Just got all the stuff I need to try case annealing for the first time (on a small scale). The only thing I'm confused about is whether to quench the newly annealed case in water or not. I've read opinions both ways. I know a lot of guys on this forum anneal. What would be the final word on this (or is there one)?
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Case annealing, to quench or not to quench that is the question?
- Thread starter My Toy
- Start date
I'm not the final word. But i don't quench in water. I just drop them into a buck when done and let them air cool. No need to get them wet.
xdeano
xdeano
Before I got my annealer and used a drill/socket I did drop them in water.
I discovered it was not necessary, it does not help or hurt the process.
I discovered it was not necessary, it does not help or hurt the process.
Drill/socket is what I plan to start with. So that settles it -- no water.
Thanks for all the replies.
I just have a box setup to catch all of the cases as they fall out of my case annealer. They are air-cooled and I don't see any reason to do otherwise.
Metallurgically, quenching brass does nothing to the brass. It is not like steel, or some other metals where a water or oil quench changes the properties of the metal, in brass, there is no change. I use water, to cool them quickly, as it gives me peace of mind that the annealing cannot travel too far down the case---it is just for my own mind that I do it.
...nor does it hurt it. Annealing is a time vs. temperature process. Annealing can occur at a lower temperature if exposed for sufficient time, and at a higher temperature for a shorter time. There are parameters, but I don't know what they are off the top of my head. For myself, I don't want to wonder if that extra second or two while the case is cooling is tending toward over-annealing. I want to know it stops NOW when I dump it in the water. It may not be necessary, but that's how I like it. I dry my brass several times during the reloading process, so it's no big thing. In fact, from annealing I go to resizing. My lube is water based, so if the cases are not completely dry it's no big deal; I'll have to redry them anyhow.
Remember this: the brass cannot get any hotter once the heat source is removed. You can only over anneal by leaving the brass in the flame for too long. It is not easy to anneal the case head with the heat source on the neck.
Drill and socket, works great, I sit in the garage and just drop them onto the concrete floor. Did 100 cases in about 20 minutes last night. BTW I anneal every other firing. About 7 seconds in the flame for each case. YMMV. I do it in the evening with just one overhead bulb turn on in the garage so I can see color on the case as soon as it starts. This "technique" has been working very well for me.
Only thing quenching does is give you a wet case.
Want to handle cases quicker? Drop them on a cookie sheet or in a metal bowl and use a small "Desk Fan" to cool them off so you don't burn your fingers.
As a side note:
I followed a similar conversation on a different forum a few years ago. Several "Long Time" reloaders chimed in on how important it was to either stand the cases on end in a pan of water heating the necks and tipping over to quench, or turn in a socket on a cordless drill and dump in a bowl of water.
A Metalurgist who'd only been shooting a short time explained in detail how the quench didn't matter.
At the end of the "conversation" and about 50 posts later, It appeared that everyone was going to follow the advice of the "oldtimers" who quenched rather than the "real expert's" advice. Apparently he hadn't been reloading long enough to be a credible expert even though he worked for a huge metal producer and dealt with the topic daily. Go Figure.
Want to handle cases quicker? Drop them on a cookie sheet or in a metal bowl and use a small "Desk Fan" to cool them off so you don't burn your fingers.
As a side note:
I followed a similar conversation on a different forum a few years ago. Several "Long Time" reloaders chimed in on how important it was to either stand the cases on end in a pan of water heating the necks and tipping over to quench, or turn in a socket on a cordless drill and dump in a bowl of water.
A Metalurgist who'd only been shooting a short time explained in detail how the quench didn't matter.
At the end of the "conversation" and about 50 posts later, It appeared that everyone was going to follow the advice of the "oldtimers" who quenched rather than the "real expert's" advice. Apparently he hadn't been reloading long enough to be a credible expert even though he worked for a huge metal producer and dealt with the topic daily. Go Figure.
Sounds like a pretty typical day for me around here too. I posted a huge thread about annealing with extreme close-up pics I had taken at the lab I worked at at the time and all the details regarding the metallurgy here (in this forum) about five/six years ago and save a few "that's interesting" comments it went pretty much to the bottom right away (granted that was before the ammo shortages 2008 and now and before reloading really took off so..).
Put down an old towel or something to absorb the impact if you're going to do that so that you don't dent the necks of your freshly annealed cases.
But, that's how he knows which ones are under-annealed, and which ones are over-annealed. Those that don't dent are under-annealed, and those that stay dented are over-annealed.
I finally got time to try annealing about 10 or 12 cases for the first time. I have some once fired mixed headstamp that I purchased already tumbled (in stainless I think--anyway it is really bright). I followed the instructions in this forum's stick on brass prep; the only difference was I didn't hold the cases with my fingers for the first eight or so - I used a cut off socket and battery drill to spin the case at a low speed.
Here are my observations and I'm hoping someone will comment on whether they think I doing this right.
I brushed some 650 degree tempilaq in all of the case mouths. I used a Bernzomatic cheapie propane torch with the flame adjusted about as high as it would go. The first two cases at 5 seconds in the hottest part of the flame didn't melt the tempilaq. It took between 6 and 7 seconds (my counting off by one thousand one, one thousand two, etc.) to melt the tempilaq. I then dropped the cases in a cardboard box. If I tried to immediately pick up the cases out of the box they actually were to hot to hold (is this normal - or a sign of over heating?).
I guess being a more concerned about over heating than under heating on the next couple of cases I painted a ring of tempilaq around the cases at about 1/4 of the way down from the mouth and some about half way down the case from the mouth. With this test at between 6 an 7 seconds to melt the tempilaq in the mouth it didn't melt the tempilaq painted on the outside of the cases. So I guess this is telling me that below the case shoulder the temperature didn't go above 650 but it still got pretty damn hot (as I said really to hot to hold). So I'm wondering how hot does the body of the case down to the case head have to get before the strength of the case is compromised?
Finally I tried a couple of cases holding them in my fingers with about 6 to 7 seconds in the flame and just before I dropped them in the card board box I could start to feel the heat. After they were dropped in the box-- if I tried to pick them up they were to hot to hold.
My final observation is that there was some discoloration of the case neck and shoulder but not a lot; actually I'm color blind but I wouldn't say the color of the neck and shoulder changed (I've seen some factory annealed cases that looked blue) -- the brass just looked a darker shade of brass color. Lastly the temp in the garage that I did this in was only about 45 degrees -- will I have different results (as far as time in the flame during the summer when my garage is probably between 80 and 90 degrees?
Thanks for enduring my long winded observations; your comment would be greatly appreciated.
Here are my observations and I'm hoping someone will comment on whether they think I doing this right.
I brushed some 650 degree tempilaq in all of the case mouths. I used a Bernzomatic cheapie propane torch with the flame adjusted about as high as it would go. The first two cases at 5 seconds in the hottest part of the flame didn't melt the tempilaq. It took between 6 and 7 seconds (my counting off by one thousand one, one thousand two, etc.) to melt the tempilaq. I then dropped the cases in a cardboard box. If I tried to immediately pick up the cases out of the box they actually were to hot to hold (is this normal - or a sign of over heating?).
I guess being a more concerned about over heating than under heating on the next couple of cases I painted a ring of tempilaq around the cases at about 1/4 of the way down from the mouth and some about half way down the case from the mouth. With this test at between 6 an 7 seconds to melt the tempilaq in the mouth it didn't melt the tempilaq painted on the outside of the cases. So I guess this is telling me that below the case shoulder the temperature didn't go above 650 but it still got pretty damn hot (as I said really to hot to hold). So I'm wondering how hot does the body of the case down to the case head have to get before the strength of the case is compromised?
Finally I tried a couple of cases holding them in my fingers with about 6 to 7 seconds in the flame and just before I dropped them in the card board box I could start to feel the heat. After they were dropped in the box-- if I tried to pick them up they were to hot to hold.
My final observation is that there was some discoloration of the case neck and shoulder but not a lot; actually I'm color blind but I wouldn't say the color of the neck and shoulder changed (I've seen some factory annealed cases that looked blue) -- the brass just looked a darker shade of brass color. Lastly the temp in the garage that I did this in was only about 45 degrees -- will I have different results (as far as time in the flame during the summer when my garage is probably between 80 and 90 degrees?
Thanks for enduring my long winded observations; your comment would be greatly appreciated.
Tempilaq is bullshit because it doesn't account for the other half of how annealing works: time (which seems to be a very hard concept for many to grasp).
I don't know if you'll be able to see it or not (since you're color blind) but the best way to do it is to take a piece of brass into a dark room and heat it up via whatever method you're wanting to use. Count off the seconds until the brass turns a dark red and that's the amount of time it takes to anneal your brass. Then you can repeat the process over and over in a lit room counting off the seconds and you'll be good to go so long as you use the same method over and over.
I don't understand peoples' claims that tempilaq "liquefies" or "disappears" when it gets hot. Every time I have used that shit, it turns black when heated. Then I have to scour it off the case. Fucking mess. And no, I am not putting it directly into the flame. I watch the silver bluish color change migrate down the shoulder into the upper body, then I know I am done. The neck is probably another second from turning red hot before I pull it out of the flame.
I still hold my opinion that the best, reliable way to anneal brass is via induction with a timer. However, the means to do this requires a lot of planning and experience with electronics, which I lack. Plus, it is not very cheap either. For now, I use a blow torch and my hands.
You're 100% correct but like you mentioned, it's outside of 99% of people's knowledge/skill-set/ability/etc. It's actually fairly easy to set up and with shit you can buy at Home Depot/electronics stores but it's pretty easy to kill yourself with a set up if you're not 100%.
I was more intimidated by the possibility of spending like 400$ on a piece of equipment I know little about, along with a bunch of circuits and the thing wouldn't work right.
For now, I'll just watch as an outsider to see if someone comes up with a good unit for production, or at least some prebuilt components that can be pieced together.
My dos centavos:
I use Tempilaq to find the timing with excellent results.
Tempilaq goes inside the neck, not outside (just throwing this out there for those who don't know)
I clean my brass after annealing, so the tempilaq gets cleaned out. No problemo.
Use the tempilaq to get your intitial timing, and recheck it every so often. If your torch was pre-heated the timing should not change on you more than about half a second.
Outside temperature definitely makes a difference. Always find your timing for each batch.
Let your torch run a while so the nozzle can come up to temperature before starting to anneal. A cool nozzle will throw your time determination way off.
Make sure your brass has had time to stabilize in temperature before annealing as well.
Buy a cheap electronic metronome. It is far more precise than counting in your head, and you can watch your annealing while you listen to the cadence.
Use a nozzle that gives you a single inner flame that comes to a narrow point.
Keep the flame down, not full on, directed at the neck/shoulder junction and aimed more toward the neck. I go with a 3/4" to 1" inner flame, and just touch the tip of that flame to the brass. Watch that the length of the flame doesn't change on you.
I use Tempilaq to find the timing with excellent results.
Tempilaq goes inside the neck, not outside (just throwing this out there for those who don't know)
I clean my brass after annealing, so the tempilaq gets cleaned out. No problemo.
Use the tempilaq to get your intitial timing, and recheck it every so often. If your torch was pre-heated the timing should not change on you more than about half a second.
Outside temperature definitely makes a difference. Always find your timing for each batch.
Let your torch run a while so the nozzle can come up to temperature before starting to anneal. A cool nozzle will throw your time determination way off.
Make sure your brass has had time to stabilize in temperature before annealing as well.
Buy a cheap electronic metronome. It is far more precise than counting in your head, and you can watch your annealing while you listen to the cadence.
Use a nozzle that gives you a single inner flame that comes to a narrow point.
Keep the flame down, not full on, directed at the neck/shoulder junction and aimed more toward the neck. I go with a 3/4" to 1" inner flame, and just touch the tip of that flame to the brass. Watch that the length of the flame doesn't change on you.
Last edited:
I doubt you'll see anything like that any time soon. They are simply too dangerous to sell to the general public who is simply too stupid to use such a device. Again you can build one pretty easily but I doubt anyone would take on the liability of selling one anytime soon.
Almost exactly the method I use except I pass on the Metronome (played in band when I was a lot younger so I have a great sense of "rhythm") and I hate the tempilac. Instead I use it's "cousin", a tempilstik which is a heat crayon that melts at a given temperature. I use the 750 degree crayon for the first case of so just to get the correct "count" (time) for that flame setting.
I direct the flame at the shoulder but making sure the neck is also "washed" by the flame. After a couple seconds I pull the case sideways from the flame, keeping one side still in the flame and touch the crayon to the case neck. When I get the right "count" to have enough heat in the case to just melt the crayon (leaves a smear on the case that comes off with a scrape of the fingernail) I just drop that case and hold all the rest of the cases in the flame for the amount of time determined to cause the crayon to melt.
I anneal when the cases are fresh from the SS Pin tumbling and when I reach the desired temp a distinct blue line forms. Shiny brass color on one side and a slightly blue/gray on the neck/shoulder side. By keeping the case neck in the flame it lessens the gray/brown oxide from forming that often occurs when it's exposed to the air while heating. Just an observation on what's going on during my process.
Does someone have a temperature vs time curve to get brass properly annealed. And is it feasible to use an infrared thermometer to measure brass temp? Might be hard if it detects the flame.
No, you're not going to really find such a thing because there are more factors in such a table than just temp/time. Time/Temp is going to vary based on the composition of the brass, how thick it is, how hot your heat source is, ambient temp, etc. etc. etc...
You just need to develop a method that works for you and stick to it. Ar IR thermo is over kill, you guys are totally over thinking this.
