Case Neck Tension with Stainless Steel cleaned brass

[mrobles3808]

I am experiencing difficulty, or at least more than normal seating pressure when seating bullets in "squeaky" clean brass. I should add, I am using type s bushnig dies and am using a bushing to achieve .001-.0015" neck tension. I would say when I first started reloading I was probably making more consistent and accurate ammo as opposed to now and I think it has come down to how I am cleaning my brass. After some frustration, I bought a tumbler (like I used to use) with walnut media and processed some brass -- bullets seated like butter. I then tried some SS cleaned brass and bullets once again seated tough.

I understand the reason for all of this, but never paid too much attention to how it was affecting my accuracy. It is! Bullets seated in media processed brass showed to be much more accurate (group wise) with now vertical stringing. SS media process brass with tough seating all had at least two vertical flyers out of five shot groups. Now, with SS cleaned brass, I tried using some imperial dry lube on the inside of the necks before seating bullets and this helped -- it also showed on paper.

I thought I'd share my experiences and would like to see if others have had similar results. I may go back to the old fashioned tumbler method from now on, or lube my case necks before bullet seating.

 

[Xander3Zero]

Very interesting. Would you say this is just because the SS media leaves small gouges or imperfections on the inside of the case neck?


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[flashhole]

Do you use a deburring tool, inside and out, after you SS clean the brass?

 

[canezach]

I know you said you understand why, but my reply is more for anyone reading the thread who doesn't. You've likely cleaned out all carbon residue from the inside of your case mouths. Regular tumbling leaves a carbon film that allows ease of seating. Personally, I made a case neck dip station, for lack of a better term. It's a small Tupperware with some very small metal balls (think really small BBs) and graphite powder. After cleaning, sizing, trimming, etc, I dip the case necks into the graphite covered balls so the powder is transferred to the inside of the case neck.

 

[918v]

What proportion of soap to acid do you use? I use one tablespoon of Palmolive to .8cc of Lemishine to one gal of water. I don't have hard seating issues even with .003" of neck tension. I found, through experimentation, that too much Lemishine will acid etch the brass and cause hard seating.

 

[918v]

It's an issue because people use the wrong proportions of chemicals

 

[Marksman10x]

Do you use a deburring tool, inside and out, after you SS clean the brass?

This. The case necks are not too clean, but they do need to be cleaned-up.

The SS pins rolling over the case neck create small burrs, these need to be removed. Use the deburring tool then finish with some steel wool and your bullets will seat buttery smooth again. Accuracy should be as good as anything. That being said, I use regular dry media as I find no advantage with the SS tumbling.

 

[the m700 project]

I know the ss media work hardens the cases a bit but i dont think the amount would cause you too much trouble

 

[culater]

Try 0000 steel wool with a bronze brush to polish the necks. It was suggested to me by a guy on 6mmbr.com. Have not tried it yet but i will this weekend. Also im looking into a hydroseater by 21centery reloading. So i can identify case seating pressure and separate out any bad cases. I understand what you saying about bullets seating to hard or soft. I belive this will help me at longer ranges and keep my vertical to a mimumm. I personally ultrasonic clean my brass and dry in a food dehydrator.

 

[mrobles3808]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have decided to forget the extra hassle of wet tumbling and potential issues/extra work, that I am going back to media tumbling. I’ll miss the super shiny, but I do recall more consistency when the brass was polished up with cob.

 

[mdmp5]

If you’re seeing the necks becoming too grippy because of being too clean, simply cut down your tumble time to less than 2 hrs. I’ve never suffered any accuracy loss due to wet tumbling.

 

[wapiti16b]

I'm probably full of shit ! , but I've read that removal of carbon ( squeaky clean SS tumbled brass ) can over a moderate amount of time between shooting sessions create an ionic bond between two dissimilar metals . I've tried both and a vibratory tumbler works best for me , however I have not tried dipping my necks in any type of media as of yet . I'm betting that SS tumbling followed by dipping may be the way to go due the cleaner primer pockets but I wonder if anyone has done a test between the two with proper annealing as annealing may have a greater effect than either method .
My method is to tumble in a vibratory tumbler trim if needed , bushing neck size anneal and chamfer .

 

[canezach]

I'm probably full of shit ! , but I've read that removal of carbon ( squeaky clean SS tumbled brass ) can over a moderate amount of time between shooting sessions create an ionic bond between two dissimilar metals . I've tried both and a vibratory tumbler works best for me , however I have not tried dipping my necks in any type of media as of yet . I'm betting that SS tumbling followed by dipping may be the way to go due the cleaner primer pockets but I wonder if anyone has done a test between the two with proper annealing as annealing may have a greater effect than either method .
My method is to tumble in a vibratory tumbler trim if needed , bushing neck size anneal and chamfer .

I anneal, SS tumble, and dip my case necks in graphite. I have no scientific proof to offer that it works any better than tumbling in rice, corn cob, lizard bedding, ninja throwing stars, or soda can pop tops. I do know that it works for me. I don't have any unexplained fliers. I can't say whether it's the annealing, the graphite, the bushing die, the stainless media I use (I use stainless chips instead of the standard pins), or voodoo.

 

[918v]

If you’re seeing the necks becoming too grippy because of being too clean, simply cut down your tumble time to less than 2 hrs. I’ve never suffered any accuracy loss due to wet tumbling.

I tumble about 10 hours, overnight or while I'm at work, and don't have these grip issues.

 

[eicas]

Ive noticed the same thing with sonic cleaning. Process now is to put them in the tumbler with walnut media/Nu Finish for an hour or two at the very end. I run them thru the inside neck uniformer one last time (first time is after collet neck and shoulder bump) to clean up any boo-boos they received in the tumbler. They come out nice and shiney to boot. Everyone has their own anal-retentive procedure. Lol

 

[J!m]

This ss tumbling thing is new to me. If there is not a good technical reason to do it, I don’t get it.

I get shiny brass with walnut shells in a regular vibratory tumbler. I think it’s a cabelas brand. My Lyman died and that orange top is on the cabelas base. I also added a timer.

Anyway, my “trick” for clean, smooth brass is that I add roughly a tablespoon of “Nu Finish” car wax stuff to the media. Horrible to apply to your car but good for tumbling brass. I tumble strips of paper towel every so often to clean the media a bit but you can run a few hundred rounds if it’s reasonably clean before needing to clean the media.

To quote Han Solo: “she may not look like much but she’s got it where it counts”

 

[918v]

With stainless steel media, you can tumble forever without having to clean the media.

Second, you don't have to worry about dirt. You can tumble horribly dirty, muddy, and corroded cases without worry. If your cases land in the dirt, that dirt transfers to corncob or walnut media and pretty soon you end up with abrasive media.

Third, wet tumbling cleans the inside of the brass including primer pockets.

 

[steve123]

For me, using x47l cases, and being on almost 35 cycles in the last 10 years, I needed the inside of the cases cleaned once in awhile, thus I needed SS media wet tumble or sonic cleaning.

I found sonic cleaning to be a pain unless a guy has a very powerful commercial unit which can get expensive(friend has one). My $250 unit sucked and it took a long time to clean a small amount of brass. It was stupid having to push the buttons again every half hour too because it timed out. And one of the whatchamacallits broke so I had to send it in and pay shipping. Drying the brass and putting it in the vibtator to shine it, then checking flash holes, just got a bit silly. I'd use the NECO mopped into the neck right before seating and didn't need to trim as much or debur/chamfer if not trimming.

I'll repeat once again, regardless of whether you trimmed or not, YOU HAVE to debur and chamfer everytime when wet tumbling, the mouths get peened on the inside of the mouth and the outside too, from a little, to a lot, depending on different factors. If you don't remove the brass at the mouth the bullet will get scratched and the brass on the outside of the mouth will be push outward and might even push against the chamber wall!!! Mopping NECO into the neck has benefits, like making your neck tension more consistent from case to case. I use .003 neck tension so the bullets hold well even though they have lube in the neck and using a tad more neck tension is thought to lower ES, but I haven't experimented so...

Maybe I'm wrong but it stands to reason that case mouths vibrate cleaned get banged around as well just a little??? I'd still trim every other time in the past anyway and debur/ chamfer.

Like I mentioned earlier, don't do anything to the brass every other firing except wipe it off, maybe even 3 cycles before cleaning, paper towels are your friend. It's the best of all worlds if you can get past not having perfectly clean cases. I did that for 30+ years. This is common with benchrest shooters during a match, not cleaning their cases except to run a scotch bright pad on the outside of the neck and brush the inside.

And there's no reason why one can't use a combination of all these methods to advantage.

I know a guy who shoots a Dasher that SS cleans, rarely trims, but deburs and chamfers every time. You'd freak at his 100Y groups and he often wins steel matches.

My 6x47l is a hammer, often touching splats on steel at 800Y.

 

[TripleBull]

I've read that removal of carbon ( squeaky clean SS tumbled brass ) can over a moderate amount of time between shooting sessions create an ionic bond between two dissimilar metals.

Since brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and there is not much galvanic potential. See this:

http://www.structx.com/Material_Properties_001.html

And this:

https://www.galvanizeit.org/design-...n-considerations/dissimilar-metals-in-contact

An ionic bond is when a positively charged ion (cation) reacts with a negatively charged ion (anion). If you put a salt solution between two dissimilar metals, you effectively make a battery so if there is a path for current flow, you can get a reaction. But for clean metal versus clean metal, it gets much more complicated. There is a phenomenon known as "cold weld" but according to experts, the pressure of a bullet against the neck is not enough to make it happen. But just for giggles, go pull a bullet from a cartridge you just loaded then do it with one you loaded a year ago. I'd guess that oxygen from the air is involved and that there is a tiny bit of galvanic corrosion.

 

[wapiti16b]

Since brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and there is not much galvanic potential. See this:

http://www.structx.com/Material_Properties_001.html

And this:

https://www.galvanizeit.org/design-...n-considerations/dissimilar-metals-in-contact

An ionic bond is when a positively charged ion (cation) reacts with a negatively charged ion (anion). If you put a salt solution between two dissimilar metals, you effectively make a battery so if there is a path for current flow, you can get a reaction. But for clean metal versus clean metal, it gets much more complicated. There is a phenomenon known as "cold weld" but according to experts, the pressure of a bullet against the neck is not enough to make it happen. But just for giggles, go pull a bullet from a cartridge you just loaded then do it with one you loaded a year ago. I'd guess that oxygen from the air is involved and that there is a tiny bit of galvanic corrosion.

OK , so I did say in my post that I'm probably full of shit ! , and I guess I got my bonding terminology wrong but it just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the internet .
I stand corrected !
Too much Star Trek ?
Again ! , I've also read that many shooters refrain from using graphite in any form in their barrels due to its abrasive possibilities . I wonder if their is any credence to this and if anyone has tried HBN in a media for case neck lube ?
I'm always open to new information and methods and await such !

 

[orkan]

https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/clean-brass-with-rice

I used to wet tumble.

... used to.

 

[J!m]

I don't let my brass get dirty in the mud etc. I tend my rifle brass and the pistol brass is not used if it's that dirty.

I don't anneal so it is showing cracks before other problems arise. I don't shoot "exotic" calibers so brass is still pretty cheap for me.

But it is a good discussion and I'm learning stuff, despite my thick skull.

 

[918v]

OK , so I did say in my post that I'm probably full of shit ! , and I guess I got my bonding terminology wrong but it just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the internet .
I stand corrected !
Too much Star Trek ?
Again ! , I've also read that many shooters refrain from using graphite in any form in their barrels due to its abrasive possibilities . I wonder if their is any credence to this and if anyone has tried HBN in a media for case neck lube ?
I'm always open to new information and methods and await such !

When I first started wet tumbling, I once forgot to add the lemishine. I tumbled for 8 to 9 hours overnight and when I got up in the morning and opened up the tumbler I noticed that all my brass had turned purple. It wasn't corroded, just coated purple that looked much like bluing on a polished steel handgun.

This was caused by oxidation which the stainless pins polished into a shine. Sometimes when I add too much soap and not enough lemishine I see some of this purple coating on the brass in areas where the pins can't impact as much as the outside of the case, like the extractor groove. Sectioning such a case reveals that the purple coating is still present on the inside of the case. This purple coating, unless burned off by annealing, ensures smooth bullet seating and prevents any ionic bonding.

If you add too much lemishine this coating does not form and the brass comes out less golden and more white in color. It is this specific condition that causes hard seating which is due to galling. Factory new brass is coated with wax, so are bullets. This is to facilitate smooth bullet seating. If you ever buy factory new LC brass you'll see it is practically dripping with wax.

So if you wet tumble using the wrong proportions of soap to acid, you can salvage that brass by a tumbling it in some corn cob and some nufinish or some other sort a car wax. But if you tumble using the correct proportions of soap and acid you'll never have any seating problems. Furthermore, you can remedy any of this by dipping the neck in some graphite. There is no harm to the barrel. Powder is coated with graphite. Are you going to stop using powder?

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

I’m not a bench rest shooter, but I do reload, and I like the super clean brass that stainless steel tumbling gives you. Now that said, after reading this thread, maybe this would be a possible solution to those who want polished brass and concerned about accuracy that could possibly be affected by SS tumbling. Why not SS tumble to get the brite shiny brass, then tumble in walnut for about 10 minutes to get the “dust” or slick surface inside the neck?
Thoughts? Am I thinking about this wrong?
The only reason I went with SS is because I don’t like picking walnut out of flasholes.

 

[orkan]

The "slick surface" comes from the carbon residue left from firing. It's not magically deposited during tumbling.

 

[TripleBull]

Too much Star Trek ?

There's no such thing as too much Star Trek!

Again ! , I've also read that many shooters refrain from using graphite in any form in their barrels due to its abrasive possibilities . I wonder if their is any credence to this and if anyone has tried HBN in a media for case neck lube ?

Some forms of graphite are abrasive, like compressed graphite or graphite with a binder. The stuff you put on bullets or brass necks is a lubricant, so I wouldn't worry about that being an abrasive. See post #5 here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?106895-Is-graphite-to-abrasive

 

[wapiti16b]

So would you say the graphite used as a dry lubricant on locks is GTG and if not what source do you recommend ?

 

[padom]

So would you say the graphite used as a dry lubricant on locks is GTG and if not what source do you recommend ?

Imperial Dry Neck Lube

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012767842/imperial-dry-neck-lube-1-oz-powder

 

[mdmp5]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about with this claim that stainless media makes the insides of necks spotless. I’ve been tumbling since 09 with steel and never have I seen a mirror finish inside anything other than a pistol case.

I’ve never had an accuracy issue with stainless. Here’s a question too: if bad accuracy is attributed to clean necks, is it safe to assume that the first firing on new brass shoots like shit?

 

[orkan]

Here’s a question too: if bad accuracy is attributed to clean necks, is it safe to assume that the first firing on new brass shoots like shit?

First firing always shoots worse than second firing in everything I've ever worked with.

... but if you aren't shooting around 1/4moa or so, you'd likely not notice.

 

[mdmp5]

First firing always shoots worse than second firing in everything I've ever worked with.

... but if you aren't shooting around 1/4moa or so, you'd likely not notice.

Ok I see your point. I’ve always attributed improvement in precision on subsequent firings to other factors, such as fire forming. But that is if it happens at all. I’ve shot brand new 338 brass just as tight as the second or 3rd time around.

 

[steve123]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about with this claim that stainless media makes the insides of necks spotless. I’ve been tumbling since 09 with steel and never have I seen a mirror finish inside anything other than a pistol case.

I’ve never had an accuracy issue with stainless. Here’s a question too: if bad accuracy is attributed to clean necks, is it safe to assume that the first firing on new brass shoots like shit?

Not for sure all have a lube but some new brass has a type of lube in the neck. The one I notice most is the pinkish stuff in winchester brass.

 

[orkan]

Not for sure all have a lube but some new brass has a type of lube in the neck. The one I notice most is the pinkish stuff in winchester brass.

New brass is actually quite dirty. Left over lubes/detergents from the manufacturing process tend to be fairly slick.

 

[Milo 2.5]

First firing always shoots worse than second firing in everything I've ever worked with.

... but if you aren't shooting around 1/4moa or so, you'd likely not notice.

Historically, Lapua 6.5x47 brass can offer up a new firing that can't be matched after 1st firing, but again, minutely.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Off topic some, I think cleaning brass in a decent sonic cleaner can have way more adverse effects than ss tumbling as far as clean necks go. And say you did get necks so clean it's caused issues, I would not bank on Imperial neck lube, or any other to bring you back to where you were, good product, but dynamics were altered. I'd coat bullets first, moly, hbn, or ws2.