Carbon Barrels

[Dead Eye Dick]

I need to know about problems issues with Carbon wrapped barrels when used in precision rifle matches

Background. I have been having a blast with my Vudoo. I choose an ultra lightweight MPA chassis, a lightweight (Kukri contour) with an all up weight including bipod of 12 pounds one ounce. The rimfire rifle balances decently, and is steady as a rock when shooting. All up weight with bipod is 12 pounds one ounce.

As I now oft complain, my left shoulder has said after 76 years, I’ve had enough. Right shoulder is fine and I can still use my left arm, I’m simply am not as able to work with my 19 pound 6GT’s like I can shoot and handle the .22 Vudoo. I cannot hold the centerfire rifles steady, but have no issues holding the Vudoo steady. (6GT Heavy buttstock, heavy MTU barrel, no serious weight in the center. Vudoo, light barrel, light buttstock, 700 weight action, keeping a large percentage of the weight in center. Center mass wins in most cases).

ref, I have sailed all my life. To keep a sailboat from “hobby horsing” we keep weight out of the ends.

So, as an experiment I would like to rebuild one of my two GT’s as a lightweight (relatively speaking, 12 to 13 pounds all up with scope and bipod) to see if it would emulate the success I am having with the Vudoo.

Final example, (don’t laugh fellas). This past weekend I shot 30% with the GT in the Saturday match. I shot 72.5% with the Vudoo in the Sunday match. Both matches were ‘finals’ for the year and were supposed to be a serious level of difficulty. (Addendum, that would be hitting the target on 30% of shots taken and the same, hitting the target 72.5% of shots taken)

So, to repeat the question, nothing has been spent, nothing is cast in stone, but the Vudoo is working and the GT’s are not working as well. Would a Carbon Fiber barrel work over long strings of shots?

Vudoo as I am shooting it

The two GT’s, the rifle used in the match this past weekend is the Gray rifle in the background

 

[drwood96]

Barrel heat and mirage is biggest different I've seen from my "PRS" setup vs the CF "field" setup. With my Proof 6.5 CM Sendero contour, the mirage comes into play about 15 rounds in a string and heavy at 20. I seen very few matches (PRS, Field, Mil) where minimum round count is that high and only hit it if you're missing really fast.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I have a bartlein carbon no13 in 6CM. I don't notice any walking or stringing, but it does tend to heat up (and cool down) more rapidly than a full metal barrel. I noticed first that, in the shade with a little breeze, it seems to dump heat pretty quickly between strings; although i only measure with the "can I grab it bare handed" test.

I can't really comment on mirage, because florida. There is almost always mirage.

It's also a lot more expensive than just doing a thinner steel contour. I probably wouldn't do one again, except for the fact they look cool.

 

[Secant]

I only have carbon barrels on hunting rifles, but I will shoot them for 10-shot strings relatively normally. The biggest thing I've noticed is mirage from the carbon wrapped barrel compared to heavy steel barrels - especially when ambient temps are low, and especially from magnum cartridges. I haven't experienced carbon barrels "walking".

Based on cost, I would probably just pick a slimmer contour SS barrel for what you are planning on using it for. Going from an MTU to a medium palma or sendero would save a couple pounds, or drop down further to a bartlein 3B. I had a 3B in 6.5CM that I regularly shot 10-20+ round strings through without issues (other than the barrel was done at about 2k rounds).

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

In Louisiana as well, I’ve seen all but unshootable mirage on a sunny winter day. Louisiana and Florida, the mirage “kings”. (Which is where I spend 99% of my time shooting).

 

[TheJeanyus]

I have shot some 10 round strings with my Proof 6.5 Creedmoor carbon barrel. I haven't noticed it throwing "fliers" as it got hot, but the mirage is definitely noticeable.

 

[wind gypsy]

3rd just getting a lighter steel barrel for performance and cost reasons.

 

[hlee]

I’m just going to throw it out there that guys aren’t going heavy to make their guns harder to shoot. Quite the opposite.

Comparing rimfire to centerfire is a fools errand. Rimfire is just easier. I’m a solid mid pack centerfire shooter, but I’m a threat to win (or at least be top 10%) with my Kidd in the 22 matches.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I’m just going to throw it out there that guys aren’t going heavy to make their guns harder to shoot. Quite the opposite.

Comparing rimfire to centerfire is a fools errand. Rimfire is just easier. I’m a solid mid pack centerfire shooter, but I’m a threat to win (or at least be top 10%) with my Kidd in the 22 matches.

You’ve seemed to have missed the point. It’s not a bout having a rifle that is accurate enought to win matches. I own such rifles and enjoy watching the bullets strike targets and pretty much stay on target when the round leaves the barrel. don’t need to be lectured or called a fool

It’s not about winning matches, it’s about being able to continue to participate in matches. Arguably, I am the oldest competitor in Precision Rifle, I aim (pun not intended) to continue to maintain that well into my 80’s maybe even 90’s. As long as I am not a burden to the squad I am shooting with or the match itself, I want to continue to support Precision Rifle. I’ve had one shooting sport die out from under me. It’s not a pretty sight. And, I fear, another, Cowboy Action is headed that way. (Though I never competed in that type of match). My ability to physically lift and safely shoot a rifle of 20 to 25 pounds is diminishing in match situations. it’s not gone yet, but I can see it coming. A 12 to 14 pound rifle is a whole nother story.

I am proud to see you are a contender to win matches. If we are privileged to shoot together and you win the match, i will be the among the first if not the first to congratulate you. But I seek no accolades, other than the personal satisfaction that I am not a couch sitter, waiting to die.

 

[hlee]

I’m not attempting to brag, but to say that a pretty “meh” PRS shooter can do very well in rimfire. Comparing the rifle weights is false equivalence. Iirc, my PRS gun is 15-16 lbs and I’m sure I’m leaving a few points on the table due to stability/recoil, relative to a heavier rifle. But, I shoot because I enjoy it, not for a trophy.

I would expect that a significant weight drop would be visible on the scoreboard at the end of the match. But, if the goal is just to get out and shoot, a ~15 lb rifle is quite shootable in barricade banchrest.

 

[Maurygold]

Pros: they’re fucking cool and just as accurate.

Someone that knows science better may correct me but they seem to hold more heat and mine don’t like to shoot super hot (would not use in f class or prs)

 

[fdkay]

Would you consider switching to 6 ARC?
I think you could get where you want to go by both reducing barrel weight and powder charge.
The reduced powder charge will slow the development of mirage.
I concur with poster above that you could forego the CF and just move to a light varmint/heavy magnum contour barrel, especially if you were to move to the 6 ARC.

 

[chevy_man]

Why not get your shoulder fixed?

I know 3 people now that tried to live with a bum shoulder. They all ended up getting 2, because they overused and destroyed the good one nursing the bad one.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I’m not attempting to brag, but to say that a pretty “meh” PRS shooter can do very well in rimfire.

Never apologize for an accomplishment you have worked for

Why not get your shoulder fixed?

I know 3 people now that tried to live with a bum shoulder. They all ended up getting 2, because they overused and destroyed the good one nursing the bad one.

It’s beyond repair but not bad enough for a replacement. Prefer a lighter rifle over major surgery.

Would you consider switching to 6 ARC?
I think you could get where you want to go by both reducing barrel weight and powder charge.
The reduced powder charge will slow the development of mirage.
I concur with poster above that you could forego the CF and just move to a light varmint/heavy magnum contour barrel, especially if you were to move to the 6 ARC.

My son and I discussed this cartridge. However, if i was going to switch, probably go with .223 Wilde. Already have bullets, dies, powder and cases. (Lots of cases) In my handgun days .223 cases were the basis for two different wildcats, plus a hard to get factory round and finally the .223 itself.

 

[chevy_man]

It’s beyond repair but not bad enough for a replacement. Prefer a lighter rifle over major surgery.

You know what everyone who's had a replacement has said? Why the fuck didn't I do this 10 years ago!?

You're at an age where you only need to do it once.

And not being able to pick up 15 lbs is pretty bad.

 

[LR1845]

@Dead Eye Dick have you looked at the XLR magnesium chassis as a way to help reduce weight? I believe with the carbon fiber grip and butt stock they are just over a pound, combine that with a short medium palma barrel and I bet you could get in right around 10lbs.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

@Dead Eye Dick have you looked at the XLR magnesium chassis as a way to help reduce weight? I believe with the carbon fiber grip and butt stock they are just over a pound, combine that with a short medium palma barrel and I bet you could get in right around 10lbs.

Our son has one and my wife and I shot with it for some months. I seriously considered using one with my Vudoo, but the lead time (we looked last night and it was 25 months) was a good bit longer than I wanted to wait. MPA has the ultralight chassis in stock. No lead time. Send the cash, get the chassis. It works for me. (There is a long story behind this, short version people getting things made and die before it gets finished). The XLR has one special advantage, it is ambidextrous which helps my son since he is a lefty. I suppose at my age, patience is not longer a virtue I can claim.

You know what everyone who's had a replacement has said? Why the fuck didn't I do this 10 years ago!?

You're at an age where you only need to do it once.

And not being able to pick up 15 lbs is pretty bad.

I can lift 20 pounds, (and more) but it’s painful at angles, like handling a heavy rifle. I have more than enough use which makes me concerned about major surgery. MD not recommending it either. I see your point, I have done other things which made me wonder why did I not do this sooner. It’s a mess.

Thank you both for the suggestions. They are good ones.

 

[LR1845]

Our son has one and my wife and I shot with it for some months. I seriously considered using one with my Vudoo, but the lead time (we looked last night and it was 25 months) was a good bit longer than I wanted to wait. MPA has the ultralight chassis in stock. No lead time. Send the cash, get the chassis. It works for me. (There is a long story behind this, short version people getting things made and die before it gets finished). The XLR has one special advantage, it is ambidextrous which helps my son since he is a lefty. I suppose at my age, patience is not longer a virtue I can claim.

CS tactical has the XLR MG in stock https://cstactical.com/xlr-element-magnesium-4-0-chassis/ and I am pretty sure Richard @CSTactical will cut you a deal on one if you PM him.

 

[rdramsey8]

I’ve also been considering putting a carbon barre on my hunting/match crossover rifle to keep the weight down since swapping the stock for a chassis. I’ve ultimately decided to go with a spiral fluted steel barrel for a few reasons.

-carbon/spiral fluted steel should be about the same weight

-I’ve read that carbon barrels are far more likely to be finicky shooters

-I’ve read the resin used in carbon barrels tends to hold heat

Not trying to steer you away from carbon, but figured I’d share my thoughts working through the same decision. Carbon barrels sure do look good though!

 

[bohem]

I would go to a lighter contour stainless barrel, maybe cut the length down a little bit and skip the carbon. Something like a Sendero or a Light Palma in a 223 Wylde will still have near zero recoil, it's super accurate, and it's a joy to shoot. At 24" long a Light Palma is going to weight about 3.5-3.75lb and a carbon barrel is going to cost about $400 more to save a pound or less. Both of those contours are heavy enough for 1000yd palma shooters to run them with optics and not be hampered from mirage in the scoped matches using full bore calibers. In a 223 I can personally attest that a 20 round string will warm it up but no more than a 10 round string of 6.5 Creed will do to a regular M24.

If you shoot the 75gr TAC bullet I make specifically for the 223 in TAC class you're going to have a trajectory and wind call virtually identical to a 6 Dasher shooting 105's (slightly more MV, almost identical BC). They feed like butter from the MDT mag that's 2.510 inside length. It's my favorite Go To rifle to let people shoot and demo our barrels and bullets together.


patriotvalleyarms.com

 

[Sdvldog1371]

I have 3 carbon proofs in 300 PRC. 2 don't walk much/ if at all when hot. 1 walks after the 4th shot usually. I do run them on the ragged edge with heavy bullets.

I have some Bartleins, #13 contour shooting 260 rem... I don't really let it heat up because of...reasons...the other, an m24 contour in 6.5 Addiction...I've shot some longer strings. The Addiction actually seems to tighten up (counter intuitive) when hotter. I don't suffer mirage that much on either proof or bartlein as long as I'm not running suppressed.

Carbon wrapped barrels do get hotter internally, and probably cool more evenly due to the heat dissipating more slowly. A smaller caliber like the 6 GT would probably be alright in a carbon barrel for longer strings. However, if lightweight is the concern, perhaps having a fluted stainless barrel might be a reasonable compromise? You can achieve adequate stiffness and weight without too much POI shift. I enjoy my 6 GT proof prefit stainless barrels, honestly I wish they made them in carbon, I'd have one of those too, Lol.

 

[Tex68w]

I’ve had one shooting sport die out from under me. It’s not a pretty sight.

Just curious, which shooting sport was that?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Just curious, which shooting sport was that?

IHMSA, Handgun Silhouette, It is (was) a hard sport to master.