Suppressors Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

[PGG]

I was told by someone who is very knowledgeable yesterday that we should carry a copy of the trust our C3 items are on along with the tax stamp at all times. My trust is my name so I figured this wouldn't be necessary. How could you get this answer in writing from the ATF because regardless of the answer I doubt the majority of the officers out their would know what the law was. Any idea where to find this or how to get this in writing like an email from the ATF? Thanks PG

 

[762frmafr]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

1-304-616-4500 NFA Branch of the ATF

 

[PGG]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Well I called and a nice lady at the ATF did say you didnt need to carry the trust only the tax stamp form or copy. However I still was hoping to find the rules in writing and asked her how to find that. She told me how to find the FAQ page but that information isnt there and almost no information about do's and donts regarding NFA items was there. Any suggestions? Anyone found a page on their website with important info like this? Again what if you get arrested just because a officer thinks you need the trust with you? Thanks PG

 

[Doogie]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3177642&gonew=1#UNREAD

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I carry a copy of my tax stamp, leave the original locked up

 

[PGG]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Thank you Doogie this is the FAQ regarding NFA items and not the FAQ list I had found very helpful to have. Thanks PG

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html

 

[stefan73]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I carry it for piece of mind and to avoid waiting too long for someone to figure out that I lawfully poses a suppressor.

 

[Twisted .308]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I carry it for piece of mind and to avoid waiting too long for someone to figure out that I lawfully poses a suppressor.
</div></div>

+1
Copies are In wallet , in vehicles ,in gun cases ,etc..w/ original in safe at home

 

[Doogie]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you Doogie this is the FAQ regarding NFA items and not the FAQ list I had found very helpful to have. Thanks PG

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html </div></div>

You're quite welcome.

The general concensus (at least as far as I have seen) is you don't have to have them on you, you only have to be able to show them to an ATF agent. However why deal with the cop (or in my case annoying RO) who knows just enough (or not enough) to be a pain when you could just carry your papers (copies of course) with you (that seemed like a lot of parathenses for one sentence). Given that suppressor shooters are still a relatively small group I try to be as pleasant as possible so we don't get generalized like them annoying cyclists who take up the whole damn road (wait did I just make a generalization there?).

I just scanned mine into a PDF format and put it on my phone. But most enforcement people you run into will have even less knowledge than you do, just because cans still are not that common.

 

[Tackleberry]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I reduced mine down to a size just larger than a business card and laminated them. The laminated copies stay in my billfold just like my drivers license. Very small but readable

 

[chu2001]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I just scanned mine into a PDF format and put it on my phone. But most enforcement people you run into will have even less knowledge than you do, just because cans still are not that common. </div></div>

That's what I do. PDF and load on the phone. I also have copy in the bag but don't think I need it. Cop will take proof of ins. in pdf from phone on traffic stop so I don't think this will make any different at all.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

If you want to be very technical .. only BATFE can really ask you for your stamp to examine as they are the authorizing department.

I know a lot will disagree but that is what the ATF has told me repeatly. As a curtesy you can show them to LEO but you do not have to.

Now that being said .. I hope I never have to ... although I have copies with me at all times when I have thoes items.

 

[dunes450r]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

i make multiple copies and carry one where the can goes, and as stated lock up the original in a safe place

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to be very technical .. only BATFE can really ask you for your stamp to examine as they are the authorizing department.

I know a lot will disagree but that is what the ATF has told me repeatly. As a curtesy you can show them to LEO but you do not have to.

Now that being said .. I hope I never have to ... although I have copies with me at all times when I have thoes items. </div></div>

100% on target. A LEO in possession of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> NFA item...is now in illegal possession of an NFA item. Just make copies (I laminate mine and keep them in a folder that goes to the range/field with me) and maintain the original in your safe/safety deposit box...aka, safe place. As others have stated...it will resolve a potential headache at some point in time. A traffic stop (I'm a LEO) is the first thing that comes to my mind where things might get interesting.

 

[bm11]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Has anyone ever been asked to see their paperwork?

 

[shoepop]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever been asked to see their paperwork? </div></div>

Nope, not in 15+ years sub, machine guns + a few suppressors 99% shooting public ranges loaded with all types law enforcement . I guess they figure no one would be dumb enough to take unregistered to a public range. Have had numerous times they stop just to have a look see , BS and maybe get a freebie mag or belt run.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I was asked at a public range once,by a RO. I could have showed him my urinalysis report and he would not have known the difference. Wherever my can goes, a laminate copy of the Tax stamp goes too.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Your not required to show proof to anyone except ATF

R/O i would of told him get an ATF guy out here and i will be happy to show him, you however ... NO

 

[GGGN]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Was told by the head of or range that they were going to be asking everyone to show proof of ownership due to suppressors getting so popular. We are a membership club and really only place to shoot that is close so.

First to get to range is acting RO and when he leaves he passes the vest to the next as we are all trained to be RO's. So I guess anyone one at our range may start asking to see form 4. I am not sure how they are going to go about it yet. He said they want to make sure the range does not get trouble if someone gets caught without having went through the proper channels to obtain the item.

Guess well wait and see. They might just give us a sticker to put on our card, like they did for people that are allowed to shot long range that way we don't have to show form for to average joe.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

You might want to inform your head of range that thou he can ask no one is required to provide such docs unless to an ATF agent.

The assumption that they have a right to ask is BS
Do they ask every one who drove to range for proof of drivers license and insurance.

Ya sound like a bunch of liberal clowns instead of informed gun owners.

 

[Texasshooter30]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I have to agree with Jedi, I have told people no you cannot see my paperwork before. They get all bent out of shape but that document has my ss number and everything about me on it. I will only produce it for the correct people.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Some of the "assumptions" here can quite easily end you up in jail (although temporarily) and without your items until Due process has worked its way through.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to be very technical .. only BATFE can really ask you for your stamp to examine as they are the authorizing department.

I know a lot will disagree but that is what the ATF has told me repeatly. As a curtesy you can show them to LEO but you do not have to.</div></div>

The BATFE has no power to enforce or interpret STATE LAW. If your state requires that you carry and show your paperwork to a law enforcement officer, it would be in your best interest to comply.

For example in Indiana, possession of a Machine gun, Silencer, Sawed-off Shotgun, etc. is a Felony. It is a DEFENSE if the item is properly registered with the Federal Government. If you refuse to provide documentation to an officer, then he has probable cause to arrest you and seize your items. You will then have the option to show the court your paperwork. If you still refuse because the court is not the BATFE, then you may get to serve a nice sentence that could have been avoided by just showing your paperwork.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
100% on target. A LEO in possession of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> NFA item...is now in illegal possession of an NFA item.</div></div>

Umm, no. If a police officer in the execution of his duties is in possession of an illegal item as evidence in the investigation of a crime, he has immunity. I.E. if I seize an eight ball of crack, I am not violating the law because it is in my possession until I drop it as evidence. (as a LEO I would hope you understand that) Not to mention the fact that the courts have upheld time and time again that a LEO has the ability to disarm a contact for the duration of a Terry Stop.

I sometimes carry my paperwork and sometimes not. When I am traveling I ALWAYS carry it. It's not about flying the flag of personal freedom. It's about not spending money I don't have to (bond, legal fees, etc.)

Now if it's "Joe Bob" at the range, he can get bent. I don't have to show a private citizen anything.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the "assumptions" here can quite easily end you up in jail (although temporarily) and without your items until Due process has worked its way through.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to be very technical .. only BATFE can really ask you for your stamp to examine as they are the authorizing department.

I know a lot will disagree but that is what the ATF has told me repeatly. As a curtesy you can show them to LEO but you do not have to.</div></div>

The BATFE has no power to enforce or interpret STATE LAW. If your state requires that you carry and show your paperwork to a law enforcement officer, it would be in your best interest to comply.

For example in Indiana, possession of a Machine gun, Silencer, Sawed-off Shotgun, etc. is a Felony. It is a DEFENSE if the item is properly registered with the Federal Government. If you refuse to provide documentation to an officer, then he has probable cause to arrest you and seize your items. You will then have the option to show the court your paperwork. If you still refuse because the court is not the BATFE, then you may get to serve a nice sentence that could have been avoided by just showing your paperwork.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
100% on target. A LEO in possession of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> NFA item...is now in illegal possession of an NFA item.</div></div>

Umm, no. If a police officer in the execution of his duties is in possession of an illegal item as evidence in the investigation of a crime, he has immunity. I.E. if I seize an eight ball of crack, I am not violating the law because it is in my possession until I drop it as evidence.

I sometimes carry my paperwork and sometimes not. When I am traveling I ALWAYS carry it. It's not about flying the flag of personal freedom. It's about not spending money I don't have to (bond, legal fees, etc.)

Now if it's "Joe Bob" at the range, he can get bent. I don't have to show a private citizen anything. </div></div>

you guys, I suggest you listen to Lonewolf!!!

 

[GGGN]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to inform your head of range that thou he can ask no one is required to provide such docs unless to an ATF agent.

The assumption that they have a right to ask is BS
Do they ask every one who drove to range for proof of drivers license and insurance.

Ya sound like a bunch of liberal clowns instead of informed gun owners.
</div></div>

If our range wants to see proof of ownership and we decline we have no place to shoot or can shoot just not with our toys. I think most would like to just show it and go on. It is one of the only places around that has more than 200 yds so.
Its not about being a liberal clown its about respecting the only club around so I have a place to shoot. They are covering there ass as best they can. Anytime you have 800 or more members you are bound to get some dumb ass who will see everyone else's suppressors and go home and make his own. I choose to have a place to shoot.
Sure I could refuse and I could also have my membership revoked.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Having some calm, concise, and accurate wording on history and laws is also to benefit. The associated paperwork is obviously not a license as I have heard that term used first hand. I agree that the paper work in copy should be included however; it’s not always impressive, familiar, and understood. Tax Stamp!

If the F4 is CLEO, added letterhead on justification prepared by one is a good idea for soliciting added signature. It could be worded that you as an individual are legal to own device and procession per circumstance is to be left alone. Any and all legal means…simple and concise. One of the benefits of CLEO signoff is another in-state entity offered to another official for clarity. In only trust, your words and actions mean more to F4 (keeping the same). The addition of trust print is most likely meaningless to any observer.

DNR letterhead accepting legality in utility/possession in hunting and/or use on public land is also another document to consider adding if it legally applies in your home state. You made diligence and it’s your correct address on top, per your on-hand identification, and a response per <DNR> department with contact info in closing. If the rifle and device is non-typical, which it is in my area, there is no reason to not be pre-emptive about it as the time will come in question.

Finally, interstate transportation with suppressor device. Never had an issue with this in any question with firearm but kept email response and FAQ print on transporting suppressor vs. other NFA items.

I value my time and limited freedoms. I don’t like prejudice or ignorance, so there is no reason to promote it on my time.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GGN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If our range wants to see proof of ownership and we decline we have no place to shoot or can shoot just not with our toys. I think most would like to just show it and go on. It is one of the only places around that has more than 200 yds so.
Its not about being a liberal clown its about respecting the only club around so I have a place to shoot. They are covering there ass as best they can. Anytime you have 800 or more members you are bound to get some dumb ass who will see everyone else's suppressors and go home and make his own. I choose to have a place to shoot.
Sure I could refuse and I could also have my membership revoked. </div></div>

How about your gun club respecting your rights and LAW.
Covering their ass?? WTF
Unless its a safety issue, using a CAN does not increase risk to club period, sounds like BS to me
But if your not willing to stand up for your rights i,m not gonna do it for you

 

[Doogie]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Yea I don't get this argument either. Even if you did have a homemade can I don't see how they could be charged. To me it just seems like an authority/control freak issue. Similar to the Federal (ATF) v. State (LEO) debate as well.

 

[GGGN]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I agree with you but choose not to have my card revoked. As far as standing up to them, they have not decided how they are going about it so as of now we do not have to show anything. This is something they plan on doing in the future. What am I doing? I am running for a spot on the board so that I can try to make a difference for the better, that's all I can do.

 

[windermike]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I bet you guys let the nice officer search your car when he ask too. Are rights you are willing to give up rights at all? If an officer arrests me just because I have a suppressor and don't want to show him paperwork. He is going to have some questions to answer also. My time in jail might mean his job. It is never a good idea to give away your rights to local LE officers. I don't consent to searches and no you can't see my papers.

Mike

 

[thewoodman007]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I have a question, can I lend my suppressor to a fellow shooter and have them carry my paparwork with them or is this just asking for trouble?
Thewoodman007
The maker of the Hide Fighter
www.rockriveriron.com

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thewoodman007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question, can I lend my suppressor to a fellow shooter and have them carry my paparwork with them or is this just asking for trouble?
Thewoodman007
The maker of the Hide Fighter
www.rockriveriron.com</div></div>


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[i_rep]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Only if you and your friend are fond of Nickel Braclets and paperwork.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the "assumptions" here can quite easily end you up in jail (although temporarily) and without your items until Due process has worked its way through.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to be very technical .. only BATFE can really ask you for your stamp to examine as they are the authorizing department.

I know a lot will disagree but that is what the ATF has told me repeatly. As a curtesy you can show them to LEO but you do not have to.</div></div>

The BATFE has no power to enforce or interpret STATE LAW. If your state requires that you carry and show your paperwork to a law enforcement officer, it would be in your best interest to comply.

For example in Indiana, possession of a Machine gun, Silencer, Sawed-off Shotgun, etc. is a Felony. It is a DEFENSE if the item is properly registered with the Federal Government. If you refuse to provide documentation to an officer, then he has probable cause to arrest you and seize your items. You will then have the option to show the court your paperwork. If you still refuse because the court is not the BATFE, then you may get to serve a nice sentence that could have been avoided by just showing your paperwork.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
100% on target. A LEO in possession of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> NFA item...is now in illegal possession of an NFA item.</div></div>

Umm, no. If a police officer in the execution of his duties is in possession of an illegal item as evidence in the investigation of a crime, he has immunity. I.E. if I seize an eight ball of crack, I am not violating the law because it is in my possession until I drop it as evidence. (as a LEO I would hope you understand that) Not to mention the fact that the courts have upheld time and time again that a LEO has the ability to disarm a contact for the duration of a Terry Stop.

I sometimes carry my paperwork and sometimes not. When I am traveling I ALWAYS carry it. It's not about flying the flag of personal freedom. It's about not spending money I don't have to (bond, legal fees, etc.)

Now if it's "Joe Bob" at the range, he can get bent. I don't have to show a private citizen anything. </div></div>

Spot on!

Same basic Law as CO

 

[RangerWalker71]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Great Thread, Thanks for all the info, I have all my local customers make copies, lots. Org goes in safe or safety deposit box. Then go to OfficeMax, or something close, reduce and have them laminate them. you can get 8 sheets back to back on one. Its small, waterproof. I would rather go the extra step and have more paperwork then they need, then not enough.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tackleberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reduced mine down to a size just larger than a business card and laminated them. The laminated copies stay in my billfold just like my drivers license. Very small but readable</div></div>
This is what I did for all of my tax stamps.
I goes in my wallet next to my CCP, FFL, & USPSA card.

 

[Bedlam]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I use a suppressor cozy that has a pocket on the back that's perfect for carrying copies of forms.

The paperwork is always with the cans and the cans are always with the paperwork. I cannot go shooting with the can and accidentally forget the paperwork or bring the wrong paperwork.

Just make copies, shove them in there, and never have to think about it again.

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

The paperwork is a TAX document, not a permit or license. As such, even state/local "law" can not force you to offer it up. As has been said though, doing so can certainly deprive you of "the ride". Your rights are of course yours to protect and defend, but sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. When presented with the choice of voluntarily abating a right such as this one, or going for the ride and all the ensuing hassle, I'll pony up my forms every time. It doesn't hurt, takes only a minute, and saves me TONS of grief given the alternative. The choice however, is yours.

 

[TenZero]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

Just wondering, why all the hate for range owners asking to see your stamp? "Get bent" etc? They do have a legit interest in making sure that any NFA items on THEIR property are legal. It is a perfectly plausible concern that ATF could cause them all manner of shit if someone was found in NFA violation, up to and including shutting their business or club down. Remember, without range owners, most of us wouldn't have a regular place to shoot. Most ranges are businesses or clubs on private property, with all the liability and risk that entails. If I owned a range, and I decided it was in my interest to review NFA paperwork for items used on MY property, and you told me to "get bent", you would be looking for another place to shoot. Kinda the old 'My house, My Rules' theory, and I can understand and respect a legitimate concern.
Even here in Texas, I see it becoming more and more difficult to find good places to shoot, and in my experience, it rarely pays to be a dick to the guy with the keys. YMMV

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The paperwork is a TAX document, not a permit or license. As such, even state/local "law" can not force you to offer it up.</div></div>

For those that keep saying they can't make you I have a little Latin for you... <span style="font-weight: bold">Subpoena duces tecum</span>

 

[eracer]

Re: Carry trust copy and tax stamp copy at all times?

I legally carry in any business that advertises their disdain for gun owners by posting a 'No Firearms' sign (not legally binding in Florida.)

If the owner of the store used a metal detector, and told me not to enter, I would go elsewhere. It's their right to lawfully prevent me from entering their shop.

Same with my Title II weapons at a range. I bring my stamp, and if they want to see it, I show it to them. It's their right to refuse entry.

Now, if I was shooting a Ruger Vaquero, and had a can tucked away in my bag, and they asked to inspect my bag, I'd tell them to pound sand.