Anyone ever encountered this? Is it possible to buy someones trust with the can already approved in the trust and simply change the trustees and physical address, leaving the registered trust name the same? All this as opposed to buyin the can from someone and have to do a new stamp.
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Suppressors Can u purchase an existing trust?
- Thread starter bobo
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I would guess not - however you could purchase an LLC or Corp with its Assets. Or, be added as a member to an LLC, then purchase the other members shares - effectively giving you sole control over the assets. I would think this would be the better option form a purchasing perspective than a Trust.
As KYS stated...a trust is an entity - you cannot buy it...the 13th Amendment ended that. 
What you can do is have the Grantor, Trustees and Beneficiary changed and have it notarized and made legal. You'll need to keep the original trust name though...
You'll need to contact the ATF on procedures for changing the address...I'm interested in this part in case I decide to move...let us know what you find out.
What you can do is have the Grantor, Trustees and Beneficiary changed and have it notarized and made legal. You'll need to keep the original trust name though...
You'll need to contact the ATF on procedures for changing the address...I'm interested in this part in case I decide to move...let us know what you find out.
To change the address have the law firm amend the trust to reflect the address change and send in the correct form to the ATF showing you are moving permanently to a new location. I forget the form number, but its easy to do. Takes them a week or two to send it back approved for permanent change of address.
Why notify the ATF of an address change? Is this actually required by law or just a courtesy?
This issue of potentially having to notify them upon changing "responsible parties" is where the BATF is going to get buried in a mound of paper. Ask and you shall receive.
Lastly, I see trusts all the time where the trustees are another nonhuman entity. i.e., a bank or trust company. So it's like now you have First National Bank as co-trustee with Bob in XYZ Revocable Family Trust. GOOD LUCK ON GETTING A MAJOR BANK to play this game.
This issue of potentially having to notify them upon changing "responsible parties" is where the BATF is going to get buried in a mound of paper. Ask and you shall receive.
Lastly, I see trusts all the time where the trustees are another nonhuman entity. i.e., a bank or trust company. So it's like now you have First National Bank as co-trustee with Bob in XYZ Revocable Family Trust. GOOD LUCK ON GETTING A MAJOR BANK to play this game.
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Pretty sure there's a reason why they ask for a specific street address and not just the State...
For suppressors it's a little easier...just notify the ATF of the change. For everything else you need prior approval.....
From the ATF NFA FAQ page:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#lawful-transportation
Q: Does the registered owner of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle need authorization to lawfully transport such items interstate?
Yes, unless the owner is a qualified dealer, manufacturer or importer, or a licensed collector transporting only curios or relics. Prior approval must be obtained, even if the move is temporary. Approval is requested by either submitting a letter containing all necessary information, or by submitting ATF Form 5320.20 to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. Possession of the firearms also must comply with all State and local laws.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (4), 27 CFR 478.28]
From the ATF NFA FAQ page:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#lawful-transportation
Q: Does the registered owner of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle need authorization to lawfully transport such items interstate?
Yes, unless the owner is a qualified dealer, manufacturer or importer, or a licensed collector transporting only curios or relics. Prior approval must be obtained, even if the move is temporary. Approval is requested by either submitting a letter containing all necessary information, or by submitting ATF Form 5320.20 to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. Possession of the firearms also must comply with all State and local laws.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (4), 27 CFR 478.28]
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Uh, this might be considered tax fraud. Sounds a little too much like a way around the system to be a good way to get a can.
Doubtful... The trust is the owner...it has paid the taxes. Only thing you're changing is who has access to the items listed in the trust.
I do recommend consulting with a legal professional first though...
That's the reason they want after the fact notification of the main parties. I'm not sure that you can "buy" a trust but you sure can an LLC, Corp., or partnership.
This is the whole problem though when they claim that federalism is not impacted in this proposal. Trusts, LLCs, Corp's, & partnerships are all state regulated and registered entities. Now the BATF wants to know not only who the parties are, but could now state that your entity which already owns a SBR is apparently going to be in violation of the law if you made a person a member/partner/board member/VP/trustee/beneficiary who just happens to have been committed for a drug addiction or nervous breakdown 15 years ago, but have since been on the straight and narrow.
"For suppressors it's a little easier...just notify the ATF of the change. For everything else you need prior approval....."
I don't see anything listed at the ATF FAQ site that suggests you are required to notify the ATF of the transport of a silencer. Do you have a specific page? Also the link didn't work for me - I think it got shortened somehow...
I don't see anything listed at the ATF FAQ site that suggests you are required to notify the ATF of the transport of a silencer. Do you have a specific page? Also the link didn't work for me - I think it got shortened somehow...
I guess because the "firearm" is the section heading on item 4 in the form 4 - a silencer would qualify as having to notify to the ATF in writing - as per the bottom back of the Form 4...
Also, as I read it - the notification is required on a change to section 2a.
2a is the Transferee's Name and Address. If this is a Trust, LLC or Corp - only when those entities address change is the notification required. I may be wrong - but doesn't that mean that your simply reporting on the entities location change? If the Senior VP moves out of state - that is not reportable - even if he takes his suppressor with him. Its simply when the entity's address changes that there is a notification required.
Hence the separate process required when transporting items across interstate boundaries - that is separate from change the address of the Trust (for example).
2a is the Transferee's Name and Address. If this is a Trust, LLC or Corp - only when those entities address change is the notification required. I may be wrong - but doesn't that mean that your simply reporting on the entities location change? If the Senior VP moves out of state - that is not reportable - even if he takes his suppressor with him. Its simply when the entity's address changes that there is a notification required.
Hence the separate process required when transporting items across interstate boundaries - that is separate from change the address of the Trust (for example).
You class 3 needs to brush up on his regulations then.....
If you move in state, it requires a form to be filled out with your change of address since your trust or your individual form 4 is registered to you, at your current residence. If that were to change, the ATF is to be notified in case they were to audit or something along an inspection.
Your trust is invalid without an address in which it resides. You need to square that away asap.
Permanent change of address REQUIRES an ATF form be filled out. Form # 5320.20
.....Never a single issue with the ATF because they aren't really doing door to door searches these days. That and you never reported it so how would they know its day to day travels?
You should remedy this pretty quickly, if you were stopped and questioned you would be in federal violation. Go talk to whoever formed your trust.
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Call Apple Law Firm and speak to a professional about this. You are probably in state violation as well for not addressing the legal entity that is a Revocable Trust.
David Goldman
(904) 685-1200
Is yours a Quicken based trust?
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I can call the ATF 3 times and get 5 different answers.... that means nothing. I would pay a lawyer to rewrite it ESPECIALLY with the coming changes. They will look for any excuse now to jam you up.
But seriously, you are in violation without an address on the trust. Because I know that Quicken's software has an area for you to put it in. It shouldn't have got notarized without it.
But seriously, you are in violation without an address on the trust. Because I know that Quicken's software has an area for you to put it in. It shouldn't have got notarized without it.
I fixed the link. You aren't required to notify ATF when you transport a suppressor out of state....everything else you are supposed to.
Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Firearms | ATF
[MENTION=27374]poison123[/MENTION] The ATF does not care about the legality of the trust. They make sure that it contains a criteria that they have set (ie: Grantor, Beneficiaries, Trustees and Schedule A). The ATF leaves it up to YOU to ensure that the trust complies with State law. So, this is why you are able to get your tax stamps with no problem....because you have satisfied the Federal criteria...NOT because your trust is CORRECT and/or LEGAL for your State of residence. Federal law just allows for other States to recognize your trust....but, that only holds up in court if your trust is actually correct.
KYS is giving you correct advice that I agree with as well.
KYS is giving you correct advice that I agree with as well.
Ok - I'm not familiar with Georgia law regarding trusts....so, it is what it is. At least you're looking into it.
The attorney that wrote my trust wrote in the "Declaration of Trust" article that it would have the address of .... [my current address].
No offense, but unless you are a lawyer well versed in state regulations regarding trusts, corporations, estate planning, etc. Then you need to have someone check the legality of the trust against your state laws.
I am almost 100% sure that every state require you designate where the trust can be found if it had to be reviewed by a state official.
Not sure what you are looking at but every one of them I have seen require an address.... That is the first step in your basic info. I had Quicken to start out 7 years ago. Then I had it amended by a law office to be more state specific and to be more family friendly when I am no longer around.
Legally I don't see how that can fly but I guess if it's written then your OK.
But on the other side of it, you need to make sure all your form 4's reflect your current address.
I'm thinking that a trust, being a legal entity, can be located anywhere, like a corporation. Many corporations are located in Delaware for example. In theory the trust address can be in a state with liberal NFA laws, so long as the state involved allows such trusts to be formed on behalf of a non-resident, and I don't see why it wouldn't. After all, the beneficiaries of the trust might well not live in the state the trust was organized in and they still have a right to possess the items if they meet all the other NFA requirements. The trust doesn't have to move with those who are trustees or beneficiaries I wouldn't think. The agent handling the trust paperwork can be a business manager or lawyer, and does not have to be a grantor or trustee because the agent for the trust does not ever take possession or have authority over or control of the NFA items, only a trustee can do that.
Where the NFA items are stored is not really relevant to where the trust is founded, but the BATFE does require that you notify them of the actual physical location where the NFA items "live" and are usually stored. And the regular NFA transport regs will always apply. I know that my brother purchased several machine guns when he lived in Colorado, but when his job was moved back to California he had to store them in a locker in Nevada. This tells me that the contact address for the trust does not likely have to be the same as the physical storage location of the NFA items.
So, if you have to get a CLEO sign-off and your local yokel won't do it, I suggest investigating organizing your trust in a place where the CLEO will sign off, provide a valid storage address that's properly secure in that jurisdiction (a storage unit with a gun safe and an alarm system), get the tax stamps and then move the storage location wherever you like, like your home in the town where the local yokel won't sign off. You only have to NOTIFY the BATFE of a change in storage location, and perhaps get PERMISSION to move the items interstate, but you don't have to obtain PERMISSION to permanently move the NFA items to a new storage location anywhere it's legal to do so, nor, I believe, do you have to get a CLEO sign-off if and when you move from one community to another (which is another argument as to why the CLEO signoff is a useless obstruction...they don't require one every time you move your "permanent" address, only when you apply for the tax stamp).
It's an open question whether the BATFE notifies a CLEO of a permanent change of storage location when someone moves. I doubt it though, because this is still a tax matter, and I'm not sure they have legal authority to rat you out to your local Chief Wiggum just because you changed your place of residence (and who cares if they do, he can't stop you from having NFA items if it's legal). I think they have to be satisfied that THEY know the exact storage location so they can come inspect it.
A side benefit of this is that they can go to XYZ storage lot's address for a "surprise" inspection and not see anything. They have to call a trustee and make an appointment to inspect the storage facility...not that they really have time to do this. I stored my brother's machine guns for about a year in a closet in my house when he first moved to California, and it was perfectly legal because they were locked in Pelican cases, only he had the keys, and the NFA paperwork was taped to the outside of the cases.
That's my non-professional, non-lawyer's opinion that's worth exactly what you paid for it...
When life (or the BATFE) gives you lemons, make lemonade!
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All I want to know is HITF is BATF going to address the situation where trust owns NFA items now and the trust adds a new co-trustee in a jurisdiction where CLEO won't sign?
The BATF takes the overly simplistic and cynical position that these trusts are solely setup to a skirt the law. When the co-trustee is added for a legitimate purpose like he's an excellent ranch manager and the trust owns 10,000 acres of farm land in addition to the three SBRs they use for hog control, and the new trustee whose not a felon can't get a CLEO, what are they gonna do? Are they going to override state trust law and prevent the trustee from being appointed or are they going to unconstitutionally seize property previously legally acquired under the 1934 NFA statute?
I predict the BATF gets spanked for this in court.
The BATF takes the overly simplistic and cynical position that these trusts are solely setup to a skirt the law. When the co-trustee is added for a legitimate purpose like he's an excellent ranch manager and the trust owns 10,000 acres of farm land in addition to the three SBRs they use for hog control, and the new trustee whose not a felon can't get a CLEO, what are they gonna do? Are they going to override state trust law and prevent the trustee from being appointed or are they going to unconstitutionally seize property previously legally acquired under the 1934 NFA statute?
I predict the BATF gets spanked for this in court.
If you are moving from one state to another that both allow suppressor a, you don't have to send the ATF any paperwork for the address change. I called and inquired about it when I was moving from sc to nc, they told me it wasn't necessary.
It is my understanding that non-licencees (non-FFL/SOT) are NOT subject to 'storage location inspection'. The ATF would need your permission or a search warrant for an 'inspection'. Non-licencees that possess class 3 items do NOT give up their rights in this regard.
A trust is a legal entity and it, not the trustees, owns the NFA items. The CLEO sign-off is only required when forming the trust and acquiring an NFA item. It would not be required, as I understand it, simply for a change of trustees. They just want fingerprints and photos of all trustees, past and future. Since the trust isn't applying for a tax stamp when it changes trustees the CLEO provision would not apply.
Presumably if they run a background check on a new trustee and he's disqualified they will take some action or other to notify the trust that the new trustee may be a trustee, but may not possess NFA items. That's a fine point that the proposed reg does not address, and it may indeed put the BATFE in a bit of a conundrum because they don't have regulatory authority to declare an NFA item lawfully owned by a trust to be contraband merely because a trustee is, or becomes disqualified to possess the item. Since the BATFE cannot control a state trust, it is possible for a felon to become a trustee, or a trustee to become a felon, at which point they are still a trustee, but they are DISQUALIFIED from possessing any firearms at all. That doesn't change.
I'm beginning to think that this is a CYA situation, and that the BATFE is trying to close the "loophole" of issuing a tax stamp to a trust that has a disqualified person as a trustee not because they have any problem enforcing the NFA against a disqualified person whether or not they are a trustee, but because it "looks bad" when the BATFE issues the tax stamp to a trust with a felon as a trustee. It pisses off the anti-gun zealots that this can happen, and the BATFE appears to be ignoring the fact that a trust never actually makes a legally disqualified person qualified to POSSESS the NFA item. They seem to be ignoring that it's perfectly legal and reasonable for a disqualified person to be a trustee, which means for him to manage the affairs of the trust under state law, without his being able to physically posses the NFA item legally. For example, if you set up a trust to be run by the family law firm so that it can properly managed and administer the trust the law firm is a trustee, but no person in that firm who is disqualified can so much as touch the NFA items.
This is something that needs to be argued in the comments. Vetting all ORIGINAL trustees listed when the paperwork is filed to acquire an NFA item may be reasonable, but that would mean re-submitting all the fingerprint and other information each time the trust acquires another NFA item, which is an excessive and unnecessary burden. Therefore I'd look for them to require vetting of the original trustees with the setting up of the trust and acquiring of the first NFA item, and from there on out, each new Form 4 or whatever would not require further investigation of the trustees because the system would only require any new trustee to send in the requisite information.
I think you are missing an important paragraph (see paragraph "G" below). It's intent is to make any modifications to any entity via an addition of a new controlling party reportable within 30 days:
III. Proposed Rule
A. Amendment of § 479.11
The Department proposes amending § 479.11 to add a definition for the term
“responsible person.” The term would include specific definitions in the case of a trust,
partnership, association, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or
corporation. Depending on the context, the term includes any individual, including any
grantor, trustee, beneficiary, partner, member, officer, director, board member, owner,
shareholder, or manager, who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority
under any trust instrument, contract, agreement, article, certificate, bylaw, or instrument,
or under state law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise
dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the entity."
B - F skipped
G. Miscellaneous
ATF recognizes that the composition of the responsible persons associated with a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation may change, and is considering a requirement that new responsible persons submit Form 5320.23 within 30 days of the change. ATF seeks comments on this option and solicits recommendations for other approaches.
III. Proposed Rule
A. Amendment of § 479.11
The Department proposes amending § 479.11 to add a definition for the term
“responsible person.” The term would include specific definitions in the case of a trust,
partnership, association, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or
corporation. Depending on the context, the term includes any individual, including any
grantor, trustee, beneficiary, partner, member, officer, director, board member, owner,
shareholder, or manager, who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority
under any trust instrument, contract, agreement, article, certificate, bylaw, or instrument,
or under state law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise
dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the entity."
B - F skipped
G. Miscellaneous
ATF recognizes that the composition of the responsible persons associated with a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation may change, and is considering a requirement that new responsible persons submit Form 5320.23 within 30 days of the change. ATF seeks comments on this option and solicits recommendations for other approaches.
I agree it's reportable, but the question is whether a new CLEO sign-off is required for such personnel changes. I don't think it is.
Good point sir. But you know how the govt is. I suspect they are going to take a mile if given an inch.
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