Can't get an update on my custom build!

[chris514scott]

I have ordered my first custom build and am starting to feel like my order has either slipped between the cracks or the builder just doesn't care. I was originally quoted around 7 weeks for the complete build. Below is the timeline of this order and correspondence.


March 4th. Spoke with builder and confirmed what action I wanted. They said it was in stock and they would order it in.


March 25th. Contacted by builder confirming barreled action specs so they could get started on the build.


May 14th. I reach out to builder for info and was told it should be on the way back from cerakote


June 13th. Reach out again for an update and was told they thought this build had already been finished. I was asked to call the shop to check on the status. Called the shop and was told they would look into it and call me back.



June 22nd. Still no call from shop. Had contact with builder and was told someone at the shop would get back with me on the status.


As of today, I still have not been contacted about the status of this build that they thought was complete over a month ago.


This is a very well respected builder and I don't want to be unreasonable but it has been 3 months since the build was supposed to be started and 3 days shy of a month from when I paid for the action as a deposit.


Do I have a right to be upset or is this normal in this industry? I haven't been blowing up the builders phone because I know they're busy but I feel like I deserve the same respect by getting a call back when they say they will call.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

It's normal in this century with many custom builders in many disciplines. I work in Customer Service and if one tells me I'll get a call back/an update and I don't get it the deal is off.

Can you stop payment at this point? Do that and see if you get a reply.

VooDoo

 

[Mordamer]

I have had this exact same experience you describe with 3 separate gunsmiths. The quoting of unrealistic lead times is rampant in the industry.

 

[Pusher591]

The quoting of unrealistic lead times is almost expected BUT.....to think a rifle has been finished and have no clue it’s location is a big problem. Not just on a customer level but a regulations level. You have every right to be nervous/upset in my opinion.

 

[Mordamer]

I agree that he has every right to be upset. I hate the fact that this behavior is common by industry professionals. The worst scenario is when they are both way slow and horrible at communication.

 

[lennyo3034]

While I agree the OP has a right to be concerned, especially in this particular case, let's look at things from the gunsmith perspective.

Not knowing where build is or thinking it was already finished is bad, not excusing them for that one.

I can understand being slow to communicate in this business though. Many shops are one or two man operations and spending time away from machines can severely reduce throughput. I was talking to one the other day and he stated his output would triple if it weren't for the time he spent giving order statuses.

I certainly wouldn't expect a smith to answer the phone when I call. Interrupting while he is setting up effects throughput and quality. Getting calls and emails back at the end of the day would certainly be nice, but doing it for 3-4 hours a day really effects their build time.

This is coming from someone who is only a customer. I work in the manufacturing industry but not related to gunsmithing.

 

[brianf]

there was a good thread about this a little while ago...give it a search. i wont reiterate the whole thing again.
one more reason i love buying AI, no more smiths ever again. website, shopping cart, UPS, im shooting on saturday.

 

[supercorndogs]

One reason i like to deal with LRI. Their extremely fast lead times are not bull shit.

 

[Precision Underground]

The whole "well if I stop to let customers know why their rifle is 2 months late it will take me away from the machine and I'll get even more behind" bothers me. If that is the case, in ANY industry, you need to hire someone to deal with customers so you can do your work. Really, gunsmithing is the only industry I can think of where "well we are backed up and we don't have time to talk to customers" will fly with most people.

 

[nexusfire]

One reason i like to deal with LRI. Their extremely fast lead times are not bull shit.

They are definitely good at turning things around and they email you progress reports with pics.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

The whole "well if I stop to let customers know why their rifle is 2 months late it will take me away from the machine and I'll get even more behind" bothers me. If that is the case, in ANY industry, you need to hire someone to deal with customers so you can do your work. Really, gunsmithing is the only industry I can think of where "well we are backed up and we don't have time to talk to customers" will fly with most people.

Used to make custom knives/swords and worked with several well know/busy Smiths. This phenomenon (scant communication and delayed deliveries) was rampant in that Discipline 10 years ago. Talented craftsmen are in huge demand and many of them see everything and anything other than actually performing their craft as a distraction and nuisance. Often the best Smiths/Makers were the worst at communication and the busier they got the less they took time to return emails, phone calls, and update order status.

Makes for some ruffled feathers and it was one reason I never took commissions or one off/custom projects.

I made cool shit and sold it on my site. Everything sold as is and never had a complaint. Doing custom work is a hard row to hoe.

VooDoo

 

[Precision Underground]

Used to make custom knives/swords and worked with several well know/busy Smiths. This phenomenon (scant communication and delayed deliveries) was rampant in that Discipline 10 years ago. Talented craftsmen are in huge demand and many of them see everything and anything other than actually performing their craft as a distraction and nuisance. Often the best Smiths/Makers were the worst at communication and the busier they got the less they took time to return emails, phone calls, and update order status.

Makes for some ruffled feathers and it was one reason I never took commissions or one off/custom projects.

I made cool shit and sold it on my site. Everything sold as is and never had a complaint. Doing custom work is a hard row to hoe.

VooDoo

I think the issue is that most talented smiths/artists absolutely suck at the business side of it. There is a company on here with a lot of backed up orders and they will post here from time to time to update and everyone eats it up and thanks them profusely for gracing them with an update. One of the updates was something like, "guys, we are working hard. If you send an email and dont't get a response within a week, please send it again, we are trying to get to all of them". WTF??? The unanswered emails will still be in the account. Why the hell do you need another one? That is the worst customer svc statement ever. I would never ever choose to do business with them just because of that. I think if they realized that and hired someone at minimum wage to do the simple job of communicating with customers, it would pay for itself in new business from people who would trust that their project wont go into a black hole.

 

[maverickasu]

Only had one gun built so far, but I think you definitely have a right to be concerned. I know the shop I use I could drop by and one of the guys would let me know if there had been movement or parts had come in... I lived 5 mins away so I never called.

The shop I used had multiple guys, so somebody would always be able to talk. One man shops I have a LITTLE more understanding for... But honestly it's common decency to get back to your CUSTOMERS... If they don't respond I might ask for the action I paid for and walk

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I think the issue is that most talented smiths/artists absolutely suck at the business side of it. There is a company on here with a lot of backed up orders and they will post here from time to time to update and everyone eats it up and thanks them profusely for gracing them with an update. One of the updates was something like, "guys, we are working hard. If you send an email and dont't get a response within a week, please send it again, we are trying to get to all of them". WTF??? The unanswered emails will still be in the account. Why the hell do you need another one? That is the worst customer svc statement ever. I would never ever choose to do business with them just because of that. I think if they realized that and hired someone at minimum wage to do the simple job of communicating with customers, it would pay for itself in new business from people who would trust that their project wont go into a black hole.

Ok, so you call this company up and a minimum wage employee answers the phone. You have a question about what free bore your chamber has, help on load data, and if he/she thinks that a 6 dasher or 6 BRA is the best way to go on your next barrel. You think youre going to get an educated answer that helps you in the least bit? Fuck no. You'll get a, "ummm, im not sure. let me go ask someone that knows wtf they're talking about." To hire someone with actual firearms knowledge to the level anywhere near what the gunsmith he works for has, youre coming off the hip way more for that build than it is right now. Depending on the locations average price of living, you may be paying upwards of $25-30 per hour as an employer. I'd rather save my money on my build, than having those kinds of expenses taken into account when pricing my rifle. I want my gunsmith to have as low of overhead as possible b/c that makes the difference in the amount of money im shelling out. If its a very sought after reputable gun smith, you are one of 100's of rifles going on at any given time. You don't know the amount of work being done there. Slammed is slammed, I don't care how many minimum wage people you hire. If you want something fast and good, call a shop that has 5 or more smiths cutting chips. I promise, youre going to pay for that amount of manpower.

 

[Precision Underground]

Ok, so you call this company up and a minimum wage employee answers the phone. You have a question about what free bore your chamber has, help on load data, and if he/she thinks that a 6 dasher or 6 BRA is the best way to go on your next barrel. You think youre going to get an educated answer that helps you in the least bit? Fuck no. You'll get a, "ummm, im not sure. let me go ask someone that knows wtf they're talking about." To hire someone with actual firearms knowledge to the level anywhere near what the gunsmith he works for has, youre coming off the hip way more for that build than it is right now. Depending on the locations average price of living, you may be paying upwards of $25-30 per hour as an employer. I'd rather save my money on my build, than having those kinds of expenses taken into account when pricing my rifle. I want my gunsmith to have as low of overhead as possible b/c that makes the difference in the amount of money im shelling out. If its a very sought after reputable gun smith, you are one of 100's of rifles going on at any given time. You don't know the amount of work being done there. Slammed is slammed, I don't care how many minimum wage people you hire. If you want something fast and good, call a shop that has 5 or more smiths cutting chips. I promise, youre going to pay for that amount of manpower.

Obviously a receptionist is not going to answer gunsmithing questions, that is not at all what my post said. But companies with no communication and tripled lead times have come on here and said they can't spend any time answering emails or phone calls and that's why there is radio silence. You don't have to be on shark tank or have a MBA to realize there is a problem there. They are leaving money on the table with that business model and if they fixed it the extra cost would be a wash at worst. Are you saying that a company with hundreds of custom orders(in your words) , should not have a person dedicated to communication? Especially when quoted lead times are tripled?? How does that make sense? It would be one thing if they said "7 weeks" and didn't say a word for 7 weeks and then the rifle showed up. No issue there. But I can guarantee you I won't send a dime to a company that triples lead times and has no communication. There are companies that don't do that. Why wouldn't you use them instead?

 

[RTH1800]

AI, LRI are solutions to your problem. Or, be very patient.

 

[brianf]

the best craftsman (in any trade) are usually the worst businessmen, thats a well known fact.

leaving aside the communication issues and just looking at it from a simple business plan, is that most companies (usually the smaller are the most lacking) is a proper schedule.

it all comes down to capacity (schedule is king):

hours available on the work center or lathe etc (the shop is open 50 hours a week etc)

hours the employee/craftsman work that work center (3 employees and 4 available work centers...what machine/work center is off that day, and more importantly what machine is supposed to be off that day)

proper and accurate KPI (key performance indicators) and or average time it takes per step of the process (building a rifle). its not magic, you set a lathe up for feed speed and set up time, that never drastically changes over the course of several weeks.

smaller shops never think that is important which is the downfall of most smaller comapanies, because they are too busy getting jobs out.
nevermind the cashflow issues of bringing in raw materials you cant use on time etc..

if they sat down with old school peg board or god forbid use the free production scheduling tool in excell you schedule out your equipment and work force by using a start date when the material first gets in the door/projected rec date.

once you do that then the 19 girl can look at the board and tell a customer a projected due date.

Transaction discipline and data integrity, is all it takes once you have the qualified shop.

instead of that all owner operators are always waiting to find the employee that is as good as they were when they were young. what they never understand is that if there is a employee as good as they are and can run the shop they leave and start their own.

ive gone from very small manufacturing business trying to pay the bills to large one (not being a dick), and if you dont follow those simple rules you will never grow out of a garage shop, believe me i know.

then add in competition in the market place and its over.

 

[BoilerUP]

Customer asks a builder (could be a rifle, could be a house, could be a custom car...doesn't matter) "How long will it take?"

If builder says "eight weeks" and it takes 14, the buyer is going to be pissed. They asked a fair question, set an expectation once they got an answer, then when that expectation wasn't met the inquiries begin again...which in my experience doesn't really help things move along for either party.

If builder says "sixteen weeks" and it takes 14, buyer is happy as shit that the builder underpromised and overdelivered.

Of course there's a big gulf between a bullshit high estimate and an unrealistic low estimate that gives no consideration to supply chain issues or ANY other disruption...finding a middle ground a using plenty of caveats seems to be the juuuuuuuuust right solution many many companies struggle with.

I'm an understanding guy; I know sometimes shit happens, and I send email or texts vs. phone calls because I don't want to take you away from a job to handle my whiny ass RIGHT NOW...but periodic communication really isn't too much to ask when timelines get pushed and going NORDO is absolutely and totally unsat.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Threads like this seem to be just an ever present part of the whole custom built rifles thing.
Seems nobody ever learns.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Customer asks a builder (could be a rifle, could be a house, could be a custom car...doesn't matter) "How long will it take?"

If builder says "eight weeks" and it takes 14, the buyer is going to be pissed. They asked a fair question, set an expectation once they got an answer, then when that expectation wasn't met the inquiries begin again...which in my experience doesn't really help things move along for either party.

If builder says "sixteen weeks" and it takes 14, buyer is happy as shit that the builder underpromised and overdelivered.

This right here.

As has been covered through this thread already, this issue is rampant throughout many custom industries. Lots of custom pistol builders do this exact thing. The key is finding someone who knows how to do both the CS/business side and the building side. My last custom open gun was quoted 6 weeks. It was delivered in 5, and nicer than I could have imagined.

I have seen tons of people with the opposite experience and I don't envy them at all.

 

[Milo 2.5]

There is never any excuse for lack of communication, ever. It takes 2 minutes to send a text, I can see not fielding calls during working hours, if designated times for it are set in place. Welcome to the world of having a gun built!
I could give tips and experiences, but irrelevant, lol, either be patient or keep trying.

 

[Precision Underground]

the best craftsman (in any trade) are usually the worst businessmen, thats a well known fact.

leaving aside the communication issues and just looking at it from a simple business plan, is that most companies (usually the smaller are the most lacking) is a proper schedule.

it all comes down to capacity (schedule is king):

hours available on the work center or lathe etc (the shop is open 50 hours a week etc)

hours the employee/craftsman work that work center (3 employees and 4 available work centers...what machine/work center is off that day, and more importantly what machine is supposed to be off that day)

proper and accurate KPI (key performance indicators) and or average time it takes per step of the process (building a rifle). its not magic, you set a lathe up for feed speed and set up time, that never drastically changes over the course of several weeks.

smaller shops never think that is important which is the downfall of most smaller comapanies, because they are too busy getting jobs out.
nevermind the cashflow issues of bringing in raw materials you cant use on time etc..

if they sat down with old school peg board or god forbid use the free production scheduling tool in excell you schedule out your equipment and work force by using a start date when the material first gets in the door/projected rec date.

once you do that then the 19 girl can look at the board and tell a customer a projected due date.

Transaction discipline and data integrity, is all it takes once you have the qualified shop.

instead of that all owner operators are always waiting to find the employee that is as good as they were when they were young. what they never understand is that if there is a employee as good as they are and can run the shop they leave and start their own.

ive gone from very small manufacturing business trying to pay the bills to large one (not being a dick), and if you dont follow those simple rules you will never grow out of a garage shop, believe me i know.

then add in competition in the market place and its over.

This, exactly this.

 

[nexusfire]

It still boggles my mind that people deal with this shit. No gun is worth that. If I cant get a barreled action done inside of 30 days I dont even mess around with them. Leave the long wait times to the safe queen curators.

 

[nexusfire]

the best craftsman (in any trade) are usually the worst businessmen, thats a well known fact.

leaving aside the communication issues and just looking at it from a simple business plan, is that most companies (usually the smaller are the most lacking) is a proper schedule.

it all comes down to capacity (schedule is king):

hours available on the work center or lathe etc (the shop is open 50 hours a week etc)

hours the employee/craftsman work that work center (3 employees and 4 available work centers...what machine/work center is off that day, and more importantly what machine is supposed to be off that day)

proper and accurate KPI (key performance indicators) and or average time it takes per step of the process (building a rifle). its not magic, you set a lathe up for feed speed and set up time, that never drastically changes over the course of several weeks.

smaller shops never think that is important which is the downfall of most smaller comapanies, because they are too busy getting jobs out.
nevermind the cashflow issues of bringing in raw materials you cant use on time etc..

if they sat down with old school peg board or god forbid use the free production scheduling tool in excell you schedule out your equipment and work force by using a start date when the material first gets in the door/projected rec date.

once you do that then the 19 girl can look at the board and tell a customer a projected due date.

Transaction discipline and data integrity, is all it takes once you have the qualified shop.

instead of that all owner operators are always waiting to find the employee that is as good as they were when they were young. what they never understand is that if there is a employee as good as they are and can run the shop they leave and start their own.

ive gone from very small manufacturing business trying to pay the bills to large one (not being a dick), and if you dont follow those simple rules you will never grow out of a garage shop, believe me i know.

then add in competition in the market place and its over.

this says it all. do yourself a favor and source your own components.

 

[PAYDIRT]

There's no excuse for that. There are others that don't do that nonsense, and I'd bet they are better too. Just gotta do your homework before you commit to a smith. That kind of business actually says something about their work if truth be known.

 

[LRI]

I've been brought into this now two or three times. So, my two cents:

One needs to understand a couple things about the "custom rifle trade". First off, this is a cottage industry in almost any/every capacity. What exactly does that mean? It means you have a shop typically staffed with one to five people. Usually in someone's garage or shop and its run on a shoe string budget.

Now we expand on this a little. The capital venture into this trade is not trivial. Machines are expensive. In my case, I have almost $100,000 in just chambering reamers, gauges, pilots, throating tools, and the tool package to do the turning and threading. This does not include the machine itself.

Now figure mills, tooling, fixtures, blah, blah, blah, cry me a river Chad-I get it.


My only reason for bringing this up is folks get into this stuff with all the optimism the world and a new business has to offer. Then a turning point is reached where you realize the 5 and 10 percent savings that companies give you as a "dealer" doesn't amount to much when your only cranking out a few barreled actions/guns per month. The labor rate you have to charge to be competitive means you need to be extremely fluent and error free in order to make any money.

It's a growing pain and it hurts/sucks/stings. You must get acclimated to it and find a better course or you'll soon find yourself on the "wall of shame" that has haunted this trade for decades.

The motive behind this is not to scare to pants off the public. It's to illustrate why a guy may not be answering a phone or email as fast as I can. I am very, very, very fortunate. I went through this a decade ago. Ask Frank Galli what my CS rep was back in 2009. It absolutely sucked and its for the exact reasons I've laid out here. I had a decision to make. I rolled the dice yet again and liquidated my entire life savings. I bought MORE machines, not manuals, but cnc's and then built infrastructure. Keep in mind I have never gone to a bank. Not once. I again was lucky because I spent three years in "Gaghdad" contracting and making stupid money from it. I spent ALL of it on LRI.

My project manager called me an absolute fool when I quit to come home and get rolling on this place. The point here is not to toot my horn. It's to just illustrate that most don't have the ability to dump a quarter million in cash into a startup. Most banks would look at you as somone who uses too many recreational pharmaceuticals if you were to ask for that. The Sturgis Eco Development group would not give me the time of day back then. Now, I'm a board member.

The whole point here guys is most small shops, and mine, are not laiden with staff who have nothing better to do than jerk off customers on the phone all day. If you want a teenage gum smacker answering the phones, maybe. Then it'd be a case of folks complaining that the experience is about the same as a call center where its directed to "Habib" in Yemen.

It has taken a solid ten years. Kalli and I don't have kids anymore. They are all gone. We JUST bought our first house last fall. Up until then she tolerated us living damn near in meth houses to put it towards this place. We are just now seeing the start of the return from all this.

Again, not many can do this. The ones who can will be the first to admit it did not happen overnight. YOU as clients expect the level of service befitting someone who spends 3-7 grand on a rifle. I get that and its why I have done what I've done to mold this place. All too often a guy gets upside down and uses the next deposit to fund the former. It is a dangerous game and make no mistake, at one time or another we have ALL played it. Shit happens and decisions have to be made. How you dig out is pulling double duty. Hard to do with a wife, kids, dog, house payment, truck payment, etc...

In no way do I mean to scare anyone into thinking their smith is a shitbag who rips people off. Its just understand that the thousands of bucks you spend is not going into the business per say. It's buying the stuff you want. The actual labor is maybe a third of the total cost in most instances.

Just a thought.

C.

 

[nexusfire]

^ LOL I always thought Kalli was your daughter haha.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Well said, Chad. As per usual

 

[lennyo3034]

Thank you Chad. You could have come here and talked about how your lead times are low and how you have time to be able to communicate. Instead you're letting people know how it really is in the business and why other smiths proceed the way they do.

Coming from a true business insider that means a lot.

 

[brianf]

just by his reply (informative) you can see why he is growing and buying a new house. he took the time to answer one of a million threads.
wait....that sounds like customer service....lol

 

[SLG]

Everything Chad said is absolutely true form what and who I know in the industry. Still doesn't excuse the OP's issues.

The reason so many builders have such terrible CS is because of the very personality traits that got them into working on guns. Those type of guys like to deal with things, not people. It is what it is, but if you want to have a good, long term business, you need to figure out how to shore up your weaknesses. This is called being a professional. Taking the money is the easy part, its all the rest that is difficult and needs attention.

I have a fair number of custom rifles and pistols. All of them were commissioned after a long and careful decision process, often based on me personally knowing the smith for a number of years. Most came though as promised. A few did not, but maintained communication the whole time. I am still friends or at least friendly with all of them.

If that doesn't appeal to you, I strongly second the AI approach, which I also take. Cake and eat it too.