed using the same powder.

 

[steve123]

What twist and velocity was the 223AI giving you problems?

A 7 twist, 6 groove at 28" with a mild load going 2814 fps. The barrel never even got hot, it's a single shot. I even kept the barrel clean, no more than 50 rounds before I cleaned it. 2 different lot numbers I tried as well.

The 75 eldm work fine.

 

[b6graham]

A 7 twist, 6 groove at 28" with a mild load going 2814 fps. The barrel never even got hot, it's a single shot. I even kept the barrel clean, no more than 50 rounds before I cleaned it. 2 different lot numbers I tried as well.

The 75 eldm work fine.

88s blow up nothing new. See 147 and 180 as well

 

[Dthomas3523]

Didn’t read all the replies as it’s pretty simple (probably restating stuff):

With the 3200 fps cap (and possibly without) 6mm is the lowest recoiling round in which you can see all your impacts/misses (or almost every one). You will see a very noticeable recoil decrease from 6.5 and still see all your shots.

Once you move into .224 bullets, you won’t see your misses/impacts enough to justify the small reduction in recoil from 6mm.

 

[steve123]

88s blow up nothing new. See 147 and 180 as well

Yep. I had this barrel put on just before people started discovering 88's blowing up. But the F-class guys already knew the 90 Bergers would.

I learned about the other heavies as I read here and on other sites.

I did a 20x47L to use the 55gr Bergers and had bullets blowing up about 250 rounds in so I should have known better but I guess I'm a slow learner.

 

[RFutch]

Yep. I had this barrel put on just before people started discovering 88's blowing up. But the F-class guys already knew the 90 Bergers would.

I learned about the other heavies as I read here and on other sites.

I did a 20x47L to use the 55gr Bergers and had bullets blowing up about 250 rounds in so I should have known better but I guess I'm a slow learner.

I don’t get it. You hear this about the ELDs but then you also hear about people like Brian Whalen who has shot over 5000 without an issue.

Is is just the luck of the draw with the barrel On whether or not it’s going to happen?

Im pushing 88s at 2880 with a Valkyrie bolt gun and after 500 rounds no problems yet thankfully.

 

[steve123]

Maybe a tolerance stack, slightly more constriction in the bore and a slightly larger diameter bullet, higher lands??. Combo of all??

Maybe the jackets were thicker in later lot numbers of bullets so they don't blow up as easily.

All i know is I'm not taking the chance anymore.

 

[eastexsteve]

Okay, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm with this... but I really don't understand being a big fan of 6mm chamberings.

Before there were all those really hot-rod .22 offerings, and the 6.5 CM, there was the .243 Winchester and the 6mm Remington. They were the kings of benchrest. There wasn't a .22 that could buck wind nearly as good. And, with sensible loads, barrels lasted a loooong time. And, accuracy was supreme. I still have a .243win rifle, and its' still a tack driver after almost 40 years. It's deadly on deer, and an 800 yd watermelon doesn't stand a chance. And, there is almost no appreciable recoil.

 

[mensajd]

High quality, high BC bullets at high velocities. What's not to love? Don't overthink this stuff...

 

[Potsy]

I never had any 88’s blow up that I’m aware of, though that’s what I’m going to start telling people when I miss.....

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Reviving an old thread. What an age we live in. When I was a teen getting into shooting, 1000 yard matches were dominated by .30’s, primarily the 300 H&H Magnum with a .30-06 kind a making the grade but not considered really powerful enough to compete with the bigger H&H round. Experiments were quite successful with the 6.5x284 Winchester and of course the wildcat 6.5 x 300 Weatherby-Wright Magnum was being considered. (Full length 300 Weatherby mag necked to 6.5, which has recently been added into the Weatherby line as the 6.5 Weatherby Magnum).

Now, the .300‘s are really considered too small for really long range. The .338’s, .375’s and big 50 BMG considered the proper rounds. For an even bigger change, the current thinking is that the 6BR and its family of cartridges is the best round to shoot 1000 yard matches.

Things one sees when one gets the privilege to live well into his 70’s.

 

[lash]

Yes, things really have changed a lot in the past ten years.

For example, the .300 Norma mag is still very a viable ELR cartridge.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]